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Mindfulness for people with ADD

edited October 2010 in Philosophy
Does anyone else here have (or believe they have) Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)? Where your mind is constantly trying to move from one thing to another, and it's difficult to stick with one thing for very long?

I have this condition (or something like it) and it often makes it very challenging for me to sustain focus and concentration on one thing. At the same time, I have learned the immense value of mindfulness, and the necessity of finding ways to transcend the distractions of ADD in order to practice mindfulness.

Would others here who have ADD (or a mind that frequently wanders) care to share some of the techniques they've found for maintaining mindfulness and focus? What ways have you learned to keep your attention focused on one thing?

Another question I would very much like feedback on is: has the practice of mindfulness helped "cure" you of ADD? Have you noticed a decrease in mental distraction, as a result of mindfulness, meditation, the practice of awareness, etc.?
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Comments

  • edited August 2010
    Seems to me that meditation is the original cure for "ADD," which I'm not completely sold on as an authentic disease or disorder or whatever you want to call it. All of our minds wander. That's just the nature of the mind. Meditation can not only help you understand this, but it also has the side-effect of calming and stilling the mind in the process.

    My job requires enormous amounts of multi-tasking which often leave me feeling completely out of breath and fragmented at the end of the day. Meditating before and after work helps me regain a sense of wholesomeness and clarity.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Hi Zendo. This is an important topic and it will become more important with time it seems. For reasons that are not certain diagnosis of ADD and ADHD are growing fast along with diagnosis of ASD (autism spectrum disorder). Leaving aside debate about whether it is the incidence that is growing or the diagnosis, developing skillful means for folks with that constitution will come to the fore IMO. My wife and I have been working with our son (who has wicked ADHD) on meditation and have had real success. It involves a "rough and tumble" form of Shikantaza. If you are interested I'll post about the approach, but I am aware that you are already well experienced in meditation.
  • edited August 2010
    Thus wrote: »
    All of our minds wander. That's just the nature of the mind.
    This is undoubtedly true, and I think some minds tend to "wander" much more than others.
  • edited August 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    Hi Zendo. This is an important topic and it will become more important with time it seems. For reasons that are not certain diagnosis of ADD and ADHD are growing fast along with diagnosis of ASD (autism spectrum disorder). Leaving aside debate about whether it is the incidence that is growing or the diagnosis, developing skillful means for folks with that constitution will come to the fore IMO. My wife and I have been working with our son (who has wicked ADHD) on meditation and have had real success. It involves a "rough and tumble" form of Shikantaza. If you are interested I'll post about the approach, but I am aware that you are already well experienced in meditation.
    I would be very interested to hear more about that, Richard: please share as much as you can about it. Thanks.
  • mugzymugzy Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Thus wrote: »
    Seems to me that meditation is the original cure for "ADD," which I'm not completely sold on as an authentic disease or disorder or whatever you want to call it. All of our minds wander. That's just the nature of the mind.

    I feel similarly towards ADD; I think it is over-diagnosed. I believe that some people may genuinely have a condition where they are unable to keep their attention on one thing, and that their lack of focus (due to a biological condition) could cause them problems in work, relationships, etc. I am not convinced that all cases are truly ADD / ADHD, especially when it involves children.

    As you say, all our minds wander, and many people must multi-task and split their attention between many different things at once. At work, there may be phones ringing, people talking, things happening, papers to be filed, work to be done, mental distractions of stuff to do after work, ugh! (It makes me stressed just thinking about it!) Does this mean that someone has ADD because they can't keep their minds on one object at a time? My mind frequently wanders away. The practice of meditation helps me become aware of this.

    I don't know, I'm not a doctor, so I can't speak with any authority on this subject. It has just been my opinion that the disorder has been misapplied to many people.
  • edited August 2010
    I don't know about ADD, but the rise in cases of autism seems purely due to a change in how autism is diagnosed. Prior to the change a lot of people had what was considered language difficulties or were simply 'the weird kid in class' Here is a fluff article on the topic if interested.

    I don't really know much about ADD and ADHD other than the diagnoses doesn't seem to be based off any objective standard the way autism is. I think I could meet the criteria simply because my brain likes to wander and sometimes makes it difficult to fall asleep as it's hyper active in thinking about things. I imagine it would depend on the doctor. Meditation and mindfulness exercises throughout the day are very helpful.
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Thus, I agree with you. I really don't believe in ADD or if there is such a thing it is overused. I know if I went in to see however gives this type if diagnosis I would be told that I have ADD. But I believe that it is natural for our minds to wander, but I also think that mindfulness can help your mind to wander less.

    To further explain, my nephew has ADD. He is on drugs, but when he was not on them he was getting Ds in school; now he gets As. I saw him when he was off the medication, and he had so much energy, but actually he was a lot of fun. I could not help but join in. I have no idea if he could have gotten As if someone had helped settle him down or if he really needs the medication.

    But there are others that claim that they have ADD and I think NOT.

    Hope things work out for you. Meditation does help.
  • edited September 2010
    Thank you all for sharing. It appears most people here are more interested in the question "Is ADD even real?" than the question I actually posed; so I will shift gears and address that question as well.

    I, too, am skeptical about new psychiatric "disorders," and when this one first came out I scoffed at it. The psychiatric profession is linked to the drug industry, and there is a temptation for some of the less-scrupulous psychiatrists to invent new "disorders" to match new drugs that come out, in order to create markets for those drugs. (I saw a presentation about this at Harvard last year, it was shocking.) The DSM-IV is now bursting with bogus conditions, too many to mention.

    In the case of ADD, there are many degrees on the distraction spectrum, and people fall in different places, depending on how "bad" they have it; but at the extreme end, you've got people who have great difficulty sticking with one thing for more than a few minutes at a time. This isn't about "multi-tasking," it's about a condition of the mind (and I use the word "condition" not in the clinical sense, but in the Buddhist sense, i.e. conditioned arising) where maintaining simple focus is a constant challenge.

    Call it what you will, "ADD" or something else: but whatever label you give it, it exists; and the proof of its existence lies in the experience of those who have it. If you have it, you probably won't be among those who "doubt" its existence; and if you are questioning its existence, you probably don't have it.

    The "cure" (in my experience) seems to lie in the practice of moment-to-moment awareness, or mindfulness: because distraction is based on unawareness (your mind just wanders off, unheeded). The more you cultivate awareness, the harder it is for your mind to wander unheeded, because you "catch" it as it starts wandering: you gain control of your mind.

    This practice (mindfulness) may also be a "cure" for many other "disorders" that plague humankind. For it seems to me that much (if not most) human error can be traced to some form of not paying attention/not being aware.
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    edited September 2010
    What I just learned today from a teacher is the the drug companies pay the schools when a kid is put on adhd drugs. and so the school pushes the teacher to get more of her kids on the drugs. One teacher said that her kids don't have it, that all she has to do is discipline them some.

    Sorry, I don't have an answer for you, but I wanted to point this out.
  • edited September 2010
    Yikes! That's scary, Jessaka.

    Do you happen to have a source (like an article or something) for that info, Jessaka? I would like to read more about it, if it's true.

    Also: I love your signature! Can you please point me to the place where the Buddha said that?

    Thanks!
  • edited September 2010
    zendo wrote: »
    Does anyone else here have (or believe they have) Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)? Where your mind is constantly trying to move from one thing to another, and it's difficult to stick with one thing for very long?

    I have this condition (or something like it) and it often makes it very challenging for me to sustain focus and concentration on one thing. At the same time, I have learned the immense value of mindfulness, and the necessity of finding ways to transcend the distractions of ADD in order to practice mindfulness.

    Would others here who have ADD (or a mind that frequently wanders) care to share some of the techniques they've found for maintaining mindfulness and focus? What ways have you learned to keep your attention focused on one thing?

    Another question I would very much like feedback on is: has the practice of mindfulness helped "cure" you of ADD? Have you noticed a decrease in mental distraction, as a result of mindfulness, meditation, the practice of awareness, etc.?

    I have ADD. Had it as a child for several years, was taken off due to side-effects. Was put back on medication a year ago. It is very real. Yes, minds wonder naturally, but not like this. I was having difficulty focusing in class and work, and eventually degenerated into not being able to hold a simple conversation due to lack of concentration. It's frustrating to see all of your relationships fail/not even take off because you can't even hold a conversation... lead to depression, etc. (how I was re-diagnosed with ADD). Yes, it is a very real condition (and yes, is also misdiagnosed much, won't deny that!)

    I am on Vyvanse 30mg daily. All side-effects aside, it works well. It was prescribed to me because of the impact ADD had on my relationships, not my work.
    Off medication, I can only concentrate well for short bouts (30 minutes on, 3-4 hours off), though I do tend to get several hrs worth of "normal people" work in those 30 minutes. I try to do meditation throughout the day to help with this. When walking from class to class, I am aware of my breathing, my steps, etc. When in class, try to be aware of my breath and focus on no-self. Basically, make do it so often that it becomes a habit and feels awkward when you don't do it. I cannot be mindful very well without medication, though meditation + medication = very good. Without medication, even for one day, I usually have 3-4 people (especially my girlfriend) commenting on my different mannerisms.

    I've also used meditation (just breathing) as a way to clear my mind when I am off meds as a way to snap out of constant zoning-out. That usually gives me another 20-30 minutes of good thinking before my mind scrambles again.. It's very frustrating

    Hope all goes well for you
  • edited September 2010
    jessaka wrote: »
    What I just learned today from a teacher is the the drug companies pay the schools when a kid is put on adhd drugs. and so the school pushes the teacher to get more of her kids on the drugs. One teacher said that her kids don't have it, that all she has to do is discipline them some.

    Sorry, I don't have an answer for you, but I wanted to point this out.

    I am unaware of this. I don't report my ADD to my college, so they don't know. As far as primary/secondary school goes, this would be frightening if true... ADHD drugs are nothing to mess around with.
  • edited September 2010
    I have ADD. Had it as a child for several years, was taken off due to side-effects. Was put back on medication a year ago. It is very real. Yes, minds wonder naturally, but not like this. I was having difficulty focusing in class and work, and eventually degenerated into not being able to hold a simple conversation due to lack of concentration. It's frustrating to see all of your relationships fail/not even take off because you can't even hold a conversation... lead to depression, etc. (how I was re-diagnosed with ADD). Yes, it is a very real condition (and yes, is also misdiagnosed much, won't deny that!)

    I am on Vyvanse 30mg daily. All side-effects aside, it works well. It was prescribed to me because of the impact ADD had on my relationships, not my work.
    Off medication, I can only concentrate well for short bouts (30 minutes on, 3-4 hours off), though I do tend to get several hrs worth of "normal people" work in those 30 minutes. I try to do meditation throughout the day to help with this. When walking from class to class, I am aware of my breathing, my steps, etc. When in class, try to be aware of my breath and focus on no-self. Basically, make do it so often that it becomes a habit and feels awkward when you don't do it. I cannot be mindful very well without medication, though meditation + medication = very good. Without medication, even for one day, I usually have 3-4 people (especially my girlfriend) commenting on my different mannerisms.

    I've also used meditation (just breathing) as a way to clear my mind when I am off meds as a way to snap out of constant zoning-out. That usually gives me another 20-30 minutes of good thinking before my mind scrambles again.. It's very frustrating

    Hope all goes well for you
    You are just the kind of person I had in mind when I wrote this post, SyntheticKinetic: thanks so much for sharing your experience, and I encourage you to keep practicing.

    I am glad the meds are helping you out. I took Addirol(sp?) for awhile, and found that I got more work done; but I no longer take it.

    I believe meds are only a temporary fix (though in some cases quite effective). The true cure will be found in the other things you're doing: meditating, becoming aware of your breath, practicing mindfulness, etc. These practices have done more for my mental well-being than the temporary fix of meds could ever do: because meds wear off, but the growth we gain from continuous practice stays with us.

    I believe the practices of Buddhism and other Eastern spiritual paths--practices like meditation, mindfulness, lovingkindness, awareness, harmonious interaction with nature, etc.--can provide a psychological framework in which many of our "disorders" can be ameliorated, and in some cases cured outright.

    Question: how long have you been employing these methods as a way of dealing with your condition?
  • edited September 2010
    zendo wrote: »
    You are just the kind of person I had in mind when I wrote this post, SyntheticKinetic: thanks so much for sharing your experience, and I encourage you to keep practicing.

    I am glad the meds are helping you out. I took Addirol(sp?) for awhile, and found that I got more work done; but I no longer take it.

    I believe meds are only a temporary fix (though in some cases quite effective). The true cure will be found in the other things you're doing: meditating, becoming aware of your breath, practicing mindfulness, etc. These practices have done more for my mental well-being than the temporary fix of meds could ever do: because meds wear off, but the growth we gain from continuous practice stays with us.

    I believe the practices of Buddhism and other Eastern spiritual paths--practices like meditation, mindfulness, lovingkindness, awareness, harmonious interaction with nature, etc.--can provide a psychological framework in which many of our "disorders" can be ameliorated, and in some cases cured outright.

    Question: how long have you been employing these methods as a way of dealing with your condition?

    I have always been good with time management, as in studying only when my concentration is good and not wasting my time when my mind is pre-occupied.

    I have only been doing meditation for about 3-4 months, and mindfulness throughout the day for only about a month now. I am by all means a novice and understand that my small gains are par. I just need to keep working and I think it'll get better.

    Whether or not a cure can come from meditation I think is dependent on both the seriousness of the case and the individuals determination. I would see a lowering of dosage (20mg is lowest) as a long-term goal for myself. The less amphetamines pumping through my system the better.

    Are you off of adderall because of you have replaced it with meditation then? How do you practice mindfulness? I simply try to focus on the breath (I may even start making my cell phone buzz every 10 minutes to remind me to breathe in class) and my feet while walking. It's a bit harder to focus on the breath while in an active conversation though (even without ADD; I've seen threads dedicated to this subject!).
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    edited September 2010
    zendo wrote: »
    Yikes! That's scary, Jessaka.

    Do you happen to have a source (like an article or something) for that info, Jessaka? I would like to read more about it, if it's true.

    Also: I love your signature! Can you please point me to the place where the Buddha said that?

    Thanks!

    The woman who told me this has a business here in town and is an honorable woman. She was a teacher, and her daughter was a teacher and quit. That is what her daughter learned as a teacher. she was also scolded for not getting some of her students on the drug. So, there is no source other than what her daughter experienced when she was a teacher. She recently quit teaching due to the politics she experienced.

    Here is a website that validates what I was told by her:

    http://www.afreshopinion.com/bringing_up_children/

    Here's a chilling fact: Some schools get kickbacks for labeling children. A financial incentive for labeling children who could then end up on drugs. I understand that schools have financial pressures, but this is NOT one of the ways to relieve that pressure.

    What is written in my signature I got from a website of Buddha's quotes, but it gave no scripture. Sorry. This website repeats it, but still no scripture: http://personal-development.com/chuck/power-of-words.htm
  • edited September 2010
    jessaka wrote: »
    Here is a website that validates what I was told by her:

    http://www.afreshopinion.com/bringing_up_children/

    Here's a chilling fact: Some schools get kickbacks for labeling children. A financial incentive for labeling children who could then end up on drugs. I understand that schools have financial pressures, but this is NOT one of the ways to relieve that pressure.

    What is written in my signature I got from a website of Buddha's quotes, but it gave no scripture. Sorry. This website repeats it, but still no scripture: http://personal-development.com/chuck/power-of-words.htm

    I'm not so sure about that website, it's a personal blog from a site with the word "opinion" in the URL and the man's blog provides no references. However, the story about your personal experience with your teacher friend is shocking. If this is true, what that school is doing (along with the pharmacy company) is highly illegal. More importantly though, it's dangerous for the kids. I've been on Ritalin as a kid, I'm on Vyvanse now - I keep my doses as low as possible. These drugs are not to be messed with and I have had some of the more serious side-effects. They should be a last resort and temporary measure, not a financial incentive. I will have to look into this some more.

    On a less serious note, I think I'm going to live out the rest of my day with your awesome signature in mind.
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    edited September 2010
    what i feel you are trying to say is that the quote i made doesn't go along with my lack of proof, that you basically desire more proof. All I can say is that this teacher is a pillar of our very small community. But if you are making that point, it is very understandable. The second link below shows a very reliable source that can relate to this issue somewhat. It is at least showing how much fraud is in our system.

    here is a good website you all may wish to read anyway:

    http://www.fightforkids.org/targeting_children.html

    And here it is from an even more reliable source:

    http://www.psychbusters.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=28

    On April 28, 1992, Congresswoman Patrician Schroeder, D-Colorado, chaired hearings before the Select committee on Children, Youth, and Families, subsequently published under the title: "The Profits of Misery: How inpatient psychiatric treatment bilks the system and betrays our trust." The testimony, in part, went as follows:

    "What we're going to be talking about today is the disturbing practices in mental health care that seem to be taking place from coast to coast. Our investigative team found that thousands of adolescents, children and adults have been hospitalized for psychiatric care that they really didn't need." "Hospitals hired bounty hunters to almost kidnap patients." "...(they) would go into schools and initiate kickbacks to counselors who could find students that had mental health insurance." "Bonuses were even paid to employees if they could keep beds filled."

    and this: http://healthwyze.org/index.php/component/content/article/410-davie-county-school-system-north-carolina-homeschooling-corruption.html
  • edited September 2010
    jessaka wrote: »

    Jessaka, fightforkids is sponsered by CCHR, which is based in scientology. Scientologists' do not believe in mental disorders of any kind - in science we call this type of funding conflict of interest. I am very accepting of scientologists views (I know many who are not), but there is a blatant unavoidable bias here. Although it doesn't change any facts the website may provide, it does degrade credibility. Same with the psychbusters. They both appear, to me, as completely rejecting psychiatry as a profession.

    As far as Patrician Schroeder goes, NME, an unethical pharmaceutical company, was rightfully sued and shutdown. After reading up on this, I was shocked to find some horror stories - one example was a patient's healthcare paying $10,000 for alcoholism, but $50,000 for depression, so NME would switch the diagnosis for more money!

    Bottom line - Are there unethical companies, including pharmaceuticals? Yes.
    Is it difficult to diagnose children with ADHD? Yes.
    Is ADHD over-treated? Absolutely.
    Are amphetamines an absolute answer? No.
    Are amphetamines, taken as directed and monitored by a physician, one of the better options available today? Unfortunately, yes.

    I think meditation is definitely a route worth exploring, and one that I am exploring right now. Meditation has helped me, but I need much more practice before I would feel comfortable abandoning medicine.

    I think this thread has deviated a little from Buddhism :confused: . Does anyone have any recommendations/tips for me and meditation? I am currently trying awareness of breath as often as I can to help keep my mind focused throughout the day. What other things could I be doing?
  • edited September 2010
    jessaka wrote: »
    The woman who told me this has a business here in town and is an honorable woman. She was a teacher, and her daughter was a teacher and quit. That is what her daughter learned as a teacher. she was also scolded for not getting some of her students on the drug. So, there is no source other than what her daughter experienced when she was a teacher. She recently quit teaching due to the politics she experienced.

    Here is a website that validates what I was told by her:

    http://www.afreshopinion.com/bringing_up_children/

    Thanks! I will check this out.
    What is written in my signature I got from a website of Buddha's quotes, but it gave no scripture. Sorry. This website repeats it, but still no scripture: http://personal-development.com/chuck/power-of-words.htm

    Thanks for this resource. I've contacted the author to see if he remembers where he got it (I'll let you and Synthetic know, since clearly all three of us like it!)
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    edited September 2010
    You are much better at research than I am synthetic.
  • edited September 2010
    jessaka wrote: »
    You are much better at research than I am synthetic.

    I've had too much practice. My not-so-merciful mentor has forced me to read into research papers before I use them for references in my own research, now it's habit =/.

    I'm interested to see the response from this man, maybe more light will be shed?
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    edited September 2010
    if he is the same man that i wrote to he said he googled. kickbacks, schools, ritalin. thing about scientology and drugs is that i agree with them. i have long been against drugs of most kinds. but that is neither here nor there. but it is great that you learned how to read research papers. that has taught me a good lesson on checking things out.

    personally, i think mindfulness meditation can help, but i thought from your post that perhaps you practice it. in fact i think one can train the mind in regards to a lot of things, that even depression can be cured though positive thinking, for example. i know that when i practiced a zen meditation my mind was more calm and less active in the way that you are speaking of. i have only begun to take up meditation again.

    if you google adhd and meditation there are some websites. i will let you check out the validity of them.

    http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1475.html

    http://jad.sagepub.com/content/11/6/737.abstract


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alvaro-fernandez/study-meditation-against_b_103534.html
  • edited September 2010
    Are you off of adderall because of you have replaced it with meditation then?
    I stopped using it because I don't like to put synthetic drugs into my body unless it's absolutely necessary. Since (for me) the practice of moment-to-moment awareness is both healthier and more effective than artificial drugs, I saw no reason to keep taking the pills.
    How do you practice mindfulness?
    To me, practicing mindfulness means practicing being aware as often as I remember to (that is to say, as often as I "wake up" from the sleepy, hazy dream that life usually is, and return to real life again, to being awake).
    I simply try to focus on the breath
    I do that too sometimes, while meditating: I think it's a great and effective practice.
    (I may even start making my cell phone buzz every 10 minutes to remind me to breathe in class)
    Interesting idea!
    It's a bit harder to focus on the breath while in an active conversation though.
    In a conversation, I would try and focus on the conversation. Focusing on something other than the conversation (even the breath) would almost seem to defeat the purpose of being present. It's challenging enough for me to stay focused on the conversation--I often wander off in my mind.

    But I'm getting better at that: I'm catching my mental tangents a lot more often now, and a lot sooner. The mental conversations, fantasies, stories I get so absorbed in (none of which is real!), I'm nipping those in the bud much more quickly and effectively than I used to.

    What I do is, as soon as I realize I'm off on some fantasy, I say the word "Stop" out loud. Or "Caught--Back--Now." Just some quick, peremptory words, designed to revert me back into the moment.

    Another "mantra" I use is "Be here now," which I got from the Ram Dass book of the same title (which, if you haven't yet read it, I recommend).
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited September 2010
    The way we taught our child with ADHD was the way it shook out for my own practice after much struggle in the early going. (the acorn doesn't fall far...). It is best seen in a Zen context of Zazen as being the goal rather than as a means to a goal.

    We have given him a clear understanding of the difference between an "object" in the common usage of object of eye, ear etc., and "object" in the context of meditation which is "object of awareness". This includes the totality of sensations internal, external, subtle, and gross. So everything both inside "me" and outside "not me" are one sensation. Awareness is conceived as the basic space in which we live and move and have our being. It just a provisional reference, and not an entity, but we wanted to help him establish a silent or still witnessing.

    The practice is to sit (in his case quarter lotus) for just 10 minutes. The only task is keeping the posture. In this posture he is first encouraged to recollect the qualities of basic space, or awareness as basic space..... Space is an absence that is filled with the presence of the whole body, the meditation room etc. Space is the absence that is filled with the presence of feelings and the whole body .... Space is the absence that is filled with the presence of thoughts and moods and feeling and the whole body.... Space is not stained by whatever passes through it. Space is a pristine transparency in which all colors fully shine.....

    .....This contemplation of the qualities of space is important

    There is a clear understanding that absolutely everything that happens, every thought, every feeling, no matter what its content, density, speed, thickness, is absolutely ok. There is no such thing as the wrong state of being... only hold the posture.

    After several months and without pushing too hard he was able to sit for twenty minutes in this way. There was a diminishing of thoughts but still much going on which he understands is just fine, just his constitution. The important part is that he has begun to open to a background stillness more and more. He also does not often loose awareness even when in flight. He is undivided, not struggling with himself. He says his centre of gravity is has shifted from the thinking to the background. At this point he is too young to enter much into anatta and dissolving that background awareness, because he is still in the process of developing a strong and healthy sense of self. Once he is mature that background awareness/space can be looked at, which will be his journey. But for now we just wanted to give him a strong witnessing capacity. I do not think it is wise to take it further. When he is older he may wish to continue with a proper teacher.

    Once having established the witness dissolving it will follow as a natural deepening. "the bottom falling out of the bucket" .
  • edited September 2010
    What is written in my signature I got from a website of Buddha's quotes, but it gave no scripture. Sorry. This website repeats it, but still no scripture: http://personal-development.com/chuck/power-of-words.htm
    I heard back from Chuck Gallozzi, the guy whose page you pointed me to.

    He doesn't know what scripture the quote in Thao/Jessaka's signature came from.

    If anyone can tell me, I would be grateful.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Doesn't ring a bell. Looks like a very liberal paraphrasing of something.
  • edited September 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    The way we taught our child with ADHD was the way it shook out for my own practice after much struggle in the early going. (the acorn doesn't fall far...). It is best seen in a Zen context of Zazen as being the goal rather than as a means to a goal.

    We have given him a clear understanding of the difference between an "object" in the common usage of object of eye, ear etc., and "object" in the context of meditation which is "object of awareness". This includes the totality of sensations internal, external, subtle, and gross. So everything both inside "me" and outside "not me" are one sensation. Awareness is conceived as the basic space in which we live and move and have our being. It just a provisional reference, and not an entity, but we wanted to help him establish a silent or still witnessing.

    The practice is to sit (in his case quarter lotus) for just 10 minutes. The only task is keeping the posture. In this posture he is first encouraged to recollect the qualities of basic space, or awareness as basic space..... Space is an absence that is filled with the presence of the whole body, the meditation room etc. Space is the absence that is filled with the presence of feelings and the whole body .... Space is the absence that is filled with the presence of thoughts and moods and feeling and the whole body.... Space is not stained by whatever passes through it. Space is a pristine transparency in which all colors fully shine.....

    .....This contemplation of the qualities of space is important

    There is a clear understanding that absolutely everything that happens, every thought, every feeling, no matter what its content, density, speed, thickness, is absolutely ok. There is no such thing as the wrong state of being... only hold the posture.

    After several months and without pushing too hard he was able to sit for twenty minutes in this way. There was a diminishing of thoughts but still much going on which he understands is just fine, just his constitution. The important part is that he has begun to open to a background stillness more and more. He also does not often loose awareness even when in flight. He is undivided, not struggling with himself. He says his centre of gravity is has shifted from the thinking to the background. At this point he is too young to enter much into anatta and dissolving that background awareness, because he is still in the process of developing a strong and healthy sense of self. Once he is mature that background awareness/space can be looked at, which will be his journey. But for now we just wanted to give him a strong witnessing capacity. I do not think it is wise to take it further. When he is older he may wish to continue with a proper teacher.

    Once having established the witness dissolving it will follow as a natural deepening. "the bottom falling out of the bucket" .
    This is very interesting, Richard: thank you for taking the time to share it.

    I get the impression you are an exceptionally conscientious father. Many parents (it seems to me) have their hands full feeding, clothing, educating, etc. their kids, without really delving into such subtleties as you are describing here. But what you are doing sounds like a very wise investment into your son's future and well-being.

    May I ask how old your son is now, and how old he was when you first began this process?

    Also: is your wife a Buddhist?
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited September 2010
    ...Sorry for not replying sooner.

    Thank you for the kind words. Our son Will is 12 years old, and we began to introduce this practice when he was 8. My wife is also Buddhist, we took refuge together shortly after we married in 1990. We have a Buddhist household in that the Four Noble Truths are normal values. Just recently we took him to meet a senior Monastic in the Thai Forest Tradition who was visiting the local monk who blessed Will as a newborn. He had practiced his bows and it was a very moving for us to see him honour these beautiful people. It bodes well for him. We have always been conscious to not lay a Buddhist heavy in our son, making it clear to him that he must make his own choices when the time comes, but we believe the insights and values of Buddhism are basic to wisdom in general. He is a wise kid. Smarter than me, and better behaved.
  • edited September 2010
    Your son must have carried forward some good karma from a previous life: for to be born into such a family is a rare gift. As the Buddha says,
    "Hard it is to be born,
    hard it is to live,
    harder still to hear of the way,
    and hard to rise, follow and awake."
    And again:
    "The awakened are hard to find.
    Happy is the house where a man awakes."
    It gives me hope to hear a story (for once!) about parents mindfully bringing up their child. You hear so many stories about dysfunction, neglect, etc., i.e. "sleeping" parents. My parents were in a deep sleep through most of my childhood.

    It will be exciting to see how Will develops. Sowing the golden teachings of the Buddha into his childhood mind and spirit will surely yield him a rich bounty of blessings in the years to come.
  • edited October 2010
    Sorry to really broaden or change the topic a lil bit....
    Having studied psychology as an undergraduate, I did have some personal issues with the labelling factor based using somewhat vague models, and disconcerting on some of the researches conducted...some cleverly adjusted to try and show a certain desired result
    But i remember having a discussion with this helper who lives at a Buddhist monastery, and they would regularly go to this mental clinic, housing many schizophrenics or psychosis patients... or others im not aware about...and they would regularly give left over food from the dana's to them. He would say that they were "nice guys" and alot of them had just gone through difficult life circumstances (like job loss, losing family member etc) which have just become compounded leading to what ppl classify as schizo or whatnot... So i asked him if he thinks these disorders are physical originated (ie brain)or of the mind/spiritual...and he told me he thought it was all the mind...which might have signs on the physical....something which i also often believed to be the case.
    Have you guys seen this blog: http://spiritualrecoveries.blogspot.com/2006/05/culture-and-mind-psychiatrys-missing.html (2nd and 3rd parts seem to be missing..)
    The link given is of the comparison of a greater proportion of schizophrenics returning back to normal mental condition and less relapsing in places like India with a greater familial support network, and somewhat less acceptance of schizophrenia as a disorder.....than developed Western countries...with more emphasis on drug treatment and hospitalisation.

    Also on the Dr Loren Mosher case of finding more effective non-drug treatment for schizophrenics, which seemed to have had an adverse reaction by pharmaceutical companies and psychiatrists: http://spiritualrecoveries.blogspot.com/2007/01/dr-loren-mosher-still-crazy-after-all_11.html

    I'm not saying anything about ADHD cause i don't really have authority or lacking enough knowledge to speak about it, just that maybe there are much better ways to go about it than drugs?

    Also with the meditation or mindfullness practice ppl are doing to calm the ADHD... has anyone experimented or whatever...on say going on a 10+ day forest retreat (no mobile phones, no tv, no comp... just nature and all its glory) I don't know if you guys have any place close to you that you can do this, but its definitely worth trying and see what the effects on your ADHD is? Retreat meditation, at least for me, makes such a huge difference than doing it at home.
  • edited October 2010
    Sunny066 wrote: »
    Sorry to really broaden or change the topic a lil bit....
    Sunny, you have enriched the topic, for which I thank you.

    The link about the schizophrenic who was cured in poverty-stricken India is very hopeful and inspiring! In addition to the conclusion reached (that family support is a significant aid to recovery), I would also suggest that in poor countries, they don't have so much distracting technology. One of the greatest evils we face here in the West is that technology has taken over our minds: everywhere we go, we're bombarded with electronic stimuli. We're half in "the Matrix" already, our lives run by computers everywhere we go. It's no wonder people are losing touch with reality.

    That's why I think your suggestion of going out into nature and meditating is one of the best prescriptions of all for a sound mind, and I have found that when I've done this, I've felt closer to Reality (or Truth, or the Buddha Nature, or the Source, or Alignment, or God, or the Universe, or whatever you want to call it--the Deeper Reality underlying the apparent reality, of which the Buddha often spoke) than at any other time in my life.

    Indeed, the soundest and most whole I've felt in many years was when I spent several weeks at a Zen mountain monastery a couple of years ago. With each day that passed in that pure environment (pure both physically and spiritually) I felt better, happier, and more connected with Reality.

    That's why I'm eager to return to a Buddhist monastery, possibly for the long-term. (I'm currently looking at Tisarana, a monastery in Ontario, Canada, which is a Thai Forest monastery. I have an idea that the Thai Forest tradition might have a greater kinship to nature, which is what I love.)

    So I totally agree with your "diagnosis," Sunny! Thanks for sharing. :)
  • edited October 2010
    I hear ya. In my experience...i could also feel more connected, and like your sense of self is slowly dissolving away, and even all the words of teachings, stories and divisions created in thinking, like a deeper reality unfolding. I wasn't there long enough tho.. wishing to hopefully arrange another retreat

    lol i wouldn't go as far to say its a 'diagnosis'... more of a speculative or inquisitive suggestion. But all the best to you in getting your retreat happening.

    Pharmaceutical companies these days now seem to b a big business...and you can't help but feel a little weary when alot of their profits rely on people's attitude to a perceived mental illness or something. Designer drugs for things with the mildest of issues...got a significant pop'n almost hooked or addicted. Sure there are good pharmaceutical companies... with good intentions at least, but for companies to survive must be effective at pushing a positive image of themselves, and they are quite good at it.
  • edited October 2010
    Sunny066 wrote: »
    Pharmaceutical companies these days now seem to b a big business...and you can't help but feel a little weary when alot of their profits rely on people's attitude to a perceived mental illness or something. Designer drugs for things with the mildest of issues...got a significant pop'n almost hooked or addicted. Sure there are good pharmaceutical companies... with good intentions at least, but for companies to survive must be effective at pushing a positive image of themselves, and they are quite good at it.
    This is an example (one of many, alas!) of how apparent reality, which is an illusion, becomes "superimposed" over actual Reality. What starts out as a legitimate aim (utilizing the science of chemistry to positively change human life) falls under the sway of false ideas: financial profit becomes the goal, which leads to trying to convince people they need something they don't, which leads to concocting bogus "disorders" to create markets for new drugs; etc. etc. in an ever-descending spiral of errors leading to further errors.

    This is why the Buddha warned us against attaching to ideas. Ideas are not reality, they're only ideas about reality. When we buy into ideas without using wisdom and discernment, we open the door to countless errors.
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I was "diagnosed" with ADD as a child, and I remember they used to fill me with Ritalin, even going so far as to crush the pills up and put it in my food without my knowledge.

    I don't think I have this "ADD" I just have many things that catch my interest at any one point in time. That does not mean I cannot be mindful as well.
  • edited October 2010
    I have something similar to ADD... some might consider much worse - schizophrenia. I know we're not dealing with the same illness but my mind wonders so far sometimes that I loose all touch with reality. Sometimes it's so bad I think of ending it all.

    Ok... so what I do when my episodes hit is I turn of everything. TV, music, my computer. I'll put my most cofortable sweatshirt on and snuggle in my bean bag and meditate... just watch my breath until it passes.

    It's just what works for me. I think bean bags should be considered a form of therapy. :p
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited October 2010
    milkmoth, I didn't know meditation helped with psychosis... I thought it would actually make it worse. Well, you learn something new every day. Thanks for sharing.
  • edited October 2010
    Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) is actually present in everyone to a certain extent.
    Distractions. Multi-taskinng etc dissipates attention and makes concentrating on a certain thing difficult
    Wandering is a habit of the mind therefore the name 'Monkey Mind' is created.
    Meditation helps to reduce this Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) by reducing distractions and improving concentration. :)
    This also happens to me during meditation. When I focus on the breath or on a crystal ball or a mantra, random rapid thoughts from nowhere would intrude and cause a lot of problems. If i don't stop those thoughts they will drone on and on without end until i realized my mind have been wandering and I'll bring my attention back to meditation.
  • edited October 2010
    Are you kidding? :) If it wasn't for Buddhism and meditation I'd be a gonner.
  • qohelethqoheleth Explorer
    edited October 2010
    Hello everyone,

    I have recently been diagnosed with adult ADD. I've not tried any meds at all, so far, but am open to the possibility. ADD seems to have been passed through more than one generation in my family. When I asked my father what his dad was like, he summed him up like this: "Your grandpa never finished a goddamn thing he started!" My dad did Grade 9 two and a half times before dropping out. He said he wasn't dumb (and he isn't), he just couldn't pay attention in class. I, too, have a history of unfinished projects. I can be obsessed about a subject for a day or two, only to completely forget about it the following day. Also, my mind voraciously looks for something to chew on, and if I find I have too much time on my hands, it sometimes starts to turn on itself. If I haven't been meditating regularly, I can easily slip into ultra-mindlessness, losing my keys, forgetting that I had food on the stove, etc.

    Anyway, two years ago I was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes, which means I actually have to eat sugar... something I never really did as an adult (but did tons of as a kid). Through experience, I've learned that my mind is much harder to control when I've had more sugar. Unfortunately, though, if I start to go hypoglycemic because I miscalculated my insulin/carb ratio, I need sugar right away to prevent myself from going unconscious. So I'd say that ADD has both genetic and dietary causes. It has also been demonstrated that childhood environmental conditions can contribute to this "disorder" (or whatever you want to call it). Sugar is the worst.

    That said, it is also made worse simply by the over-stimulating modern world we find ourselves in. Probably every working westerner has it to some degree. It could also be seen, in a Buddhist sense, as being the effect of long-term unskillful use of the mind. Meditation of some kind is key. Through my research, I've also learned that exercise, and particularly yoga and martial arts, are good for people with ADD. Additionally, many people have improved their condition by cutting common allergens out of their diet, mostly wheat and dairy (in addition to ALL forms of sugar - if possible!). I know this is not Buddhist advice, specifically (which I'm not qualified to give), but it may prove helpful. Also, I'd recommend reading Jon-Kabbat Zinn (if you haven't already) as he applies mindfulness techniques to modern "psychiatric" conditions... "Full Catastrophe Living" is a good one.

    Incidentally, I am also a teacher and have worked as a Special Ed. teacher for a year. I can say that ADD/ADHD is real. Go teach a class of grade 5's for a day, and you'll quickly get to know who is manifesting symptoms! It is true that some kids with ADD-like symptoms go from being D students to A students when prescribed ADD meds. I've seen it (although I never personally suggested it to a parent of a student with ADD). And it's true that schools may receive additional funding based on the amount of students diagnosed with learning disabilities. Anyway, any conscientious teacher/principal in Canada (where I work) would never suggest drugs to a child's parents unless they felt it was critical to the child's success and well-being, and only after all other options had been thoroughly explored and exhausted. Accommodations/modifications are constantly being made in the classroom to keep kids with short-attention spans focused: no sugary snacks, lots of movement and exercise, bouncy chairs, squeeze-balls, kinesthetic learning materials, multi-media lessons, and so on. An astute teacher with a reasonably sized classroom (25 kids or less) should be able to keep all of the kids engaged most of the time (although it's becoming increasingly more difficult, as kids come to school all buzzed out from sugar and video games)!
  • edited October 2010
    milkmoth, I didn't know meditation helped with psychosis... I thought it would actually make it worse.
    Why in the world would meditation make anything worse?

    It's one of the best things you can do.
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Actually zeno, there are many situations where meditation can make things worse. There is such a thing as meditation-induced psychosis. It's not for everyone.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited October 2010
    unskillful-meditation-induced psychosis, maybe. Basic mindfulness Meditation is the practice of sanity. If someone in dwelling on "concentration" practices that can happen.
  • edited October 2010
    What would be a similar contemporary word similar to mindfulness.
  • edited October 2010
    qoheleth wrote: »
    it is also made worse simply by the over-stimulating modern world we find ourselves in.
    This is the main culprit, IMO: Western society is far too over-stimulating. TV is the biggest culprit, and it's getting worse. Each new generation is being conditioned more to a constant rapid-fire barrage of electronic data, and our sense of harmony with the rhythms of nature gets more and more lost.

    But that harmony is our true and original nature, as the Buddha said: "All human beings are truly enlightened, and shine with wisdom and virtue. But because their minds have become deluded and turned inward to the self, they fail to understand this." (Kegon Sutra)

    And in the Surangama Sutra he points out that we've lost touch with our fundamental nature: "Your mind is fundamentally wonderful, bright, and pure, and because of your involvement with the things of the world you have covered it up and lost it."

    We need to uncover the wonder and brightness and purity of our true nature, which has been lost and buried under a deluge of stimuli.
    Meditation of some kind is key. Through my research, I've also learned that exercise, and particularly yoga and martial arts, are good for people with ADD.
    Excellent suggestions, thank you.

    To these I would also add communion with nature. I was watching The Last Samurai yesterday (I love that movie), and you could see how the main character was healing by being in the beautiful mountain setting, immersing himself in the study of martial arts and swordplay, Zen, and the perfection of the human spirit.
  • edited October 2010
    Actually zeno, there are many situations where meditation can make things worse.
    I don't believe this is true at all. I would be surprised to learn there was even one situation where meditation could make things worse, let alone "many."

    But if you have some support for what you're saying, I will read it.
  • edited October 2010
    What would be a similar contemporary word similar to mindfulness.
    Perhaps "presence"? As in, being in the present moment (as opposed to past or future).

    "Focus" might be another close relative. "Attentiveness," "attention," "awareness."
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited October 2010
    zendo, sure here are the results from a quick search...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1428622
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10561951
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17848828

    http://www.openbuddha.com/2002/09/06/the-dangers-of-mediation/

    You can find heaps more if you look. You never know what will throw a person off. Some of the more dangerous kinds of meditation are kundalini and transcendental.
  • edited October 2010
    zendo, sure here are the results from a quick search...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1428622
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10561951
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17848828

    http://www.openbuddha.com/2002/09/06/the-dangers-of-mediation/

    You can find heaps more if you look. You never know what will throw a person off. Some of the more dangerous kinds of meditation are kundalini and transcendental.
    I read the content of all of these links, and they're completely unconvincing.

    The idea that sitting calmly and quietly and focusing the mind could be harmful to your health is one of the more absurd things I've heard in recent times. On the contrary: meditation has been shown to have beneficial and therapeutic effects on both body and mind.

    Personally, I've only ever experienced very positive effects from meditation, and this has also been the case with every other meditator I've known. I've never heard a single person say meditation "harmed" them.

    But presumably you yourself have experienced adverse effects from meditation? And that's why you're trying to convince people in a Buddhist forum that meditation--one of the cornerstones of the practice--can be "bad" for them?

    Or is it entirely based on your reading of these studies?
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited October 2010
    zendo, no I have not had any adverse effects. I don't remember where, but I've heard that good teachers are meant to ask if anyone has had any sort of mental illness and then monitor those people to make sure they don't have any serious adverse effects. It might have been on this forum or maybe Gil Fronsdal.

    It's also common sense. The mind doesn't normally like to be examined, so it can throw all kinds of things at you. If the mechanism which decides what's real isn't working properly (by effects of SSRIs or schizophrenia), then the brain can react quite unpredictably to the tricks of the mind.

    The articles are just a confirmation.
    But presumably you yourself have experienced adverse effects from meditation? And that's why you're trying to convince people in a Buddhist forum that meditation--one of the cornerstones of the practice--can be "bad" for them?

    I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Anything can be bad for a small minority of individuals. That doesn't make meditation bad, it only means that it can make 1 thing worse in a small minority of people.

    I hope that makes sense.
  • edited October 2010
    zendo, no I have not had any adverse effects. I don't remember where, but I've heard that good teachers are meant to ask if anyone has had any sort of mental illness and then monitor those people to make sure they don't have any serious adverse effects. It might have been on this forum or maybe Gil Fronsdal.

    It's also common sense. The mind doesn't normally like to be examined, so it can throw all kinds of things at you. If the mechanism which decides what's real isn't working properly (by effects of SSRIs or schizophrenia), then the brain can react quite unpredictably to the tricks of the mind.

    The articles are just a confirmation.

    I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Anything can be bad for a small minority of individuals. That doesn't make meditation bad, it only means that it can make 1 thing worse in a small minority of people.

    I hope that makes sense.
    Thanks for the clarification--and I also apologize for my tone in the previous post, it was a bit unskillful. (A quick examination of my motives for writing it that way revealed a mental attachment to the idea that "meditation is good," which I will continue to look at.)

    I do, however, want to clarify a point which I believe is slightly misleading. Rather than saying "meditation is bad for a small minority of individuals," perhaps it would be more accurate to say that a small minority of individuals have issues within themselves that prevent meditation from working properly in their case.

    For I do believe meditation is a fundamentally beneficial practice. If, in a small minority of cases, it is resulting in negative outcomes, that must be because some defilement of mind is blocking it from having its usual effect.

    I remember when I first began practicing Zen meditation: it was excruciating! I winced at the things that came up in my mind, painful memories and so on. But it would be inaccurate to blame the meditation for this pain--it already existed within me. Like you say: the mind doesn't normally like to be examined, so it can throw all kinds of things at you.

    So maybe the conclusions of these studies are inaccurate: it's not the meditation that's to blame for the negative effects, it's something that already exists within the person's mind.
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