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I dont think I like my teacher
My teacher seems like an asshole. I've been with him for almost a year and he's never asked me anything about myself. Not to mention, he never does what he says he will do. And his big saying is "I can't teach you anything." well then what is the dharma? he's never once gave a "dharma talk". I am becoming very frustrated. The other day, I showed up for a meditation session and nothing was set up. no cushions no zafu's. He said "oh, so you desided to show up? Your girl let you out of the house?" Never once has my girl ever kept me "in the house" and never once have I "not shown up". What if someone else showed up? Now my teacher is not a monk. He's a regular dude who inherited a Zen Temple from an old korean monk. He has girl problems and bills and works a job. I feel like I want more out of a teacher, is that too much to ask?
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My teacher doesn't have to be perfect, and I can accept his humanity, but I expect the following:
(1) that he can answer my questions when I'm having trouble applying the teachings, and
(2) he shows me through his behavior that he has more skill living his Buddhism ... modeling for me where I should be somewhere down the road if I do my practice (and it's a place I WANT to be).
I have a primary teacher, and his kindness and gentleness never fail to inspire me. I have been fortunate to have been exposed to other teachers in my tradition (Tibetan Buddhism). In my experience, however, it is generally the students who set up the classroom, and the teachers don't inquire into our personal life beyond "how are you?"
There is a stillness, a lightness, a warmth, a gentleness, a sincerity, a calm alertness, a tendency to laugh (and some of them giggle easily) ... if not all of these qualities, then most of them. And they make you want to be a better Buddhist.
Google dharmanet.com to find sangha/teachers in your area.
Be willing to change traditions ... I am not in my first-choice tradition (that's a long, other story), but the results come regardless of the tradition.
Be willing to settle for a teacher you see only occasionally, maybe as rarely as once a year, because they live out of your area.
A teacher of skillful means is indeed a precious jewel, or great value to our progress.
The dharma ... we can learn that from books, as long as we have someone of wisdom who we can take our questions to from time to time.
Think outside the box, as they say.
Good luck on your search. The Eastern Megalopolis (New York/Philadelphia/Baltimore/DC) should have lots of offerings. Having grown up in Wilmington/Catonsville/Wheaton, I know that occasional travel between the cities is not that difficult (I live in Edmonton, and the only other large city in Alberta is a 4-hour drive away ... distance is always relative)
There are a lot of Buddhist centers and teachers near where you live.
The only positive thing you seem to have gained from this experience is that you now know the qualities you don't want in a teacher!
Mugzy- He is a trained teacher, kinda. He studied with his teacher for like 7 years before his teacher had to return to Korea. Thats how he inherited the temple. Not to mention, we practiced koans, so i guess you really don't need alot of direction for them.
seeker242- i might do that.
jinzang- ill come check you guys out in the near future. looks like sunday would be the day.
Okay, I guess I misunderstood your original post regarding his training.
As I understand it, the practice of teaching koans requires experience in analyzing and helping others to contemplate them properly. Your post made it seem like he wasn't prepared or able to help you.
good for you.
I agree with this. I was Soto Zen, but there was no teacher close by at all. There was however a Jodo Shinshu Temple a few blocks from my home.
I've been there for 15 or so years now and am extremely grateful for it. It took some adjusting but it was definitely worth it. There is something to this business of not being too stubbornly attached to a specific idea.;)
I'm glad, perhaps it will help him understand the issues you are having with his teachings.
I apologize if you feel like I've never taken an interest in your life outside of the sangha. I generally don't try to pry too much into other members' lives outside of what they bring to class. If there was something you wanted to talk about, or something you wanted to bring up, I generally open every class with "Does anyone have any questions?" You very rarely did, but when you did, they were very insightful questions.
When it comes to Zen, especially koan, I can't teach you anything, for all the reasons we talked about in class. I can't rob you of the moment of understanding the koan by yourself. I can instruct you on things like how to sit, posture, breathing. I can't answer the koan for you.
I don't know what you mean when you say I've never given a Dharma talk. You've been there for quite a few. They don't tend to be very expository, again because of the nature of our teaching. If you've heard any of our teachers' talks, you know that they can often seem confusing on the surface. Very rarely are any kind of straightforward responses given. Dharma talks in our tradition are not like sermons, but reflections on koan & its process, and thus, do not offer answers for you, unless they are answers for you to question. The amount of words I offer wouldn't be able to come close to Yunmen's response. Truthfully, my teaching method offers a lot more exposition and straight answers than when I practiced under my teacher. Every interaction with him is a koan interview, so I do understand your frustration.
I apologize if my comment the other week upset you. That was the third meditation session in less than four days. You had already come out for the other two. In the past you'd made a comment to a similar effect about the amount of time you spent at home vs. at the temple. After the second session, I had mentioned to everyone that the session on Thursday was in no way mandatory. You said you might come, depending. I wouldn't want anyone getting burned out. While I admire your dedication, I certainly wouldn't want anyone's involvement in the sangha to also tax their personal relationships. So yes, it was a comment made in jest, and certainly not meant as an affront to yourself or your lady, and your donation to the Musclar Dystrophy Association was greatly appreciated.
That said, if you feel that our sangha is not a match for you, that's not something I would begrudge you. The wonderful thing about Buddhism, even when narrowed down to the Zen traditions, is that it has many different approaches to meet many different needs. I've found the tradition and method that works for me, but I certainly wouldn't insist that it's for everyone. If you'd like to talk about this further, I'm more than willing to.
<O:p</O:p
It’s no big deal that you didn’t take an interest in my life outside the sangha. I see the error in my thinking- we don’t need to be friends. You are the teacher and I should have been the student and not tried to be your friend. Lesson learned.
<O:p
I am assuming that you not being able to teach me anything besides breathing, posture, and how to sit is a lineage thing. Other traditions can tell you about various states of mind that will arise while sitting. They tell you things to avoid and things that might come up and what to do when they do. People have been practicing for thousands of years and I’m sure they’ve figured some things out that can be taught to us. I am not looking for you to answer the koan for me. But at least tell me where to go to find the answer, or what I might see along the way, or what pit falls to avoid. This is one of the reasons I am moving on.
<O:p
I have listened to lots of “dharma talks” online from the insight or vipassana tradition and they are nothing like the conversations and discussions we would have every week. They are usually structured where there is a question and answer period at the end. The talks usually have a title or direction like fear, anger, happiness. I do not recall you giving a prepared dharma talk that had a specific topic. Often your talks turned to arguments, far from the dharma talks I am used to. I am sure you know the way you spoke to some students was uncool. That is what I meant when I said you never gave a “dharma talk”.
<O:p
I accept your apology about my lady comment. It probably was made in jest but it was received differently. No need to talk any further. I am moving on.
When someone doesn't want to hear it at all, or when they don't ask you about you then it seems as if that person is distant. It's nicer to have a teacher that cares about you and who you are. Then you start to care about that teacher more, maybe even feel they're a master to you not just a teacher.
Very good quote, no teacher is perfect, but the best ones can teach anyone and you will remember most of their words forever.
baltimore
hehehaha
i dont get it?
My observation is that in Buddhist practice, the past may have something to do with who one is now, but isn't what one is now, because it's the past, not the present moment. Perhaps a teacher is one who doesn't show us which ways to go on the path, but how to be with the path where we are walking at the moment.
Is waiting for one to care first part of ego?
Beware! How you describe your situation and your teacher seems full of emotion and even aversion. It makes it hard for us to see the reality.
You may like to investigate the story of Gampopa and Milarepa or consider the Zen tradition by which the teacher refuses to teach the student.
Liking your teacher or your teacher liking you are irrelevant. Of course you can walk away but, as you tell it, there are no other teachers near you. Sometimes we have to find the teaching within the unsatisfactoriness.
I presume that you are an adult student so do you not think that you are asking for 'baby bird' feeding? Why should 'your' cushion be put out for you? Why should your Dharma teacher be interested in your past? Aren't you confusing Dharma practice with therapy?
You might like to consider what one of my more irritating teachers said to me: "Patience is Nirvana in Samsara." You have a perfect opportunity to practise patience and benevolence. I suggest you take it with gratitude.
There are other teachers around, not alot of Zen teachers, but there are others.
Yes I am an adult student- not sure what the 'baby bird' reference is all about. Are you asking if I think I am asking my teacher to spoon feed me? NO. Do I think "my" cushion should be put out for me? NO. The past makes us who we are today. If i hitchhiked around the country and studied with lots of yogi, and stayed in zen temples, the teacher might want to know that, right? No, I am not confusing Dharma practice w/ therapy. I know I got work to do and I am the only one who can do it. I'm not looking for someone to solve my problems.
What I have seen through experience and others telling me is that hard relationships provide great training grounds for practice. I certainly have thrown around the idea of abandoning the deeper aspect of this relationship, but then the very difficult practice would cease with the situation.
I do understand that it seems like a tough decision on what to do in these situations- leave or stay. Maybe like unpleasant feelings, it is better to sit with them and practice showing them compassion.
Although I do not know the full nature of your situation, I can relate to it.
No it's not part of the ego. It's part of not being oblivious. If you care for someone, show them respect, show them hospitality and they don't show it to you back after a while, it's time to leave these people be. A teacher cannot be good if they do not care for their students. It means they're just reading out of a book with no intention to check for errors to correct, or to check the nature of their student and adjust their teaching style.
Even the Buddha would change his teaching style based on who he was teaching and how they were. Because sometimes people need to be taught in different ways, based on their personality.
If I don't say what I want from someone, is it my fault or theirs when the don't deliver what I'm expecting?
You say that he never gave you a dharma talk like what you're used to. did you discuss this with him? say that you need a more structured environment? say that you would like for him to take more of an interest in your personal life? now add a why to those questions. it seems like this desire has created more problems than it has created solutions.
if you did, then maybe he should. but if you never did, how can he possibly know?
(I'm assuming this is a He)
that would be your fault for expecting. so i shouldnt expect direction from a beginners dharma meeting? you know come to find out, Ive been sitting wrong for a year now. i thought he would have help out with that. My first visit to another group, they said "sit like this, its much easier" and it worked.
Yes- to all these. He would just come back with "I can't teach you anything". As far as my personal life, I can't tell you how many times we were suppose to do stuff and he would fall off. (I showed up for all his events) He would call hours before meeting up somewhere, confirm that we were suppose to meet up, and then not show. Thats fake to me and I dont need it in my life.
You know its a He. You were invited here by him. You lived with him for a while. Please dont fake too.
Well not wrong. She asked if i was used to sitting the way i was sitting and i said yes. She said she didnt like sitting like that because her feet fall asleep that way. So she suggested sitting saiza. Magic! My feet haven't feel asleep since.
I'll respond to you bit by bit.
Originally Posted by CPaul
If I don't say what I want from someone, is it my fault or theirs when the don't deliver what I'm expecting?
that would be your fault for expecting. so i shouldnt expect direction from a beginners dharma meeting? you know come to find out, Ive been sitting wrong for a year now. i thought he would have help out with that. My first visit to another group, they said "sit like this, its much easier" and it worked.
I never said you shouldn't expect direction. I did say that if you don't explain what it is exactly you're trying to look for (Direction is helplessly vague and not useful. direction in what? scripture reading? interpretation? koan? zazen? what?) you're not going to get it. and even if you do explain exactly what you're looking for, you still may not get it.
Apparently you have problems with your posture. I'm probably the least flexible person that you'll ever meet, well, if we ever meet, at least. I've gone through position after position after position. I probably tried a new position every day when I was in Korea. The seiza bench was too high, the pillows were too low and lacked the proper incline; my back was not straight enough, and my hips just would not open. My feet went numb, and it hurt to breath. But did I ask anyone's permission to try different positions? NO! if you're uncomfortable with the way you're sitting, change it. do you really need to ask for permission? and even still, you would have to have brought up your specific problem (which I have no idea if you did or not, and even if you did, what works for him won't necessarily work for you. feel lucky that what works for the person that told you to try seiza does.), not just some guise of "I need guidance!"
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;"> You say that he never gave you a dharma talk like what you're used to. did you discuss this with him? say that you need a more structured environment? say that you would like for him to take more of an interest in your personal life? </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Yes- to all these. He would just come back with "I can't teach you anything". As far as my personal life, I can't tell you how many times we were suppose to do stuff and he would fall off. (I showed up for all his events) He would call hours before meeting up somewhere, confirm that we were suppose to meet up, and then not show. Thats fake to me and I dont need it in my life.
You know its a He. You were invited here by him. You lived with him for a while. Please dont fake too.
He can't teach you anything. Well, I'm sure he can teach you lots of things with regards to things non-dharma related. He can teach you how to throw a good punch, or shoot a 9mm. But the Dharma is an inquiry solely your own. short of the basics, which from what I gather you never asked, there is nothing to teach.
as for the flaky part, yeah, JB can be flaky. no argument there. but so can you, and everyone else. I challenge you to find someone that, after you've known them for any extended period of time, isn't flaky at some point or another.
Zen is about taking responsibility for yourself. If you're so angry about sitting in the same stupid unbearable position for a year, you should have sat differently. who better to know what position is correct for you than you?
and if you'd indulge my curiosity...
what, other than suggesting the seiza position, have you been taught by this new teacher?
something you would think a good teacher would notice and point out to his student after a year. i didnt know i had bad posture until someone pointed it out. and i didnt ask permission.
whatever, listen to a good dharma talk by any good teacher online and see if you dont learn something. and you dont know what I asked in class, you were never there, and if HE told you, then thats fucked up.
flaky? i said fake... i didnt know him long enough to flake on me...
never said i was angry. i was explaining one of the million reasons why i have left that teacher.
i never said it was a teacher that suggested seiza. im still looking for new one of those.
So you're disappointed that he didn't know exactly what you were looking for, either? I still can't figure out why exactly it is you're upset on this point. You just said you were looking for something, but aren't sure what, are are/were disappointed that he didn't offer it to you.
"something you would think a good teacher would notice and point out to his student after a year. i didnt know i had bad posture until someone pointed it out. and i didnt ask permission."
I hardly agree with this in the slightest. My spine is compressed due to years of sitting in front of a computer. But the difference between what for a long I *thought* was sitting straight and what actually *is* sitting straight is barely noticeable when I'm looking at myself in the mirror with my shirt off. And I only found this out because I got an x-ray. There is no possible way anyone could know my posture was so screwed when I'm sitting still with my shirt on. I don't know your specific posture issues, but like I said earlier, if you don't like the way you're sitting, it's your responsibility to change it. zen teachers aren't chiropractors.
"whatever, listen to a good dharma talk by any good teacher online and see if you dont learn something. and you dont know what I asked in class, you were never there, and if HE told you, then thats fucked up."
that doesn't answer my question.
"flaky? i said fake... i didnt know him long enough to flake on me..."
same thing, different word.
"never said i was angry. i was explaining one of the million reasons why i have left that teacher."
forgive me for assuming that people exaggerate their position when they are angry. If you could please list the other 999,999 reasons, maybe we can get on the same page.
Anyways, at the BZC, it's Korean Seon. It's not Japanese Zen, which is what most Americans have been introduced to via online dharma talks or through books, or Tibetan, or Theravada. It is probably (I'd guess. this is only a guess. don't get all out of shape about it) the least known style in America. Even Kwan Um, the school that is supposidly "korean zen" doesn't practice koans like they do in Korea.
Koan practice isn't for everyone. if it's not for you, that's all you need to say. If you weren't "learning" anything, then that's perfect with regards to koan practice. you sit there, and you try to answer it. all the other stuff that you *could* learn is irrelevant to answering the koan. With regards to the practice, there is absolutely nothing to teach, short of the koan itself.
Also, there are seiza benches at the BZC (I know, because I donated one of them!). Why didn't you try to use one of them?
that was beautiful serenity. i agree. i once had a teacher that was not interested in my past religious problems, and so those problems stayed in the way of my progress. i was told to let them go; i couldn't. now i have a teacher that listened and responded, so the past was able to get behind me to a great degree, enough so that i can study and meditate again.
Beautiful Addictions:
Why limit yourself to Zen? You may wish to try other dharma centers to see if any fit you.
What progress?
>i was told to let them go; i couldn't. now i have a teacher that listened and responded, so the past was able to get behind me to a great degree, enough so that i can study and meditate again.
Show me the times in your past in which there are religious problems. don't tell me about them, show me.
Beautiful Addictions: my feeling is that you should listen to your own intuition and don't allow others to make you totally wrong.
"Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances."
- The Buddha
Keep doing what you're doing and you will find your path. I think, though, that you already have.
"Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will only lead to delusion."
- The Buddha
The only real thing I can add is that you read and understand The Four Noble Truths, and follow The Fourth Noble Truth. That is, if you're so inclined.
Cheers!
But the true learning is experiential. Not only this, but the student (as we all are) is always changing with each experience, every moment of "now". I find it difficult to see how an experiential practice has anything to do with the "nature" of the student in a teacher relationship, being that this nature is impermanent, or even how one (especially on the outside of the relationship) can assert the degree in which the teacher "cares".
Perhaps assumptions get in the way of cherishing each moment, pleasant or unpleasant, as a means of practice.
In gratitude
D