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Because people use your same arguments to justify invading homosexual's private lives, their bedrooms, etc.
Im straight....but I don't have privacy either.
Government and such know everything of me. Internet leaves permanent traces, taxes, the grid, administration, banks, telephone company's, social networking...
In my opinion, the best way to approach this would be to help her examine the way her trade is impacting her view. Its not really all that helpful to describe it as positive, negative or neutral from a society/universal karma point of view. However, if she is beginning to question her connection to this webcam-sex job, its possible that she's trying to outgrow it, or part of her is recognizing her dissatisfaction.
There are many, many pitfalls that arise when we bear ourselves to others, in all senses of the words. To do so for money can be especially difficult. It can lead to a sense of empathic estrangement from our own skin, as we place tangible value on self, it often devalues it. Being truly intimate and honest with others can be difficult even in the best conditions.
The moral declarations that have flown about this topic seem well written and for the most part worth examining. But, how is her life growing her? That is almost certainly a great area for her examination.
With warmth,
Matt
excellent..
i'm working hard on letting go terms like good and evil, and I wasn't planning on using them towards her. It's still a bit difficult for me to express myself without using those words, altough I don't mean them lol hahaha maybe a bit confusing...
I'm gonna let her do the talking and just ask questions mostly about what she feels, if she thinks it adds something, if she is happy (most important i think) with what she does in life.
Another factor: for future employment particularly in work with children this cannot go on her resume. So it may be more money now for a difficulty finding employment later.
she will have to explain to her first real boss why she didn't have a sidejob when she was a student. At least I would never put a job like this on my resume.
It can be harmfull to her career later, you're right about that....
Smells like fear to me, "putting things in perspective". She is still a feeling human being in than "dirty" act, who has exactly the same conditioned mind than we do. If you would do it, would you condemn yourself as being dirty afterwards? But after the webcam thing is over, life continues, and the "dirty" changes to something else, and changes to something else. Its impossible to divide one human being into "whore" and "mother", and trying to interact only with the other side. Because we all have the both sides, we all have strange fantacys etc We all use violence daily in such a clever ways..
Imo it doesnt matter what people do really, the names "whore" or "mother" are just words or samsaric reality, witch doesnt ever exist in a way. Mother, child, whore, clean, dirty.. just made up words so that i can keep the reality under my control instead of interacting with the reality witch is there.
There is always violence involved when we put things on boxes or "in perspective". What i regard as noble behaviour is the choises and the emotions that one makes after he/she is out from hes/her comfort zone. For example if you would date with an angel, who turns out to be an ex prostitute, thats when life really mesures you Thats when we really see if youv done your metta bhavana practice right :crazy: I fail on this every day.
A close friend of mine (girl) is a student, has a boyfriend, doesn't cheat or anything etc. As a job on the side, she has webcamsex with men.
This earns twice as much as I make with a regular job, and three times as much with some job she otherwise would have. So it means more time to study and relax. Her boyfriend doesnt have much problems with it, he's sure aint pleased with it, but he understands the advantages of a job like this, and he doesn't find the men she cams with a threat.
Lately she came up with the question wether it's ethical or not what she does with her job. She nows i'm a bit of a buddhist, and she wanted my opinion about it.
Taken from the third precept and partially the fourth precept I think it's not the right thing to do. I've been trying to explain this to her, but i'm finding it difficult to find the words for it.
So.......inspire me with your words and points of view...
I can see no reason, karmically, morally, dharmically or otherwise why this could be considered wrong, in any sense.
To say otherwise I suspect is just spouting ye olde man-world insecurity driven pointless negativity.
There may be pragmatic reasons she might want to not do it, eg concerns about videos of her being found by her great grandkids etc. But that's not about Dharma or morality.
In my opinion, the best way to approach this would be to help her examine the way her trade is impacting her view. Its not really all that helpful to describe it as positive, negative or neutral from a society/universal karma point of view. However, if she is beginning to question her connection to this webcam-sex job, its possible that she's trying to outgrow it, or part of her is recognizing her dissatisfaction.
There are many, many pitfalls that arise when we bear ourselves to others, in all senses of the words. To do so for money can be especially difficult. It can lead to a sense of empathic estrangement from our own skin, as we place tangible value on self, it often devalues it. Being truly intimate and honest with others can be difficult even in the best conditions.
The moral declarations that have flown about this topic seem well written and for the most part worth examining. But, how is her life growing her? That is almost certainly a great area for her examination.
With warmth,
Matt
Wow
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Zowy! Don't recognize that one.
The kammic concern of my friends and family is my concern. If they are in trouble it is my concern. If my sister was selling internet porn it would be my concern. And I trust that if I was heading into trouble it would be their concern.
Nope.
you cannot make their decisions for them.
You cannot be the one to wilfully change their kamma.
Your kamma is your responsibility.
Theirs - is theirs.
If you think you are responsible for, or should have a concern into why or what happens to their kamma, then fine - but in that case, broaden that to include everyone you interact and engage with....
Surely confining yourself to your immediate circle is limiting.
if you are going to show concern for the kamma of friends and family, then you need to broaden your scope. You can't be this selective....if you feel you should influence and affect your friends and family, then does it not follow that you need to be concerned with the world at large?
You can't have one without the other.....
Surely confining yourself to your immediate circle is limiting.
if you are going to show concern for the kamma of friends and family, then you need to broaden your scope.
I think a 'confined concern' is better than an 'apathetic regard' to other people's suffering. If you're just stating that we are not responsible for other people's karma, that's fine of course. Its not that we should own what does not belong to us... but if we stand unmoved by a loved one's suffering, then I think we've moved into nihilism, not liberation.
With warmth,
Matt
edit: And, zen and jaakko, thank you for the kind words.
Nope.
you cannot make their decisions for them.
You cannot be the one to wilfully change their kamma.
Your kamma is your responsibility.
Theirs - is theirs.
If you think you are responsible for, or should have a concern into why or what happens to their kamma, then fine .....
Ultimately I am responsible for my own kamma, and they theirs, but yes of course it is my concern.
- but in that case, broaden that to include everyone you interact and engage with....
Surely confining yourself to your immediate circle is limiting.
if you are going to show concern for the kamma of friends and family, then you need to broaden your scope. You can't be this selective....if you feel you should influence and affect your friends and family, then does it not follow that you need to be concerned with the world at large?
You can't have one without the other.....
Sounds deeply unethical. Do you ever look at porn? I have on and off over the years. What does it do to you? I found it to be a potential whirlpool of sexual obession. Now with all the online porn you want at your finger tips, that whirlpool has become a multibillion dollar sucking black hole. Not a good thing to be associated with methinks.
I have to say Ive never found porn to be addictive or obsessive etc. Ive certainly only ever spent very little money on it. I understand though that for some people they get totally sucked in and cant escape.
I dont think that porn itself is evil or should be banned. I think the problem is within the person. If they arent addicted to porn it would be something else such as gambling anyway. You can take away the porn or the gambling but you cant take away the addiction.
I think it can be a comfort for lonely single people if used sparsely. It can be good for couples trying to spice things too.
I just find its not much of a turn on. Its sort of like a pile of meat on a plate that you can eat whenever you want, not very appealing. Its most certainly not erotic in anyway. Most of the time its downright ugly and the actors are all so plastic and unnatural looking. I look at those women with bloated breasts that dont move , big bottled blonde hair dos ,lashings of badly applied makeup ,orange fake tans and prepubescent looking shaved genitals and think to myself how is this attractive? Why do they think that this is what men want?? Maybe some men do like it but for the life of me I cant see why!
If the porn industry made it difficult to access they would make even more money because we all want what we cant have. I find that because its so available I just don't want it.
I have to say Ive never found porn to be addictive or obsessive etc. Ive certainly only ever spent very little money on it. I understand though that for some people they get totally sucked in and cant escape. .
Its sort of like a pile of meat on a plate that you can eat whenever you want, not very appealing. Its most certainly not erotic in anyway. Most of the time its downright ugly and the actors are all so plastic and unnatural looking. I look at those women with bloated breasts that dont move , big bottled blonde hair dos ,lashings of badly applied makeup ,orange fake tans and prepubescent looking shaved genitals and think to myself how is this attractive?.
From the perspective of the Buddhist path, I don't know of any teacher who say's participating in or consuming porn is skillful.
From the perspective of the Buddhist path, I don't know of any teacher who say's participating in or consuming porn is skillful.
May not be skilful but may temporarily satisfy ones libido or spice up ones marriage which cant be a bad thing. I don't believe in living a life of asceticism. I prefer balance.
It can be a "bad thing" when the partner who is using porn wants what he sees (and it usually is the male). This can result in dissatisfaction with his partner - she's too hairy, not toned, breasts are small and squishy etc. It can also mean wanting different sex acts and positions that his partner finds humiliating or uncomfortable or even painful. It can lead to seeing his partner and other women as objects to be used. It can lead to escalation of desire - seeking more extreme porn, using it more frequently and a consequent introduction of secrecy and mistrust within the marriage.
Some marriages may benefit from some types of porn, especially if watched together. However, there are dangers as outlined above.
Not watching porn does not make one an ascetic either! There are plenty of people who are capable of satisfying, lively, rich sexual relationships who don't use porn.
It can be a "bad thing" when the partner who is using porn wants what he sees (and it usually is the male). This can result in dissatisfaction with his partner - she's too hairy, not toned, breasts are small and squishy etc. It can also mean wanting different sex acts and positions that his partner finds humiliating or uncomfortable or even painful. It can lead to seeing his partner and other women as objects to be used. It can lead to escalation of desire - seeking more extreme porn, using it more frequently and a consequent introduction of secrecy and mistrust within the marriage.
Some marriages may benefit from some types of porn, especially if watched together. However, there are dangers as outlined above.
Not watching porn does not make one an ascetic either! There are plenty of people who are capable of satisfying, lively, rich sexual relationships who don't use porn.
metta
Its possible to put a negative spin on anything. You could say that wearing sexy underwear is "bad" because it leads to sex without the underwear feeling not as exciting or the wife feeling like shes not attractive to the husband without the underwear. This could be said for any fetish item or even any number of non sexual activities.
Some people can take drugs occasionally and have a good time where as others get completely addicted after one try. I think it comes down to the individual case.
We are creatures of habit and so we must be ever vigilant of the habits we are forming.
In a relationship both people need very open communication all the time. If they watch porn and one person is feeling unhappy about the effects then it needs to be worked out between them. If a single person is feeling addicted to porn and feels out of control then they need to seek help.
Its childish and unrealistic to say porn is "bad" or "evil". Porn is always going to be available as is every other activity, substance or trigger. It comes down to the individual taking responsibility for their own actions.
That's the thing, not from a moralistic view, but strictly a practice view. Temporary satisfaction of _____ yet again, is issue we are examining. It isn't bad to continue that strategy, just not practice.
Oh my God...People do that!? I've seen people giving music lessons through the internet, but can you imagine people using paypal for virtual sex? lol that is crazy.
Maybe she should try being a fortune cookie writer or a pet detective. Or she could play online games to exhaustion and sell game money for real money. I've heard you can actually make good cash with this last one.
Its childish and unrealistic to say porn is "bad" or "evil". Porn is always going to be available as is every other activity, substance or trigger.
It seems odd to me that you consider the possibilities only a 'spin'. Porn has the direct and probable outcome of having someone other than your partner become your object of sexual fantasy. Certainly for the time you engage in the viewing, and possibly longer. It doesn't make it a bad action, but it does undermine intimacy, which is a better fuel for sexual union than lust.
I think it was very well pointed when Fran suggested that its possible some relationships could benefit from it by watching it together.
Don't be fooled into thinking that watching porn is not a sexual participation with others.... it is voyeurism, which is participation.
With warmth,
Matt
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
edited July 2010
possibly TMI, but whatever.
what i have found:
i like watching porn. in the past, i have probably flirted with an addiction.
it is: easy... always available... distracting... interesting... never ending...
and ultimately: makes me feel disgusting... numbing... decreases my sex drive and interest in my partner... creates this weird need within me which i do not understand at all...
i don't know what it is but, the more i watch porn... the more frequently i want to. it doesn't ever satisfy, it only creates more need. masturbation is not like this (although, i guess some can be addicted to masturbation too). in the past, i found that i could go months without watching it...but the minute i open that door, that desire comes right back. even watching it with a partner is weird. you may argue that it can be helpful for relationships, i think it just makes you feel okay about being turned on by someone else. i'm not suggesting it's cheating or anything, just that if you examine it more closely, you might find that what you find stimulting is not likely to actually create a beneficial effect on your relationship at all.
end result? i try not to watch porn anymore. i've noticed nothing helpful ever came from it. i don't think it's as harmless as people like to pretend.
like all journeys to self discovery, i found porn to be interesting at first - a curiosity factor. It was slightly erotic, a little exciting and even entertaining but then it became numbing, then artificial, then pointless. I'll still watch it if it is thrown at me, afterall, i am human but i've lost the urge to go looking for it even though it is so abundant on the net. In other words, i'll watch a sex scene in a movie, but if it is a porn movie, i'd more than likely just walk away after the first few minutes turn to 'meh'...
and you are very right in that it is not as harmless as people pretend. how i deal with it is that i look at it as two (or more) people fornicating... like animals on a discovery channel special and though sometimes it is a freak show, the novelty always eventually wear off.
The Blessed Buddha once said:
Friends, you should abandon all desire and any lust for whatever there is
impermanent, vanishing, and neither me, nor mine, nor owned by any self!
And what is impermanent, suffering & neither me, nor mine, nor any self?
The eyes and all forms are impermanent, suffering, and all impersonal...
The ears and all sounds are transient, affliction, and without any self...
The nose and all smells are fleeting, miserable, and not belonging to any..
The tongue & all flavours are temporary, addictive, and always ownerless.
The body and all touches are passing, obsessive, remote, alien, & non-self!
The mind and all thoughts are momentary, imaginary and without a core...
Friends, you should eliminate all desire and any lust for whatever there is
impermanent, suffering, and impersonal, whether these appearances are
past, present or future, internal or external, high or low, fine or gross,
far or near... That will indeed ease your well-fare for a long, long time...
Why so? Because - Craving in itself! - is the very cause of all Suffering...
This is the 2nd Noble Truth, unheard of before, the Buddha discovered it!
To consume porn is to indulge in suffering, IMO
Oh my God...People do that!? I've seen people giving music lessons through the internet, but can you imagine people using paypal for virtual sex? lol that is crazy.
People do MUCH crazier things than that. I would advise you to not try to find out what those things are, LOL.
Do you ever look at porn? I have on and off over the years. What does it do to you? I found it to be a potential whirlpool of sexual obession. Not a good thing to be associated with methinks.
I agree with this view, and also with the poster who mentioned Right Livelihood.
A key point to keep in mind is that it's not just about whether one is physically hurting another with their job. It's also about moral/spiritual/psychological damage, as well as whether one's own spiritual purity and karma suffer. For Buddhism is undergirded by a foundation of moral purity (sila). Sexual webcams exist for the purpose of helping people gratify their lustful cravings: a vicious cycle, in stark opposition to the Precepts, and indeed to the Buddha's main message of liberation from suffering.
Your friend is (apparently) not a Buddhist, so she probably doesn't subscribe to this code. But from a Buddhist point of view, I can't imagine a single wise teacher recommending a sex-cam as an acceptable means of livelihood. Buddha himself would surely advise against it, for it belongs to the endless pleasure/pain cycle of suffering (dukkha).
It therefore becomes an issue of compromise, both moral and karmic. Your friend makes more money, yes, and this is a plus. But she also helps sexually-addicted men feed their cravings, which perpetuates their suffering; and in the process, she also contaminates her own karma; and these are minuses.
"... Because - Craving in itself! - is the very cause of all Suffering..."
Sometimes I find that I have lost a lot of craving for many things I used to enjoy in life. I tell myself that I am beginning to lose attachment to those things which are impermanent and unimportant, but other times I feel a sense of loss as though I am not enjoying my time on this earth. How do you other practioners deal with this or is this a non-issue for you. To be honest, i sometimes feel that my loss of desires and cravings has led to my loss of desire for life itself. I am becoming numb and indifferent to many things in this world good and bad. To know happiness is to know sadness, sometimes I fell I know neither. Has anyone else had this experience and what can one do to inject some joie de vivre back into the spirit?
peace and thanks.
(and sorry if this should be a new thread).
"... Because - Craving in itself! - is the very cause of all Suffering..."
Sometimes I find that I have lost a lot of craving for many things I used to enjoy in life. I tell myself that I am beginning to lose attachment to those things which are impermanent and unimportant, but other times I feel a sense of loss as though I am not enjoying my time on this earth. How do you other practioners deal with this or is this a non-issue for you. To be honest, i sometimes feel that my loss of desires and cravings has led to my loss of desire for life itself. I am becoming numb and indifferent to many things in this world good and bad. To know happiness is to know sadness, sometimes I fell I know neither. Has anyone else had this experience and what can one do to inject some joie de vivre back into the spirit?
peace and thanks.
(and sorry if this should be a new thread).
Hi hello (sorry--I realize that's redundant),
My question to you would be: why do you feel you've lost your joy? What is it that has caused you to lose touch with your feelings? What caused this?
Equanimity is the state of freedom from both craving and aversion; it's the "middle way," where neither pleasure nor pain holds sway over you. Were it not for your claim to have lost touch with joy, I would think you might be progressing towards this state.
But from what I understand, those who achieve equanimity feel joy, not less keenly, but more so; and it's true joy, not merely pleasure. So if you're saying you feel no joy, my guess is that equanimity is not where you are (not yet, anyway).
(And yes, this should probably be its own thread, so I too apologize to the OP; but I didn't want to ignore hello's request.)
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
"... Because - Craving in itself! - is the very cause of all Suffering..."
Sometimes I find that I have lost a lot of craving for many things I used to enjoy in life. I tell myself that I am beginning to lose attachment to those things which are impermanent and unimportant, but other times I feel a sense of loss as though I am not enjoying my time on this earth. How do you other practioners deal with this or is this a non-issue for you. To be honest, i sometimes feel that my loss of desires and cravings has led to my loss of desire for life itself. I am becoming numb and indifferent to many things in this world good and bad. To know happiness is to know sadness, sometimes I fell I know neither. Has anyone else had this experience and what can one do to inject some joie de vivre back into the spirit?
peace and thanks.
(and sorry if this should be a new thread).
i think i can empathize. there are a lot of unskillful things that i used to do, but slowly am losing the desire to do. for me though, i don't seem to feel numb/like i lost my desire for life MYSELF... it seems to me that others make me feel this way. if i could stay home and study buddhism all day and never go to another bar, i think that would suit me just fine. but it doesn't seem that my friends/girlfriend accept this though. i actually just had a fight about this very scenario. nobody understands this shift in my personality and they keep trying to force me out of it. but then again, every now and then i wake up and feel incredibly lame all by myself for never wanting to do things that just seem like a waste of time to me now.
is this similar to what you are experiencing? if not, i would ask you, are you forcing yourself to not partake in certain activities or do you really just not want to do them anymore? are all of these things unskillful?
To be honest, i sometimes feel that my loss of desires and cravings has led to my loss of desire for life itself. I am becoming numb and indifferent to many things in this world good and bad. To know happiness is to know sadness, sometimes I fell I know neither. Has anyone else had this experience and what can one do to inject some joie de vivre back into the spirit?
hello,
Sometimes, when we work hard on uncovering our secret delusions and dissolving our self, we inadvertently become selfish, or self-centric, which can often lead to the results you are experiencing. To combat this, start doing charitable deeds, such as putting a few dollars in your pocket and go find someone who needs it. Or, any millions of the ways we have in every moment to be of service to the whole.
And, yes, its ok to know that you are doing good deeds to experience more harmony in your heart... because as you continue to give, you'll outgrow it as the joy really takes root. From those roots, you'll have an abundance that allows you to live without even thinking of self.
why do i feel i have lost some joy? .... because i don't seem to get excited about things as I did before. For me it seems that the removal of attachments is not the path to enlightenment or equanimity but the path to indifference. For example, I used to love to play tennis, and while I still enjoy the game, if i don't play, it's no big deal. Same for foods. Used to love certain foods but if I don't eat it, i'll eat something else. It's like if someone asks what would you like for dinner, i would just as soon say - whatever. It doesn't seem to matter whether the activities be skillful or not, i just feel detached from it. Do i need to play tennis? no. Do i need to eat cheesecake? no. So what is it I do need? anything? nothing to look forward to? am i losing something? is this part of my practice and journey? or is it male menopause? i don't really know. i am not forcing myself not to partake in any activity, it's just i don't really care if i do or not partake.
Sometimes, when we work hard on uncovering our secret delusions and dissolving our self, we inadvertently become selfish, or self-centric, which can often lead to the results you are experiencing. To combat this, start doing charitable deeds, such as putting a few dollars in your pocket and go find someone who needs it. Or, any millions of the ways we have in every moment to be of service to the whole.
And, yes, its ok to know that you are doing good deeds to experience more harmony in your heart... because as you continue to give, you'll outgrow it as the joy really takes root. From those roots, you'll have an abundance that allows you to live without even thinking of self.
With warmth,
Matt
hmmm...that is an interesting take on my situation. I would not have considered it selfish or self-centric (inadvertently or not) but rather the opposite as if i've lost my 'self'. You know how one would describe oneself as 'Joe likes long walks on the beach, watching the sunset, playing golf and going to the movies. Joe likes modern art, jazz music, and eating japanese food.' Well, for me, joe doesn't care for long walks on the beach, or any of those things anymore. yes, i'm still joe, but all those descriptions of my self have disappeared, but i don't feel anymore liberated yet alone closer to enlightenment.
I will try charitable deeds as you mentioned. Been meaning to do something meaningful for sometime as the other things i'm doing are becoming more meaningless.
I would not have considered it selfish or self-centric
What is bothering you is anomie. You need a purpose. The Buddha had one, enlightenment. You don't need to be seeking enlightenment just because you read in a book you should, though. I think you should just sit down and do some self exploration and figure out what you want from life.
For me the problem is not self-centeredness. It is lack of self-knowledge (you seem a bit confused). When you know yourself and discover what is it that you want things fall into places.
Been meaning to do something meaningful for sometime as the other things i'm doing are becoming more meaningless.
I appreciate the observations you're making on the lack of strong self identity, where the meaning has diminished from activities like playing tennis or eating a sensual meal. But, seeing as you are still Joe, I wonder if you've fallen into some nihilism, where nothing has meaning.
The reason I point out that perhaps its self-centric is because you seem to be very directly describing what happens when our observations and intentions have been pointed inward. I mean no slight or judgment, only the examination of what seeds produce what fruits, and how to shift the awareness away from tastelessness.
I think spending some time helping others will richly deepen the meaning of each moment, as it resurges your sense of connection with the world.
We are all animals. Sex is animalistic. Ive never understood people who talk about 'making love'. In fact the term makes me cringe. Sex for me has never been anything more than a biological urge to orgasm which i suppose is programmed into all species so that we procreate. Of course I enjoy sex and being close to my lover but Ive never read anything more into it especially not that its some kind of tantric spiritual experience. Therefore if porn helps people achieve orgasm then in and of itself its harmless. Its a means to an end. I really dont like the whole moral crusading debate about porn being this evil force in society ruing peoples lives. Its just used as a scapegoat basically for people who refuse to take responsibility just like drugs and any other addiction.
We are all animals. Sex is animalistic. Ive never understood people who talk about 'making love'. In fact the term makes me cringe. Sex for me has never been anything more than a biological urge to orgasm which i suppose is programmed into all species so that we procreate. Of course I enjoy sex and being close to my lover but Ive never read anything more into it especially not that its some kind of tantric spiritual experience. Therefore if porn helps people achieve orgasm then in and of itself its harmless. Its a means to an end. I really dont like the whole moral crusading debate about porn being this evil force in society ruing peoples lives. Its just used as a scapegoat basically for people who refuse to take responsibility just like drugs and any other addiction.
This is all well and good Zania and I am sure many others share your view. However, it must be remembered that there are just as many people out there who DON'T share this view and DO use porn to fulfil violent fantasies which they can then cross over to real life, plenty of marriages DO get ruined by unrealistic expectations as mentioned by Fran (I ought to know, my ex-husband became addicted to porn and it destroyed our marriage), as well as a whole plethora of other issues. I'm glad you've never experienced this yourself .
At the end of the day, all any of us can do is to live according to the 8fold path and observe the 5 precepts. As HH The Dalai Lama has said repeatedly: If you cannot help, at least do no harm.
This is all well and good Zania and I am sure many others share your view. However, it must be remembered that there are just as many people out there who DON'T share this view and DO use porn to fulfil violent fantasies which they can then cross over to real life, plenty of marriages DO get ruined by unrealistic expectations as mentioned by Fran (I ought to know, my ex-husband became addicted to porn and it destroyed our marriage), as well as a whole plethora of other issues. I'm glad you've never experienced this yourself .
At the end of the day, all any of us can do is to live according to the 8fold path and observe the 5 precepts. As HH The Dalai Lama has said repeatedly: If you cannot help, at least do no harm.
Dhammachick
Im sorry about your marriage but was it really porn that destroyed it or was porn just the catalyst? Perhaps there were already cracks. If it wasnt porn maybe it would have been something else.
Its like violent video games. Theres a section of the community who espouse the view that they cause violence in the community however the evidence suggests otherwise.
Im sorry about your marriage but was it really porn that destroyed it or was porn just the catalyst? Perhaps there were already cracks. If it wasnt porn maybe it would have been something else.
Its like violent video games. Theres a section of the community who espouse the view that they cause violence in the community however the evidence suggests otherwise.
Thanks for the sympathy. Yes it was porn. We had always been able to have a frank talk about anything in our relationship. Once the porn got addictive, sex dried up, he stopped communicating with me and the marriage deteriorated swiftly. He even admitted that he didn't view me the same way anymore. That his ideal woman was what was portrayed on the porn sites.
In the end he did me and our child a favour leaving us, but ultimately my point is that in a lot of circumstances, porn is the cause. I was surprised at how many other women and some men, I found who had experienced the same situation.
i think i can empathize. there are a lot of unskillful things that i used to do, but slowly am losing the desire to do. for me though, i don't seem to feel numb/like i lost my desire for life MYSELF... it seems to me that others make me feel this way. if i could stay home and study buddhism all day and never go to another bar, i think that would suit me just fine. but it doesn't seem that my friends/girlfriend accept this though. i actually just had a fight about this very scenario. nobody understands this shift in my personality and they keep trying to force me out of it. but then again, every now and then i wake up and feel incredibly lame all by myself for never wanting to do things that just seem like a waste of time to me now.
is this similar to what you are experiencing? if not, i would ask you, are you forcing yourself to not partake in certain activities or do you really just not want to do them anymore? are all of these things unskillful?
My girlfriend calls me boring often....
At first I really felt hurt by this...
Now i'm just boring and content with it...
she's still with me so....
Thanks for the sympathy. Yes it was porn. We had always been able to have a frank talk about anything in our relationship. Once the porn got addictive, sex dried up, he stopped communicating with me and the marriage deteriorated swiftly. He even admitted that he didn't view me the same way anymore. That his ideal woman was what was portrayed on the porn sites.
In the end he did me and our child a favour leaving us, but ultimately my point is that in a lot of circumstances, porn is the cause. I was surprised at how many other women and some men, I found who had experienced the same situation.
Dhammachick
I really feel for you but from what you are telling me it sounds like he had an underlying unresolved problem and the porn just triggered that. If it wasnt porn it most likely would have been something else. You could say its fortunate it wasnt gambling or drugs as he may have pissed all your money up the wall.
We are all animals. Sex is animalistic. Ive never understood people who talk about 'making love'. In fact the term makes me cringe. Sex for me has never been anything more than a biological urge to orgasm which i suppose is programmed into all species so that we procreate. Of course I enjoy sex and being close to my lover but Ive never read anything more into it especially not that its some kind of tantric spiritual experience. Therefore if porn helps people achieve orgasm then in and of itself its harmless. Its a means to an end. I really dont like the whole moral crusading debate about porn being this evil force in society ruing peoples lives. Its just used as a scapegoat basically for people who refuse to take responsibility just like drugs and any other addiction.
I find it amazing that the notion of sexual intimacy ("making love") makes you cringe. I feel sympathy, that sex is only an urge for you, but also can see how that certainly explains your lack of understanding about the qualities of sex that are undermined by porn.
The notions of tantra are quite amazing, and to have sexual experiences that transcend sexual urge is akin to having a gourmet meal vs fast food. To say "who cares, I get hungry, I eat some McDonalds" is certainly rational... if you don't observe the qualities of the food you're eating.
I wonder, have you had many lasting relationships? Without developing intimacy, I really wonder if you'd be interested in the same person for any length of time.
We are all animals. Sex is animalistic. Ive never understood people who talk about 'making love'. In fact the term makes me cringe. Sex for me has never been anything more than a biological urge to orgasm which i suppose is programmed into all species so that we procreate. .
Try 20 years of marriage sharing child raising, old age, disease, death, shared loss, and much pain. Then you will know the difference between getting-off and sharing genuine loving intimacy. I've heard this attitude around the nature of human intimacy before. It is poverty stricken. Go hump a goat, or better still masturbate to a digital decoy along with a hundred other mallards.
Dear aMatt and NamelessRiver. Thank you for your observations. I was unfamiliar with the meanings of nihilism and anomie so I looked it up. Some of the meanings have very negative connatations and I don't believe I fall into those categories. I am neither destructive nor anti-social or shun society. But the last meaning (at least on my dictionary) of nihilism did catch my attention: "annihilation of the self, or the individual consciousness, esp. as an aspect of mystical experience. "
While i don't feel i've had a mystical experience, nor do i think i'm losing any individual consciousness, i do feel that the loss of attachments and cravings is destroying part of my 'self'. I do have some purpose in life and reaching enlightenment is one of them even though I know it is next to impossible but it is a goal nonetheless. One of the paths to reach enlightenment is to let go of attachments. Cravings lead to suffering. Yes, if you crave for love that is not returned, or crave for fame and fortune that may never come, or worse if crave for drugs or alcholol which can harm your body and mind. But i am finding that cravings come in many shapes and forms and varying degrees. And craving simple things can often enhance the experience and bring more joy and pleasure to life. Such as looking forward to a sumptuous meal or spending a special evening with your loved ones. If you lose these cravings, are you really lessening the suffering? Am I doing something wrong or is this a natural progression of things as one loses cravings and attachments?
Right now, we go through life with an identity made up of who we think we are, built upon our experiences, education, interactions with people and our surroundings. We are constantly bombarded by media, culture, traditions to want this, feel that, take this personality test, what's your favourite colour, poll question: what animal would you be?, what does being a coffee drinker tell you about your sex life, on and on. We take a whole lifetime to build up our 'selves' and images of 'self', but in the end, we are taught that we must let of all this go in the afterlife. Lose the 'self', lose attachments. Find enlightenment where the true self is revealed. What is the true self? I thought it was me. So why do I feel I am losing the real 'me'. It is hard. I may be confused, be definitely conflicted.
I can understand that you do not feel like you are destructive or anti-social, and those are really not the kind of nihilism I was talking about, so I'll try clarify what I mean. From there perhaps what I am pointing at will become more obvious to you.
When we look at your observation/question:
But i am finding that cravings come in many shapes and forms and varying degrees. And craving simple things can often enhance the experience and bring more joy and pleasure to life. Such as looking forward to a sumptuous meal or spending a special evening with your loved ones. If you lose these cravings, are you really lessening the suffering? Am I doing something wrong or is this a natural progression of things as one loses cravings and attachments?
The area of study here would not be to try to lessen your enjoyment of a "special evening with your loved ones", but to notice how your clinging to "special" and "loved ones" makes it so that your joy peaks at this kind of experience. When you say you crave this kind of moment, then in the present moment there is dissatisfaction and afterwards there is dissatisfaction.
If you let loose of the clinging to "special" and "loved one", you can experience every moment as special and every moment with loved ones, whether they be strangers or your children, and as you move from moment to moment let go of the previous (and future) experiences to be completely satisfied in the present.
What you seem to be describing is the opposite of this, where the events have no meaning, such as
joe doesn't care for long walks on the beach, or any of those things anymore
which is the form of nihilism I am talking about. If it were true, open connection to the universe it would look like this:
joe loves going on long walks on the beach and not going on long walks on the beach
So, as you notice that the experiences are becoming tasteless, meaningless, purposeless, then you're not really letting go of craving, you're craving letting go... which blocks your enjoyment of the experiences. To re-establish this connection, and to really let go of self, practice putting others before yourself, such as charity work, like I had mentioned. Because the act of charity is selfless, it automatically moves our minds into a place where the self is quiet and experiences become radiant.
I'm going to have to contemplate that and try to bend my mind around it. What you're suggesting is that i find equal pleasure in spending quality moments with stranger's kids as i would my own and i find that hard to imagine. (letting go of the clinging to 'special' and 'loved ones' etc.) If i love both walking on the beach and not walking on the beach, then what is the point of even differentiating. Why do we choose descriptions like 'sumptuous' meals if i am to both enjoy delicious meals and plain sustenance. it is a difficult concept to grasp... but i will work on it.
and take up your other suggestion of charitable work.
thanks, and peace.
why do i feel i have lost some joy? .... because i don't seem to get excited about things as I did before. For me it seems that the removal of attachments is not the path to enlightenment or equanimity but the path to indifference. For example, I used to love to play tennis, and while I still enjoy the game, if i don't play, it's no big deal. Same for foods. Used to love certain foods but if I don't eat it, i'll eat something else. It's like if someone asks what would you like for dinner, i would just as soon say - whatever. It doesn't seem to matter whether the activities be skillful or not, i just feel detached from it. Do i need to play tennis? no. Do i need to eat cheesecake? no. So what is it I do need? anything? nothing to look forward to? am i losing something? is this part of my practice and journey? or is it male menopause? i don't really know. i am not forcing myself not to partake in any activity, it's just i don't really care if i do or not partake.
I apologize, I should have been more clear with my words.
I wasn't asking what evidence you see in your life to indicate a loss of joy; I was asking why it happened. What caused it?
Every result has a cause; every situation came about through prior steps. Something must have happened (maybe you did something, or stopped doing something) to lead you to your current reality.
We all create our own reality; somehow you've created yours. If you can figure out how you did it, you can gain some useful knowledge about yourself and your life.
I find it amazing that the notion of sexual intimacy ("making love") makes you cringe. I feel sympathy, that sex is only an urge for you, but also can see how that certainly explains your lack of understanding about the qualities of sex that are undermined by porn.
The notions of tantra are quite amazing, and to have sexual experiences that transcend sexual urge is akin to having a gourmet meal vs fast food. To say "who cares, I get hungry, I eat some McDonalds" is certainly rational... if you don't observe the qualities of the food you're eating.
I wonder, have you had many lasting relationships? Without developing intimacy, I really wonder if you'd be interested in the same person for any length of time.
With warmth,
Matt
Its not the notion of sexual intimacy that makes me cringe. Its that term "making love". It just sounds so soppy. I accept and enjoy my sex life very much with my partner of ten years(next february) and dont wish for it to be anything more so I feel that your sympathy is somewhat patronising. We enjoy intimacy in many ways and just because sex for me is very animalistic does not mean that its not intimate.
Im also not ignorant of how qualities of sex can be undermined by porn but on the other hand sex can also be enhanced by it. Drugs can enhance ones life or they can ruin it. Gambling can be a fun leisurely pastime or it can ruin your life. Theres always two sides to every coin.
As Ive already stated umpteen times I dont believe that porn in and of itself is the problem. Of course it isnt. Porn is just the byproduct. If im addicted to drugs is the drug the problem? If Im addicted to gambling is the casino the problem? No. To blame an inanimate thing would be foolish. Take them away and Im still an addict. Thats not to say that the substance or whatever should not be removed if there is a problem its just that it must be recognised for what it is and not blamed. The problem is internal.
Its not the notion of sexual intimacy that makes me cringe. Its that term "making love". It just sounds so soppy. I accept and enjoy my sex life very much with my partner of ten years(next february) and dont wish for it to be anything more so I feel that your sympathy is somewhat patronising. We enjoy intimacy in many ways and just because sex for me is very animalistic does not mean that its not intimate.
If you don't like the sound of making love....
call it 'happy time' ....get-together-fun-time.....'get away from it all for 2 minutes time'.......'exchanging fluids fun fest 2010'....
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Its not the notion of sexual intimacy that makes me cringe. Its that term "making love". It just sounds so soppy. I accept and enjoy my sex life very much with my partner of ten years(next february) and dont wish for it to be anything more so I feel that your sympathy is somewhat patronising. We enjoy intimacy in many ways and just because sex for me is very animalistic does not mean that its not intimate.
Im also not ignorant of how qualities of sex can be undermined by porn but on the other hand sex can also be enhanced by it. Drugs can enhance ones life or they can ruin it. Gambling can be a fun leisurely pastime or it can ruin your life. Theres always two sides to every coin.
As Ive already stated umpteen times I dont believe that porn in and of itself is the problem. Of course it isnt. Porn is just the byproduct. If im addicted to drugs is the drug the problem? If Im addicted to gambling is the casino the problem? No. To blame an inanimate thing would be foolish. Take them away and Im still an addict. Thats not to say that the substance or whatever should not be removed if there is a problem its just that it must be recognised for what it is and not blamed. The problem is internal.
to offer another opinion...i almost never have animalistic sex and only ever "make love", so to speak. i've tried, but i'm just too emotional. animalistic sex actually ends up making me feel very devoid, depressed, alone... i've only ever been able to achieve this without the negative when i've been INCREDIBLY drunk. but uh, that's not really something i aim for... heh. i need connection with sex, without it, i just don't see the point. i don't like feeling like i am only a vagina, easily replaced by another. i like to feel as if the sex is as much about me and our relationship as it is an orgasm.
i disagree on your second paragraph here. you are suggesting that anyone with an addiction has an underlying problem. many addictions are hereditary. why would alcohol for one person cause no problems, but become a completely destructive force for another? drinking alcohol is considered normal in our society. you can't say that the person who becomes an alcoholic did so on purpose. alcohol itself is not an addictive substance, but the brain can make it so. my father, now a recovering alcoholic, once had a seizure when he was forced to go without alcohol. it's very real.
porn may be slightly different, but as i suggested before... i could have possibly formed an addiction to porn easily. i noticed the tendencies and feelings in myself. i now avoid it because i can clearly see the affect it has upon my relationship. i never watched porn because i was unhappy, but merely because i was bored. this is not some form of denial. my relationship did not cause me to watch porn, but porn did cause my relationship to suffer.
i don't think everyone who watches porn will become an addict or a defunct individual, but i do think that porn is bad, through and through. when people drink, they are aware that alcohol destroys their liver and braincells. i think porn is the same. people should be aware that it changes their subconscious.
"After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it."
to offer another opinion...i almost never have animalistic sex and only ever "make love", so to speak. i've tried, but i'm just too emotional. animalistic sex actually ends up making me feel very devoid, depressed, alone... i've only ever been able to achieve this without the negative when i've been INCREDIBLY drunk. but uh, that's not really something i aim for... heh. i need connection with sex, without it, i just don't see the point. i don't like feeling like i am only a vagina, easily replaced by another. i like to feel as if the sex is as much about me and our relationship as it is an orgasm.
i disagree on your second paragraph here. you are suggesting that anyone with an addiction has an underlying problem. many addictions are hereditary. why would alcohol for one person cause no problems, but become a completely destructive force for another? drinking alcohol is considered normal in our society. you can't say that the person who becomes an alcoholic did so on purpose. alcohol itself is not an addictive substance, but the brain can make it so. my father, now a recovering alcoholic, once had a seizure when he was forced to go without alcohol. it's very real.
porn may be slightly different, but as i suggested before... i could have possibly formed an addiction to porn easily. i noticed the tendencies and feelings in myself. i now avoid it because i can clearly see the affect it has upon my relationship. i never watched porn because i was unhappy, but merely because i was bored. this is not some form of denial. my relationship did not cause me to watch porn, but porn did cause my relationship to suffer.
i don't think everyone who watches porn will become an addict or a defunct individual, but i do think that porn is bad, through and through. when people drink, they are aware that alcohol destroys their liver and braincells. i think porn is the same. people should be aware that it changes their subconscious.
"After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it."
So on the one hand some of you are saying that its the attachment that causes the suffering but then on the other you are saying its the object of the attachment(ie-porn is bad). Which is it? Is it whatever personally suits you best at the time?
Porn may be 'bad through and through' for you but for some its positive. You may not like animalistic sex but for some its a beautiful thing. Life isnt black and white there are many shades of grey in between. Each to their own.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
So on the one hand some of you are saying that its the attachment that causes the suffering but then on the other you are saying its the object of the attachment(ie-porn is bad). Which is it? Is it whatever personally suits you best at the time?
Porn may be 'bad through and through' for you but for some its positive. You may not like animalistic sex but for some its a beautiful thing. Life isnt black and white there are many shades of grey in between. Each to their own.
i don't think this is inconsistent for me. i still believe in psychology.
perhaps i shouldn't have used the term "bad" but "unskillful". that is a much better description, really. bad implies it is inherently evil, "unskillful" implies it is based in delusion, creating suffering. this description better aligns with my belief regarding porn, that it reinforces sexual stimulation via unrealistic means and decreases stimulation received from reality. sorry for the confusion, to me, it seemed the same.
i feel the same way about alcohol, you know. one could argue that "it makes people more social" and "a lot of people have fun when drunk" and "a little bit never hurt anyone"... but i still feel that it is unskillful no matter what.
it may be that attachment is the root of suffering, but that doesn't mean you have to throw yourself in front of the bus.
i wasn't saying that animalistic sex was bad. i think if you reread my statements, you will realize i don't say anything but a description of how *i* feel. i was simply describing my feelings toward sex. you said you never understood it. i find differences interesting, that's all.
i don't think this is inconsistent for me. i still believe in psychology.
perhaps i shouldn't have used the term "bad" but "unskillful". that is a much better description, really. bad implies it is inherently evil, "unskillful" implies it is based in delusion, creating suffering. this description better aligns with my belief regarding porn, that it reinforces sexual stimulation via unrealistic means and decreases stimulation received from reality. sorry for the confusion, to me, it seemed the same.
i feel the same way about alcohol, you know. one could argue that "it makes people more social" and "a lot of people have fun when drunk" and "a little bit never hurt anyone"... but i still feel that it is unskillful no matter what.
it may be that attachment is the root of suffering, but that doesn't mean you have to throw yourself in front of the bus.
i wasn't saying that animalistic sex was bad. i think if you reread my statements, you will realize i don't say anything but a description of how *i* feel. i was simply describing my feelings toward sex. you said you never understood it. i find differences interesting, that's all.
I think even calling it unskillful is a judgement based on ones own beliefs and preconceptions. Its kind of patronising because it implies that anyone who doesn't conform is not as skilful as someone who does which I don't think is true. Maybe its better to see it as "For me it doesnt work but for others it does".
Anyway at the end of the day its all about attachment to the experience or thing and not about the thing itself. Money can also bring suffering if one is too attached to it and some would say that money is the root of all evil however I doubt many people would give it up. It can be used for good or it can be used for evil. Instead we can release our attachment and still have money and in the same way if a person enjoys porn and finds it stimulating they can still enjoy it but perhaps release their attachment to it. Whats good for some is not necessarily good for all.
I think even calling it unskillful is a judgement based on ones own beliefs and preconceptions. Its kind of patronising because it implies that anyone who doesn't conform is not as skilful as someone who does which I don't think is true. Maybe its better to see it as "For me it doesnt work but for others it does".
I think it is safe to say that there are harmful actions that people ignorantly declare are not-harmful. Your notion of moral-relativism reminds me of the sophists.
I wonder if you would consider heroine a social good, because maybe someone can come along and use it for painkilling, like it was first used. Perhaps, certainly, one could interact with it skillfully. In my opinion, that would be abstaining from using it, as the substance is inherently fraught with pitfalls. It would be silly to regard it only harmful in the hand of the beholder. That only an addict would become addicted... have you done any study on addiction? There are actually substances that the body becomes addicted to, its not an excuse made up by weak minded people. Its biological.
With porn, there is more to it than you sitting there getting revved up to hump your partner. There are many more component factors, that even if you insist that your life it better off, it almost certainly is not, because you're digesting the other factors to which you appear wholly ignorant.
I'm sorry you considered my words patronizing, and I admit that when I first read your words I thought I was speaking to a child, so I was treating you like a child.
My first teacher, a senior monk from one of the Bangladeshi Nikaya schools, had a somewhat iconoclastic attitude towards sexuality that was markedly different from anything I've heard from other Buddhists since then. He said that sexuality can be one of the most powerful venues in which to study ourselves in the context of dhamma. We should not forgo the opportunity to really take a good look at ourselves when we are aroused, when we are pursuing sexual gratification, when we are engaging in sexual activity (which includes masturbation), and after we have engaged in sexual activity. Besides the obvious (nothing nonconsensual, etc.), some reflections to consider:
1.) What am I really desiring here? Am I really lonely and seeking connection with another human being? (This works both on a psychological level, as sex can be an affirmation of our own loveability, and on a physiological level as sexual orgasm, after all, releases oxytocin -- a hormone that makes you feel connected.) Am I seeking to feel known and appreciated? Am I seeking to alleviate or wash away my insecurities? Or am I merely seeking to release my sexual energy?
2.) Is the kind of sexual activity I engage in fulfilling my real needs? Am I getting what I really want from it? If not, why? Was I seeking short-term gratification when what I really need is long-term fulfillment? Or is short-term gratification all I need without the complication of long-term involvement with a partner?
3.) Am I simply using my sexual partners to galvanize my self-esteem? Do I believe that having a sexual partner (or many sexual partners) -- that being sexually desirable -- makes me a more valuable person in areas outside of just sexuality? Why and how so?
4.) Have I estranged my eroticism from the entirety of my life? Do I regard it as somehow "separate" from my everyday life? Why might this be the case? What would integrating my sexuality into the entirety of my living mean for me? Does that scare me? If so, what am I really frightened of?
5.) Do I resent or begrudge other people's enjoyment of their sexuality? If so, why?
6.) Am I using sexuality as a distraction from something? What could that something be, and how might I deal with it in a more direct way?
7.) If death is certain, but time of death is uncertain, what is really important? You can ask this on the micro-level ("...what is really important in my sexual relationships?") or on the macro-level ("... what is really important in life?")
Comments
Im straight....but I don't have privacy either.
Government and such know everything of me. Internet leaves permanent traces, taxes, the grid, administration, banks, telephone company's, social networking...
please explain what arguments u mean...
excellent..
i'm working hard on letting go terms like good and evil, and I wasn't planning on using them towards her. It's still a bit difficult for me to express myself without using those words, altough I don't mean them lol hahaha maybe a bit confusing...
I'm gonna let her do the talking and just ask questions mostly about what she feels, if she thinks it adds something, if she is happy (most important i think) with what she does in life.
she will have to explain to her first real boss why she didn't have a sidejob when she was a student. At least I would never put a job like this on my resume.
It can be harmfull to her career later, you're right about that....
haven't thought about that part yet....thanks.
didn't Jezus date a prostitute
I can see no reason, karmically, morally, dharmically or otherwise why this could be considered wrong, in any sense.
To say otherwise I suspect is just spouting ye olde man-world insecurity driven pointless negativity.
There may be pragmatic reasons she might want to not do it, eg concerns about videos of her being found by her great grandkids etc. But that's not about Dharma or morality.
Wow
you cannot make their decisions for them.
You cannot be the one to wilfully change their kamma.
Your kamma is your responsibility.
Theirs - is theirs.
If you think you are responsible for, or should have a concern into why or what happens to their kamma, then fine - but in that case, broaden that to include everyone you interact and engage with....
Surely confining yourself to your immediate circle is limiting.
if you are going to show concern for the kamma of friends and family, then you need to broaden your scope. You can't be this selective....if you feel you should influence and affect your friends and family, then does it not follow that you need to be concerned with the world at large?
You can't have one without the other.....
I think a 'confined concern' is better than an 'apathetic regard' to other people's suffering. If you're just stating that we are not responsible for other people's karma, that's fine of course. Its not that we should own what does not belong to us... but if we stand unmoved by a loved one's suffering, then I think we've moved into nihilism, not liberation.
With warmth,
Matt
edit: And, zen and jaakko, thank you for the kind words.
Good point.
I have to say Ive never found porn to be addictive or obsessive etc. Ive certainly only ever spent very little money on it. I understand though that for some people they get totally sucked in and cant escape.
I dont think that porn itself is evil or should be banned. I think the problem is within the person. If they arent addicted to porn it would be something else such as gambling anyway. You can take away the porn or the gambling but you cant take away the addiction.
I think it can be a comfort for lonely single people if used sparsely. It can be good for couples trying to spice things too.
I just find its not much of a turn on. Its sort of like a pile of meat on a plate that you can eat whenever you want, not very appealing. Its most certainly not erotic in anyway. Most of the time its downright ugly and the actors are all so plastic and unnatural looking. I look at those women with bloated breasts that dont move , big bottled blonde hair dos ,lashings of badly applied makeup ,orange fake tans and prepubescent looking shaved genitals and think to myself how is this attractive? Why do they think that this is what men want?? Maybe some men do like it but for the life of me I cant see why!
If the porn industry made it difficult to access they would make even more money because we all want what we cant have. I find that because its so available I just don't want it.
From the perspective of the Buddhist path, I don't know of any teacher who say's participating in or consuming porn is skillful.
May not be skilful but may temporarily satisfy ones libido or spice up ones marriage which cant be a bad thing. I don't believe in living a life of asceticism. I prefer balance.
It can be a "bad thing" when the partner who is using porn wants what he sees (and it usually is the male). This can result in dissatisfaction with his partner - she's too hairy, not toned, breasts are small and squishy etc. It can also mean wanting different sex acts and positions that his partner finds humiliating or uncomfortable or even painful. It can lead to seeing his partner and other women as objects to be used. It can lead to escalation of desire - seeking more extreme porn, using it more frequently and a consequent introduction of secrecy and mistrust within the marriage.
Some marriages may benefit from some types of porn, especially if watched together. However, there are dangers as outlined above.
Not watching porn does not make one an ascetic either! There are plenty of people who are capable of satisfying, lively, rich sexual relationships who don't use porn.
metta
Its possible to put a negative spin on anything. You could say that wearing sexy underwear is "bad" because it leads to sex without the underwear feeling not as exciting or the wife feeling like shes not attractive to the husband without the underwear. This could be said for any fetish item or even any number of non sexual activities.
Some people can take drugs occasionally and have a good time where as others get completely addicted after one try. I think it comes down to the individual case.
We are creatures of habit and so we must be ever vigilant of the habits we are forming.
In a relationship both people need very open communication all the time. If they watch porn and one person is feeling unhappy about the effects then it needs to be worked out between them. If a single person is feeling addicted to porn and feels out of control then they need to seek help.
Its childish and unrealistic to say porn is "bad" or "evil". Porn is always going to be available as is every other activity, substance or trigger. It comes down to the individual taking responsibility for their own actions.
peace
That's the thing, not from a moralistic view, but strictly a practice view. Temporary satisfaction of _____ yet again, is issue we are examining. It isn't bad to continue that strategy, just not practice.
Oh my God...People do that!? I've seen people giving music lessons through the internet, but can you imagine people using paypal for virtual sex? lol that is crazy.
Maybe she should try being a fortune cookie writer or a pet detective. Or she could play online games to exhaustion and sell game money for real money. I've heard you can actually make good cash with this last one.
It seems odd to me that you consider the possibilities only a 'spin'. Porn has the direct and probable outcome of having someone other than your partner become your object of sexual fantasy. Certainly for the time you engage in the viewing, and possibly longer. It doesn't make it a bad action, but it does undermine intimacy, which is a better fuel for sexual union than lust.
I think it was very well pointed when Fran suggested that its possible some relationships could benefit from it by watching it together.
Don't be fooled into thinking that watching porn is not a sexual participation with others.... it is voyeurism, which is participation.
With warmth,
Matt
what i have found:
i like watching porn. in the past, i have probably flirted with an addiction.
it is: easy... always available... distracting... interesting... never ending...
and ultimately: makes me feel disgusting... numbing... decreases my sex drive and interest in my partner... creates this weird need within me which i do not understand at all...
i don't know what it is but, the more i watch porn... the more frequently i want to. it doesn't ever satisfy, it only creates more need. masturbation is not like this (although, i guess some can be addicted to masturbation too). in the past, i found that i could go months without watching it...but the minute i open that door, that desire comes right back. even watching it with a partner is weird. you may argue that it can be helpful for relationships, i think it just makes you feel okay about being turned on by someone else. i'm not suggesting it's cheating or anything, just that if you examine it more closely, you might find that what you find stimulting is not likely to actually create a beneficial effect on your relationship at all.
end result? i try not to watch porn anymore. i've noticed nothing helpful ever came from it. i don't think it's as harmless as people like to pretend.
and you are very right in that it is not as harmless as people pretend. how i deal with it is that i look at it as two (or more) people fornicating... like animals on a discovery channel special and though sometimes it is a freak show, the novelty always eventually wear off.
To consume porn is to indulge in suffering, IMO
People do MUCH crazier things than that. I would advise you to not try to find out what those things are, LOL.
A key point to keep in mind is that it's not just about whether one is physically hurting another with their job. It's also about moral/spiritual/psychological damage, as well as whether one's own spiritual purity and karma suffer. For Buddhism is undergirded by a foundation of moral purity (sila). Sexual webcams exist for the purpose of helping people gratify their lustful cravings: a vicious cycle, in stark opposition to the Precepts, and indeed to the Buddha's main message of liberation from suffering.
Your friend is (apparently) not a Buddhist, so she probably doesn't subscribe to this code. But from a Buddhist point of view, I can't imagine a single wise teacher recommending a sex-cam as an acceptable means of livelihood. Buddha himself would surely advise against it, for it belongs to the endless pleasure/pain cycle of suffering (dukkha).
It therefore becomes an issue of compromise, both moral and karmic. Your friend makes more money, yes, and this is a plus. But she also helps sexually-addicted men feed their cravings, which perpetuates their suffering; and in the process, she also contaminates her own karma; and these are minuses.
Sometimes I find that I have lost a lot of craving for many things I used to enjoy in life. I tell myself that I am beginning to lose attachment to those things which are impermanent and unimportant, but other times I feel a sense of loss as though I am not enjoying my time on this earth. How do you other practioners deal with this or is this a non-issue for you. To be honest, i sometimes feel that my loss of desires and cravings has led to my loss of desire for life itself. I am becoming numb and indifferent to many things in this world good and bad. To know happiness is to know sadness, sometimes I fell I know neither. Has anyone else had this experience and what can one do to inject some joie de vivre back into the spirit?
peace and thanks.
(and sorry if this should be a new thread).
My question to you would be: why do you feel you've lost your joy? What is it that has caused you to lose touch with your feelings? What caused this?
Equanimity is the state of freedom from both craving and aversion; it's the "middle way," where neither pleasure nor pain holds sway over you. Were it not for your claim to have lost touch with joy, I would think you might be progressing towards this state.
But from what I understand, those who achieve equanimity feel joy, not less keenly, but more so; and it's true joy, not merely pleasure. So if you're saying you feel no joy, my guess is that equanimity is not where you are (not yet, anyway).
(And yes, this should probably be its own thread, so I too apologize to the OP; but I didn't want to ignore hello's request.)
i think i can empathize. there are a lot of unskillful things that i used to do, but slowly am losing the desire to do. for me though, i don't seem to feel numb/like i lost my desire for life MYSELF... it seems to me that others make me feel this way. if i could stay home and study buddhism all day and never go to another bar, i think that would suit me just fine. but it doesn't seem that my friends/girlfriend accept this though. i actually just had a fight about this very scenario. nobody understands this shift in my personality and they keep trying to force me out of it. but then again, every now and then i wake up and feel incredibly lame all by myself for never wanting to do things that just seem like a waste of time to me now.
is this similar to what you are experiencing? if not, i would ask you, are you forcing yourself to not partake in certain activities or do you really just not want to do them anymore? are all of these things unskillful?
hello,
Sometimes, when we work hard on uncovering our secret delusions and dissolving our self, we inadvertently become selfish, or self-centric, which can often lead to the results you are experiencing. To combat this, start doing charitable deeds, such as putting a few dollars in your pocket and go find someone who needs it. Or, any millions of the ways we have in every moment to be of service to the whole.
And, yes, its ok to know that you are doing good deeds to experience more harmony in your heart... because as you continue to give, you'll outgrow it as the joy really takes root. From those roots, you'll have an abundance that allows you to live without even thinking of self.
With warmth,
Matt
hmmm...that is an interesting take on my situation. I would not have considered it selfish or self-centric (inadvertently or not) but rather the opposite as if i've lost my 'self'. You know how one would describe oneself as 'Joe likes long walks on the beach, watching the sunset, playing golf and going to the movies. Joe likes modern art, jazz music, and eating japanese food.' Well, for me, joe doesn't care for long walks on the beach, or any of those things anymore. yes, i'm still joe, but all those descriptions of my self have disappeared, but i don't feel anymore liberated yet alone closer to enlightenment.
I will try charitable deeds as you mentioned. Been meaning to do something meaningful for sometime as the other things i'm doing are becoming more meaningless.
thanks,
For me the problem is not self-centeredness. It is lack of self-knowledge (you seem a bit confused). When you know yourself and discover what is it that you want things fall into places.
I appreciate the observations you're making on the lack of strong self identity, where the meaning has diminished from activities like playing tennis or eating a sensual meal. But, seeing as you are still Joe, I wonder if you've fallen into some nihilism, where nothing has meaning.
The reason I point out that perhaps its self-centric is because you seem to be very directly describing what happens when our observations and intentions have been pointed inward. I mean no slight or judgment, only the examination of what seeds produce what fruits, and how to shift the awareness away from tastelessness.
I think spending some time helping others will richly deepen the meaning of each moment, as it resurges your sense of connection with the world.
With warmth,
Matt
This is all well and good Zania and I am sure many others share your view. However, it must be remembered that there are just as many people out there who DON'T share this view and DO use porn to fulfil violent fantasies which they can then cross over to real life, plenty of marriages DO get ruined by unrealistic expectations as mentioned by Fran (I ought to know, my ex-husband became addicted to porn and it destroyed our marriage), as well as a whole plethora of other issues. I'm glad you've never experienced this yourself .
At the end of the day, all any of us can do is to live according to the 8fold path and observe the 5 precepts. As HH The Dalai Lama has said repeatedly: If you cannot help, at least do no harm.
Dhammachick
Im sorry about your marriage but was it really porn that destroyed it or was porn just the catalyst? Perhaps there were already cracks. If it wasnt porn maybe it would have been something else.
Its like violent video games. Theres a section of the community who espouse the view that they cause violence in the community however the evidence suggests otherwise.
Thanks for the sympathy. Yes it was porn. We had always been able to have a frank talk about anything in our relationship. Once the porn got addictive, sex dried up, he stopped communicating with me and the marriage deteriorated swiftly. He even admitted that he didn't view me the same way anymore. That his ideal woman was what was portrayed on the porn sites.
In the end he did me and our child a favour leaving us, but ultimately my point is that in a lot of circumstances, porn is the cause. I was surprised at how many other women and some men, I found who had experienced the same situation.
Dhammachick
My girlfriend calls me boring often....
At first I really felt hurt by this...
Now i'm just boring and content with it...
she's still with me so....
I really feel for you but from what you are telling me it sounds like he had an underlying unresolved problem and the porn just triggered that. If it wasnt porn it most likely would have been something else. You could say its fortunate it wasnt gambling or drugs as he may have pissed all your money up the wall.
I find it amazing that the notion of sexual intimacy ("making love") makes you cringe. I feel sympathy, that sex is only an urge for you, but also can see how that certainly explains your lack of understanding about the qualities of sex that are undermined by porn.
The notions of tantra are quite amazing, and to have sexual experiences that transcend sexual urge is akin to having a gourmet meal vs fast food. To say "who cares, I get hungry, I eat some McDonalds" is certainly rational... if you don't observe the qualities of the food you're eating.
I wonder, have you had many lasting relationships? Without developing intimacy, I really wonder if you'd be interested in the same person for any length of time.
With warmth,
Matt
,,,the indignant tone half hearted;)
While i don't feel i've had a mystical experience, nor do i think i'm losing any individual consciousness, i do feel that the loss of attachments and cravings is destroying part of my 'self'. I do have some purpose in life and reaching enlightenment is one of them even though I know it is next to impossible but it is a goal nonetheless. One of the paths to reach enlightenment is to let go of attachments. Cravings lead to suffering. Yes, if you crave for love that is not returned, or crave for fame and fortune that may never come, or worse if crave for drugs or alcholol which can harm your body and mind. But i am finding that cravings come in many shapes and forms and varying degrees. And craving simple things can often enhance the experience and bring more joy and pleasure to life. Such as looking forward to a sumptuous meal or spending a special evening with your loved ones. If you lose these cravings, are you really lessening the suffering? Am I doing something wrong or is this a natural progression of things as one loses cravings and attachments?
Right now, we go through life with an identity made up of who we think we are, built upon our experiences, education, interactions with people and our surroundings. We are constantly bombarded by media, culture, traditions to want this, feel that, take this personality test, what's your favourite colour, poll question: what animal would you be?, what does being a coffee drinker tell you about your sex life, on and on. We take a whole lifetime to build up our 'selves' and images of 'self', but in the end, we are taught that we must let of all this go in the afterlife. Lose the 'self', lose attachments. Find enlightenment where the true self is revealed. What is the true self? I thought it was me. So why do I feel I am losing the real 'me'. It is hard. I may be confused, be definitely conflicted.
peace.
I can understand that you do not feel like you are destructive or anti-social, and those are really not the kind of nihilism I was talking about, so I'll try clarify what I mean. From there perhaps what I am pointing at will become more obvious to you.
When we look at your observation/question:
The area of study here would not be to try to lessen your enjoyment of a "special evening with your loved ones", but to notice how your clinging to "special" and "loved ones" makes it so that your joy peaks at this kind of experience. When you say you crave this kind of moment, then in the present moment there is dissatisfaction and afterwards there is dissatisfaction.
If you let loose of the clinging to "special" and "loved one", you can experience every moment as special and every moment with loved ones, whether they be strangers or your children, and as you move from moment to moment let go of the previous (and future) experiences to be completely satisfied in the present.
What you seem to be describing is the opposite of this, where the events have no meaning, such as which is the form of nihilism I am talking about. If it were true, open connection to the universe it would look like this:
So, as you notice that the experiences are becoming tasteless, meaningless, purposeless, then you're not really letting go of craving, you're craving letting go... which blocks your enjoyment of the experiences. To re-establish this connection, and to really let go of self, practice putting others before yourself, such as charity work, like I had mentioned. Because the act of charity is selfless, it automatically moves our minds into a place where the self is quiet and experiences become radiant.
Does that clarify things?
With warmth,
Matt
I'm going to have to contemplate that and try to bend my mind around it. What you're suggesting is that i find equal pleasure in spending quality moments with stranger's kids as i would my own and i find that hard to imagine. (letting go of the clinging to 'special' and 'loved ones' etc.) If i love both walking on the beach and not walking on the beach, then what is the point of even differentiating. Why do we choose descriptions like 'sumptuous' meals if i am to both enjoy delicious meals and plain sustenance. it is a difficult concept to grasp... but i will work on it.
and take up your other suggestion of charitable work.
thanks, and peace.
I wasn't asking what evidence you see in your life to indicate a loss of joy; I was asking why it happened. What caused it?
Every result has a cause; every situation came about through prior steps. Something must have happened (maybe you did something, or stopped doing something) to lead you to your current reality.
We all create our own reality; somehow you've created yours. If you can figure out how you did it, you can gain some useful knowledge about yourself and your life.
Its not the notion of sexual intimacy that makes me cringe. Its that term "making love". It just sounds so soppy. I accept and enjoy my sex life very much with my partner of ten years(next february) and dont wish for it to be anything more so I feel that your sympathy is somewhat patronising. We enjoy intimacy in many ways and just because sex for me is very animalistic does not mean that its not intimate.
Im also not ignorant of how qualities of sex can be undermined by porn but on the other hand sex can also be enhanced by it. Drugs can enhance ones life or they can ruin it. Gambling can be a fun leisurely pastime or it can ruin your life. Theres always two sides to every coin.
As Ive already stated umpteen times I dont believe that porn in and of itself is the problem. Of course it isnt. Porn is just the byproduct. If im addicted to drugs is the drug the problem? If Im addicted to gambling is the casino the problem? No. To blame an inanimate thing would be foolish. Take them away and Im still an addict. Thats not to say that the substance or whatever should not be removed if there is a problem its just that it must be recognised for what it is and not blamed. The problem is internal.
If you don't like the sound of making love....
call it 'happy time' ....get-together-fun-time.....'get away from it all for 2 minutes time'.......'exchanging fluids fun fest 2010'....
to offer another opinion...i almost never have animalistic sex and only ever "make love", so to speak. i've tried, but i'm just too emotional. animalistic sex actually ends up making me feel very devoid, depressed, alone... i've only ever been able to achieve this without the negative when i've been INCREDIBLY drunk. but uh, that's not really something i aim for... heh. i need connection with sex, without it, i just don't see the point. i don't like feeling like i am only a vagina, easily replaced by another. i like to feel as if the sex is as much about me and our relationship as it is an orgasm.
i disagree on your second paragraph here. you are suggesting that anyone with an addiction has an underlying problem. many addictions are hereditary. why would alcohol for one person cause no problems, but become a completely destructive force for another? drinking alcohol is considered normal in our society. you can't say that the person who becomes an alcoholic did so on purpose. alcohol itself is not an addictive substance, but the brain can make it so. my father, now a recovering alcoholic, once had a seizure when he was forced to go without alcohol. it's very real.
porn may be slightly different, but as i suggested before... i could have possibly formed an addiction to porn easily. i noticed the tendencies and feelings in myself. i now avoid it because i can clearly see the affect it has upon my relationship. i never watched porn because i was unhappy, but merely because i was bored. this is not some form of denial. my relationship did not cause me to watch porn, but porn did cause my relationship to suffer.
i don't think everyone who watches porn will become an addict or a defunct individual, but i do think that porn is bad, through and through. when people drink, they are aware that alcohol destroys their liver and braincells. i think porn is the same. people should be aware that it changes their subconscious.
"After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it."
from this article: http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/
So on the one hand some of you are saying that its the attachment that causes the suffering but then on the other you are saying its the object of the attachment(ie-porn is bad). Which is it? Is it whatever personally suits you best at the time?
Porn may be 'bad through and through' for you but for some its positive. You may not like animalistic sex but for some its a beautiful thing. Life isnt black and white there are many shades of grey in between. Each to their own.
i don't think this is inconsistent for me. i still believe in psychology.
perhaps i shouldn't have used the term "bad" but "unskillful". that is a much better description, really. bad implies it is inherently evil, "unskillful" implies it is based in delusion, creating suffering. this description better aligns with my belief regarding porn, that it reinforces sexual stimulation via unrealistic means and decreases stimulation received from reality. sorry for the confusion, to me, it seemed the same.
i feel the same way about alcohol, you know. one could argue that "it makes people more social" and "a lot of people have fun when drunk" and "a little bit never hurt anyone"... but i still feel that it is unskillful no matter what.
it may be that attachment is the root of suffering, but that doesn't mean you have to throw yourself in front of the bus.
i wasn't saying that animalistic sex was bad. i think if you reread my statements, you will realize i don't say anything but a description of how *i* feel. i was simply describing my feelings toward sex. you said you never understood it. i find differences interesting, that's all.
I think even calling it unskillful is a judgement based on ones own beliefs and preconceptions. Its kind of patronising because it implies that anyone who doesn't conform is not as skilful as someone who does which I don't think is true. Maybe its better to see it as "For me it doesnt work but for others it does".
Anyway at the end of the day its all about attachment to the experience or thing and not about the thing itself. Money can also bring suffering if one is too attached to it and some would say that money is the root of all evil however I doubt many people would give it up. It can be used for good or it can be used for evil. Instead we can release our attachment and still have money and in the same way if a person enjoys porn and finds it stimulating they can still enjoy it but perhaps release their attachment to it. Whats good for some is not necessarily good for all.
I think it is safe to say that there are harmful actions that people ignorantly declare are not-harmful. Your notion of moral-relativism reminds me of the sophists.
I wonder if you would consider heroine a social good, because maybe someone can come along and use it for painkilling, like it was first used. Perhaps, certainly, one could interact with it skillfully. In my opinion, that would be abstaining from using it, as the substance is inherently fraught with pitfalls. It would be silly to regard it only harmful in the hand of the beholder. That only an addict would become addicted... have you done any study on addiction? There are actually substances that the body becomes addicted to, its not an excuse made up by weak minded people. Its biological.
With porn, there is more to it than you sitting there getting revved up to hump your partner. There are many more component factors, that even if you insist that your life it better off, it almost certainly is not, because you're digesting the other factors to which you appear wholly ignorant.
I'm sorry you considered my words patronizing, and I admit that when I first read your words I thought I was speaking to a child, so I was treating you like a child.
With warmth,
Matt
1.) What am I really desiring here? Am I really lonely and seeking connection with another human being? (This works both on a psychological level, as sex can be an affirmation of our own loveability, and on a physiological level as sexual orgasm, after all, releases oxytocin -- a hormone that makes you feel connected.) Am I seeking to feel known and appreciated? Am I seeking to alleviate or wash away my insecurities? Or am I merely seeking to release my sexual energy?
2.) Is the kind of sexual activity I engage in fulfilling my real needs? Am I getting what I really want from it? If not, why? Was I seeking short-term gratification when what I really need is long-term fulfillment? Or is short-term gratification all I need without the complication of long-term involvement with a partner?
3.) Am I simply using my sexual partners to galvanize my self-esteem? Do I believe that having a sexual partner (or many sexual partners) -- that being sexually desirable -- makes me a more valuable person in areas outside of just sexuality? Why and how so?
4.) Have I estranged my eroticism from the entirety of my life? Do I regard it as somehow "separate" from my everyday life? Why might this be the case? What would integrating my sexuality into the entirety of my living mean for me? Does that scare me? If so, what am I really frightened of?
5.) Do I resent or begrudge other people's enjoyment of their sexuality? If so, why?
6.) Am I using sexuality as a distraction from something? What could that something be, and how might I deal with it in a more direct way?
7.) If death is certain, but time of death is uncertain, what is really important? You can ask this on the micro-level ("...what is really important in my sexual relationships?") or on the macro-level ("... what is really important in life?")