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Love, Attachment, Suffering
Deformed
Veteran
I come to this forum with the intent of sharing my experiences where they lie at the moment. I have a small book of Zen writings, and I opened it up to use the first word I saw as my name on this site. Hello.
I have often heard it said that relationships can be the ultimate training grounds of mindfulness, and what I have found in the last few months is that they can indeed. This morning, at the moment, I find myself conflicted and at the edge of my relationship, wondering if mindfulness is jumping off or hanging on. Which way would be the direction to true practice of mindfulness? Are both?
It has not been long, only 3 1/2 months. Yes, the more attachment I get, and the ongoing experience of intense feelings I have never felt before, the more suffering I have brought upon myself. Some in silence, some shared. Should I be what I want to see in the relationship, or should I not be in the relationship?
I am not being abused or disregarded in this. To the contrary, I am treated with lovingkindness and communicated with. I see seemingly boundless beauty in this person in infinite aspects. I often find myself wanting to give love to this as well: something I have never wanted to do like this. But I cannot yet come to put full trust in this person. But is this the real issue? What is the nature of that?
But it is this morning that I dwell on our shared stories of unmindfulness: the open admissions of past mindless behavior. And I have so much gratitude for this openness.
More particularly, I dwell on the other person's living of lies within front relationships and addictions to this. And I dwell on the results of my own unmindfulness when it comes to me delving into the other person's affairs leading up into our relationship. I looked at a message I shouldn't have, from when we were just beginning months ago. I wonder if the other person has let go of the prior situation. I now observe how my own inquisitive being has created unnecessary suffering in myself, and possibly the other person. I have asked questions, and received answers, yet I am having trouble letting go.
Oddly, when meditating, monkey mind is at a minimum, and great focus has come out of it at times during this period of suffering. I wish to meditate every day, but out of mind wander and anxiety, I have not on a regular schedule of zazen. Out of this, I ask, does letting go mean leaving, or does letting go mean staying?
I have often heard it said that relationships can be the ultimate training grounds of mindfulness, and what I have found in the last few months is that they can indeed. This morning, at the moment, I find myself conflicted and at the edge of my relationship, wondering if mindfulness is jumping off or hanging on. Which way would be the direction to true practice of mindfulness? Are both?
It has not been long, only 3 1/2 months. Yes, the more attachment I get, and the ongoing experience of intense feelings I have never felt before, the more suffering I have brought upon myself. Some in silence, some shared. Should I be what I want to see in the relationship, or should I not be in the relationship?
I am not being abused or disregarded in this. To the contrary, I am treated with lovingkindness and communicated with. I see seemingly boundless beauty in this person in infinite aspects. I often find myself wanting to give love to this as well: something I have never wanted to do like this. But I cannot yet come to put full trust in this person. But is this the real issue? What is the nature of that?
But it is this morning that I dwell on our shared stories of unmindfulness: the open admissions of past mindless behavior. And I have so much gratitude for this openness.
More particularly, I dwell on the other person's living of lies within front relationships and addictions to this. And I dwell on the results of my own unmindfulness when it comes to me delving into the other person's affairs leading up into our relationship. I looked at a message I shouldn't have, from when we were just beginning months ago. I wonder if the other person has let go of the prior situation. I now observe how my own inquisitive being has created unnecessary suffering in myself, and possibly the other person. I have asked questions, and received answers, yet I am having trouble letting go.
Oddly, when meditating, monkey mind is at a minimum, and great focus has come out of it at times during this period of suffering. I wish to meditate every day, but out of mind wander and anxiety, I have not on a regular schedule of zazen. Out of this, I ask, does letting go mean leaving, or does letting go mean staying?
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Comments
Letting go of your own anxiety about the relationship (or all relationships) will help.
There is nothing wrong with being in relationships. Our relationships usually arent the problem.
The problem is how we react to them.
I do see the point, and thank you. Would you say that my wanting to leave out of mistrust, fear and/or non-acceptance would be the result of ego?
Mtns
Deformed,
It does appear that the difficulty is arising in your own mind. When we look at whether to leave or to stay, it is really simple.
Imagine for a moment that you walk into a dance club, where the music is really loud. The loudness of the music is physically painful for you! So, you yell and scream asking them to turn the music down. In this case, staying is unskillful, as the lesson is to learn to stop screaming at people just doing their thing. There is no reason that life needs to remain an endurance test, and we have no right to use our pain to insist that others change.
In contrast, imagine that you walk into an ethnic restaurant, where you are uncertain of the traditions of the meal, the names of the food, or how the situation normally unfolds. As you begin to feel uncomfortable with the unknown, it might become painful. However, it is just a matter of diligently watching, asking the right questions, and letting the meal be what it is.
In your relationship, do you find your partner to be acting in a way that is corrosive to your happiness (as in the dance club) or do you find your mind is afraid of the unknown (as in the meal)?
If you are just afraid, then observe what is happening in your mind and body, without panic. Just notice, and it will untangle as you see more of it. Jealousy and fear is normal, just do your best to sit with it when it arises.
As shengpa nangwa advised, staying or going doesn't matter. Until you let yourself sit and see directly what is on the plate and on the menu, and how it works with your individual pallet, you'll never really know. Or, until you notice that you are yelling, insisting that they turn the music down, (when its your ears that are hurting) that you know the problem is in the basic view. My teacher told me once that lasting relationships are ones where you are both observing the same basic elements in life.
As far as looking at something you should not have... isn't it funny how your mistrust was karmically reactive very potently in the moment? Those kinds of lessons are the best, as it is very clear how our own seeds produce bitter fruit.
With warmth,
Matt
Thank you aMatt for your help. It's very tricky for me because I can see the wrong views as they arise, yet they take hold of me and compromise what was graceful speech and actions just over a week ago within the relationship. I will sit with these feelings, and I may need to just open up to the other person about this event and its karma, but I need to have right intention behind this to do it.
It is amazing that I can see my shortcomings of my mind, yet still feel enveloped in the actual thoughts and feelings that result.
With gratitude,
D
Yes, I have read some of his material on this. Thanks.
Also, aMatt, I think I identify with the second story. Other than this incident, everything was much different as I have been treated very well with no quirks or things that put me off directly. But, I don't know if it is entirely the unknown that is bothersome for me. It is partially the known, because I now know (due to my reading of the message) where she was emotionally with the other person at the beginning of our relationship, after she had told me so many profound things about how she feels about me. But yes, the larger part is the unknown, as I wonder where this is now. I have asked and received answers from her, and she actually told me it hurt her feelings that I asked "where she is right now" with the prior situation, although she made it clear she was not angry at all or blaming me for asking. She was hurt and very uncomfortable that I asked, because she feels this relationship is so beyond that and profound for her, but was glad we communicated.
I have meditated twice, yesterday and today, and will meditate again tonight.
I understand what you mean by the second story, and being bothered by the 'known'. I have to say though, that it doesn't sound like it is the 'known' that unsettles you, but the unknown questions the 'known' brings to your mind.
The right intention, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with her, but has to do with your own steadfast intent to let it go, except perhaps in the intent to examine her side of your relationship in an understanding way.
If she was emotionally tied to others when she met you, isn't that ok? Isn't it more important that as the two of you have grown close, she tied off those loose ends? Sometimes we are not fully prepared for the relationships we discover, and when something big comes along, we have to adjust the rest of our universe.
Its great that you have continued the meditation, it will certainly give your mind the space to see this situation without becoming self-centric.
With warmth,
Matt
Yes, it is apparent that she was emotionally tied to the other person, and I have let go of that and understood. I completely understand this. What I am having trouble letting go is between my understanding of her past through communication with her and my understanding of her past through reading the message. Her relationship with the other person was not right action, because it was based on lies. Other people got hurt because it was dishonest. She has expressed her new path of change and practice, and I want to continue to encourage that in every way possible. But what I read was heart wrenching and karmic, because of where I thought she was overall at the time. She still attached to this other person, and it was left open ended. This was only about 2 1/2 weeks after we had been actually "dating", although she had already said the most profound things to me about how she felt about me. More profound than anything any other partner has ever said to me. I know she may not divulge every detail, and I really don't expect this. It just seems inconsistent (between what I have seen and what I have heard), and this is what my fear is tied to right now. In this aspect, I think much of my fear is about how "tied up" her ends really are, although there is nothing to indicate other than her expressions to me.
I would actually be relieved to solidly realize I am becoming self-centric. I am suffering badly right now with this. I am beginning to let small pieces go, and I am aware that this will too pass, because everything is impermanent.
I have continued to express my love to her, and encourage her in her practice. I do understand that now is not 3 1/2 months ago, and I am also still meditating and reflecting on how to tell her about my core reason for the suffering, which was my unmindful action.
I appreciate your responses, aMatt.
In gratitude, D
It does sound like you're clinging to the unmindful action, and the many arising forms that came from it, which is making you suffer (from being self-centric.) I wonder if you could look at in a different way? When you look at her pattern of deception, what purpose did it fill? Why did she behave poorly?
When I first met my girlfriend, she lied to me about a situation she was in, and it certainly bruised my trust. As I looked more directly, I could see that the lie was just her unskillful way of making a boundary, and so the lie was no longer about me, but about her needing a boundary and not doing it in the most healthy of ways.
It is only when I look at it such as "SHE lied to ME" that I suffer. I take it personally, and think that it might be difficult to trust her. However, when I see "SHE lied to protect herself" it is no longer about me, and I am intensely empathetic toward her for being fearful enough to create unskillful speech to try to protect herself from perceived harm. In interacting with her from empathy, we were both able to come to a mutual understanding that honesty was an important part of intimacy, and our intimacy was something we both wanted, so even when it is uncomfortable or frightening, we need to be honest with each other. It was no longer about her trespass against me, but one of the challenges to our mutual relationship. As it turned out, her fear was mostly surrounding the notion that I would not be accepting of her past, which our time together has naturally soothed.
In this way, I would hope that you can let go of it being about you, because there is no need for you to suffer. In fact, she might benefit from the assurance that you accept her as she is and as she was, with the hope that both of you are working to be more honest and intimate people, at least with each other. It is perhaps only when you take it personally that your mind and heart start to spin as though you're next on the list of deceived people.
Something that is ironic that I have found is that the more accepting you become, the more naturally honest others become when they talk to you. If there is no chance that the truth of who we are can disturb one's compassion for us, then it can be so relieving to simply be honest with exactly who you are and where you are, that it can almost pour out like a fountain.
With warmth,
Matt
It's interesting to read this after the last couple of days. The day before yesterday, I had a moment of clarity of sorts shortly before leaving work. Compared to other smaller but occasional moments like this I have usually during meditation or repetitious activity, this was much larger. During this moment, I felt at ease, like a huge weight was lifted from me. I drove home in bliss, but it wasn't a "high" of sorts; it was a balanced happiness. It was a momentary acceptance of everything. I had been letting go of small pieces during the day before, and at this moment I felt I had just let go of everything, and I felt a genuine happiness. I meditated outside before the day was over. I felt energetic.
Yesterday morning, I felt a little tight again, somewhat weighed down. During the day, letting go still seemed easier during the day, and the feeling of suffering was much less than the last two weeks. I still felt lighter into the evening, both of which I spent with my girlfriend talking about our upcoming travel and such.
This morning, I felt tight again, like a hollow pit in my stomach. I meditated this morning. I outline all this because it has to do a lot with some of the things you have written. There is indeed no need for me to suffer. It seems I have been beginning to let go of my suffering and replaced it with giving compassion and empathy. I am beginning to accept, and those periods are becoming more often, although I understand this practice is a process. I am realizing there is no destination here; when I see things more lucidly and at ease, I need to keep meditating and practicing.
Thank you for reminding me that nothing is being done "to" me here. This is her, not me.
I have become self centric, you are right. I had been so accepting of her past, and she knew it. It was most graceful. This, of course, until I did a rather unmindful action that permeated my presuppositions. Then, I became less accepting. But what I saw that I created suffering for always was: I just happened to see it at that point. Before I saw it, I accepted. After it, I suppose I can accept as well. Maybe new fears have begun to come out of this: "Does she see me as less accepting now that I have asked questions and been somewhat fearful about them?"
A question as well. Why are mornings the hardest? Is this just me? Also, thank you for sharing your experience too, as it has been helpful.
In gratitude,
D
It sounds like you're moving away from a self-centric view into one with more openness, which is great. Its not that being self-centric is bad, but when we root our perceptions into the self, everything becomes about us and we end up owning everything. What a burden that creates for us!
I hope you can examine and accept that your bruised trust (perhaps we could call it 'fear of being deceived') is only half of the disruption, the other half is her pattern of deception. Both patterns interrupt the intimacy, but with time it will heal very naturally. Just stay open, examine your fear as it arises, and let it go before it takes root in your heart and blooms suspicion in your mind. Suspicion will certainly hurt her sense of acceptance, which is what assures her it is safe to be honest.
Right now, she might see you as less accepting, just as you see her as less honest. If you simply deal with your fear, then I am sure that the bump will smooth. Your natural empathy will take over, and you'll be very available to her if and when she becomes scared.
As far as it being tighter in the mornings, I wonder if you remember your dreams? Often, when we are recalibrating our mental outlook, our sleeping mind defragments, which could lead to some emotionally congruent types of dreams, which would remain rooted in your fears. I imagine that is why it is more noticeable in the mornings, because your body has been churning and developing/accepting the new perspective.
With warmth,
Matt
This actually happened last night. During the last day, I have been reflecting on how I have not been openly available emotionally. I consoled her when she was expressing some fears about me growing away from her; fears that she was embarrassed about. It felt good to be light enough to be available in the present moment.
Also, I have been listening to some of Rinpoche's dharma talks about trust, and it really summed up many of the realizations I have been having during the last couple of days, specifically in how what as I have been seeing as trust is really just expectations. I have been practicing letting go of these expectations to be available in the present moment and give.
I am realizing first hand that learning this practice does and will come from the experiential. This is what attracted me to the practice in the first place. This has been time to grow from the suffering, and turn it into compassion. I believe Thich Nhat Hanh called suffering the "compost" for giving compassion, in this case, to give to the relationship.
I go through periods of remembering dreams, but recently I have not had any lucid memories. I would think, though, that the mind would be moving very rapidly coming out of deep REMs. Possibly my thoughts are not settled in the morning?
Thank you again for your input, aMatt.
In gratitude,
D
Its great that you were open enough to engage her in a place that could help her feel at ease, and is certainly a sign of right intention coming up for you to practice. I agree that it is wonderful to be a practitioner, because we are able to use all of the moments we have to learn and grow.
Rinpoche in an honorific title meaning teacher or reincarnated teacher, depending on who you ask, and is not a last name.
As far as the morning, I would say that perhaps, and only speculation, that this pattern you are confronting has enough volitional weight behind it that it is more than a single night's digestion. Delving too deep into analyzing forces is usually not helpful, so perhaps just accept that its normal, and with time will be less distracting. Morning meditation can also help set healthy patterns for the day, if you can manage it.
With warmth,
Matt
And with growth, I feel myself taking steps forward, a step back, and a few steps forward again. When I take a step back, I am observing certain characteristics in my thought patterns and behavior. The most obvious I see is my perceived need to "fill in the blanks" with my own story. When I do this, I become reactive to every little thing that happens that I believe supports my story.
Letting go, perhaps, not only pertains directly to what we have talked about, but also letting go of what I think I know altogether. I certainly don't want deluded mental comforts, but at the same time I don't see storytelling and analytic behavior helpful.
Perhaps I need to be mindful that what I don't know is a lot more than what I do know? That certainly seems comforting to me, but is it reality? Because I only feel the need to get true contentment and happiness these days out of reality, not mental masturbation and comforting delusion.
Also, I just wanted to say I do not keep repeating "I" here out of self importance, rather in a manner of journaling details of thought and emotion and having mindful exchange about them to learn. Yes, I agree it is great to be a practitioner. I was available again last evening to her, and she reminded me that she appreciates the openness and acceptance so much.
Sorry, I meant to write Trungpa Rinpoche. And out of curiousity, how long have you been practicing? Thanks.
In gratitude, D
D,
This seems to be a great intention. I wonder, could you pull it back and see that what you 'know' is already changing? Because everything evolves and is in a state of transition, there isn't a need to really 'know' what was, only to be present and skillfully interact with what appears. By the time it arises and passes, it is no longer the same as when you observed it in the first place.
In my view, it would be in the acceptance of this that the comfort is really to be found. Because everything changes, we don't have to 'know'. That's not to say that we don't become more skillful or well rooted into how reality works, but when it comes to people and events, we let go, and let 'is' just be 'how it appears' without trying to make it permanent, without assuming we are seeing it clearly, and we especially avoid using our creativity to fill in the gaps, so we can pretend to 'know' that which we have not observed.
Using "I" as a convention is fine by me. I don't interpret it as "ego", but as a function of communication.
How long have I been practicing what? Mindfulness? I've been somewhat 'awake' I guess since I was 19, or 1996, though I was only aware... not very stable or well rooted. My practice really took off when I began engaging with a few authentic and well established teachers, which was in 2003 I think. Maybe aught 4.
With warmth,
Matt
This is yet another teaching. Real 'happiness' comes when you let go of assumed control. Your practice does not stop when you stop meditating; it's more important when you get up.
Much love man and good luck.
Thank you for this observation. There are countless things that happen in the moment that I have assumed I am seeing clearly, and I can certainly see how our creativity can create images of reality in our mind that bring us to the lowest pits of suffering or the highest expectations that are almost always shattered by reality. The creative mind can be the most beautiful means of communication, though, and I need to practice using creativity skillfully.
I am an artist, or strive to be, so it gives me some insight at times, but other times the loose mind can be my worst enemy. It can create detailed storylines, embedding the worst fears imaginable in them. Indeed, observation will change what I do "know" already, and observation comes from nothing other than being in the present moment. When observation is clouded, it is from nothing other than not being in the present moment. I believe TNH stated that availability in the present moment in relationships (like anywhere else) gives us an opportunity: "you are your own master".
As well, it has clouded observations of my own unmindful past. Instead of looking to observe it, I have been shutting it off completely as if it didn't exist, in lieu of analyzing her situation. What I have been deluded about is that I didn't begin the small changes and practice of mindfulness until about 2 years ago, when I stopped using alcohol and all other mind altering substance. She has characterized her situation and patterns as an addiction as well, and she is newer to this practice. How irrational my expectations have been, and quite selfish may I add!
Yes, practice of mindfulness. That's great that your awareness began so early. Thanks for that.
As I mentioned, I began "unplugging" about 2 years ago. I have a teacher who has been practicing for about 15 years I believe.
In gratitude,
D
Thank you, ravkes. Yes, we have no control over others, just as they have no control over us. This is why putting practice in my own mindfulness is the only way to do something conducive for the relationship. Quite simply, it has been a more advanced "training ground" with this, considering the feelings are stronger than prior relationships.
You observation that this woman is a gift is ringing true though practice: no words anyone can say can make it true; I can only find it through living.
In gratitude,
D