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I'm going to leap in here and try and do my bit to balance the situation. I'm just playing Devils Advocate so please don't shoot me down in flames ! :rarr:
I know some of the things that Ajani said have riled a few people. What we should remember though is that he is trying to make sense of what he is currently studying in school. Maybe this isn't the right place to be doing this and I know some of the more informed members of the forum have been trying to give him a more balanced view to that which he is currently being taught.
However, it must be a bit mind blowing for him to find that what he is being taught at school doesn't necessarily tie in with what we understand the events to be, and we should perhaps make allowances for this.
Maybe he does sometimes post things without thinking first (eg, the fox hunting comment in the vegan thread) but this can be seen as an opportunity to have a discussion rather than have a go at him. He is still young (strewth, how patronising does that sound?!) but some of the things he's come out with in other threads have been quite insightful.
Perhaps we should look at him as a Bodhisattva sent to teach us patience and tolerance!
P.S. I can't think of anyone that's a hero of mine
"I am telling you directly that a) This thread is about Heroes and b) Comparing Hitler to an individual from a Harry Potter Book, is not displaying "Maturity" just mind numbing "Stupidity".
Abraham you are spot on, this thread was supposed to be about Heroes instead in has been hyjacked by stupid some kid who is having a laugh at our expense.
I think we should slap an ASBO on him or tell the Singapore Cops he has been a very bad boy who has been dropping chewing gum on the streets again.
Neither Hitler nor Stalin could be considered "heroes" in any accepted sense. Both presided over and sponsored the systematic murder of millions of their own citizens. Stalin managed to survive and there have never been any criminal trials following his regime as there were following those of Hitler and Hirohito, but he also managed to orchestrate even more deaths than Hitler.
If you want to look for heroes in the Third Reich, look at Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
The Great Helmsman, Mao, warned (ironically enough) against the "cult of personality" and the 20th Century will surely be remembered as the century of personality. Marx and Engels wrote about dialectical materialism and the force of history, having seen the effects of personal power in the catastrophic results of French imperialism arising out of personal ambition. We, ourselves, are still recovering from the effects of the 20th Century dictatorships and War.
If you want to gain some clearer understanding of the broad sweep of history, you can do little better than to begin to read the work of Arnold Toynbee. But be warned: the study of history can seriously damage your self-esteem!
I can point to a number of events which allowed the UK to stand, alone, against the Third Reich. Most of them are the result of catastrophic mistakes by the German High Command, such as the failure to allow the Luftwaffe to destroy the retreating British Army at Dunkirk. But we can also see enormous mistakes by the British as well, such as the loss of Singapore to the Japanese through incompetence.
Most 'explanations' about the winning or losing of wars are simply justifications after the event. This is a particular form of logical error called post hoc ergo propter hoc, whereby one event is explained for no other reason than having happened after another.
Thanks alot, Simon. And to the rest of you who bothered to reply to my nonsense, just a dumb teen shooting out dumb things. Anyway while I was writing about Stalin being a great leader I did mention about his killings, if anyone likes I can always go find it in my history file stuck somewhere in school. I am not an immoral teen, I simply lack them. About the logical errors I shall ask my teacher in greater detail. Hopefully I will gain a better understanding of the study of the past.
Just try and be consistent with your posts. ie try and be a little more mature and please try and think about what you are about to post.
If you are looking for another medium as a study aid I would recommend Charlie Chapins " The Great Dictator". It still stands up today as a entertaining movie with a very clear and strong message.
Also "Downfall" is a interesting insight into the final days of Hilter and this hench men.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2005
* NOT MODERATING:*
Ajani, I suppose this applies to both you and Argon.aid:
The exams you take will require answers based solely, purely and simply on what you have learnt from your text books in school. Take the information given then, and work purely and simply on that.
You have the most wonderful resource literally at your fingertps: the Internet. There is a wealth of information there just waiting to be discovered. You can find out all you need to know there. There are many posts on this forum - on many subjects - which have internet links to provide you with information on that particular thread or subject.
And I will tell you both what has once been said to me, which I found good advice:
Use the amount of ears you have in proportion to the amount of mouth. That is, listen twice as much as you speak. Because while you speak, you can't be learning or listening!
In terms of posting on threads, then, "Listen"/(read) more than you "speak"/(type). You will learn and appreciate much more that way.
To have a young person saying things like 'anti-semitic crap' or 'no more making Churchill sound like the Saver of Europe when it's kind of obvious it was Stalin...' is ill-timed, tactless and to some, highly offensive and hurtful.
Many members of this forum are old enough to be your parents. They have experienced many things you have not. Cultural and Environmental differences aside, we can all learn from one another and contribute, but nothing makes up for the experience.
The third 'Step' on the Eightfold Path is 'Right Speech'.....
Thanks Federica....What would Buddha of thought about ASBO's ?
Had they been implemented with the Right Intention, I'm sure he would have approved.... Middle Way, Herman, I guess.
I'm always spouting on about the 'duality' of Life, ie; the fact that you have to deal with life on two planes: the "Human" Plane and the "Spiritual" Plane.
The first deals with all the day-to-day ordianry hum-drum stuff, like planning holidays, going to the dentist, buying the birthday gift - and dealing with the 'criminal' in the socially accepted and appropriate manner. He messed up, there are penalties. He stole, he'll repay the debt.
The second is that while all of the above takes place, we need the Eightfold Path as a constant reminder. (or the 'Rules & Reg's to which ever path or persuasion we belong to...! ) We need to act in a manner that is in keeping with the Things we Believe In. so when punishing the criminal, we deplore what he did, but rcognise that he is Human, and deserves compassion and care. At one point, he was a tiny baby in arms, and someone loved him. Then he slipped the rails? Why? Who knows? But he did, and for that, there is sorrow and compassion....
We try to correct people because we want to see them go straight and not make the same mistakes again. On Both Planes.
Thanks Federica....What would Buddha of thought about ASBO's ?
I don't know what the Shakyamuni would have said but I'm pretty sure that Jesus the Anointed would have had some harsh words about a system which penalises the poor and punishes them where no law applies.
This is interesting, there seems to be a difference in opinion over belief between christian and buddhist belief.
I think the Romans would of wished they had thought of it. But then again what have the Romans done for us?
I going to sit on the fence...
I don't know what the Shakyamuni would have said but I'm pretty sure that Jesus the Anointed would have had some harsh words about a system which penalises the poor and punishes them where no law applies.
I'm sure anyone would.... Is that what ASBO's are then? I thought it was a measure against behaviour which is deemed to be against public interest....? But what am I? I'm only a ghurl......:p
Herman...is that sarcasm.....? It is.....Isn't it? am I right? you being naughty again....? !?
ASBO, in this country, stands for Anti-Social Behaviour Order. The majority of them are applied to the young, disadvantaged:
Anti-social behaviour orders, usually known as asbos, were introduced in the 1998 Crime and Disorder Act and came into force in 1999. Asbos ban people from specific activities or from entering particular areas. They last a minimum of two years, but can be imposed for longer.
The 2002 Police Reform Act and the 2003 Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003 also contained measures on asbos.
Asbos can be served against children over 10 years of age or against adults if they have behaved "in an anti-social manner that caused or was likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress", and that the order is "necessary to protect persons from further anti-social acts".
This has allowed asbos to be used to ban activity that is not in itself criminal, such as begging, prostitution and even playing football or being sarcastic.
Most asbos are imposed after an application by a local authority or the police. Asbos are made by magistrates' courts after civil proceedings and may be made on the basis of hearsay evidence.
Breaching an asbo is a criminal offence, carrying a penalty of up to five years' imprisonment, even when the original offence was not an imprisonable one. Around half of all asbos have been served on children and young people, who can be given detention training orders lasting up to two years. Asbo facts and figures
More than 3,800 asbos have been imposed since they were first introduced in 1999 - half of them to children.
The use of asbos is increasing dramatically. Nearly 20 percent of the total number of asbos were imposed in the three months between July and September 2004, the last period for which figures have been released by the Home Office.
The proportion of people breaching their asbos has jumped from 36 percent at the end of December 2002 to 42 percent at the end of 2003.
Youth Justice Board figures show that nearly 50 young people were in custody for breaching an asbo in any month in 2004. That compares to an average of three young people a month between 2000 and 2002.
It is an extraordinary law which relies on civil proceedings, using hearsay evidence, imposing a sentence which, if breached, leads to prison without the original evidence being tested against the criminal court standard of being beyond reasonable doubt.
I don't think there would be any real disagreement between the Shakyamuni and Jesus. It is just that I know more of the many Jesus sayings about socially-responsible, compassionate behaviour towards others. Within the Buddhist notion of interbeing, the notion of "whatever is done to one of these little ones is done to me" neatly sums up my approach - and I am fundamentally opposed to the use of informers as sole evidence. It smacks of Terreur, the Third Reich and the gulag.
And Parliament has been presented with an Anti-Terrorism Bill which would allow the police to hold 'terror' suspects for 3 months (90 days!) without charge.
I believe that used to be quite a common activity not so long ago in South Africa.
Maybe they'll have a Biko Drum Band to help pass the time away.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2005
I feel a déjà-vu moment coming on....!!
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I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
Fede,
Whilst I know, from Net searches, that you are, in reality, Sister Masochista of the Order of the Holy Autoflagellants, I'm not sure what you think you got wrong.
Simon...
Whilst I understand your concern with regard to ASBO's, I am mindful of the amount of people that are threatened by young people to day. I wish to point out that many old people are afraid to leave theirt homes od an evening.
What the Goverment has attempted to do is provide some stiff measure against kids who out control.
I have a friend of might who challenge a group of lads because on arriving home one evening he noticed that the youth had dug a 8 metre trench opposite his house. They were using it to jump BMX bike across it.
He challenged them politely and asked them to move on. They simple told him where to get of called him a F****** C*** ect.
He went in a called the police or should I say the switch board. He new that he would have to wait a least an hour.
Time passed and the youths had contacted their friend by mobile and soon his house was under seige with kids throwing stones. This wife arrived home to find that war had broken out on the lawn.
The children again verbally abused this lady to a point where she was crying and felt physically threatened. I must point out they have children of their own. My friend became besieged with anger and frustration, he went outside, grabbed hold of the biggest youth and threatened him. Which was wrong. Never the less the youth in question told him to F*** off again and told him if lay a finger on him he would tell the police that he had just been abused in a improper manner.
The police arrived at this point. They questioned the children, then my friend. They took the youth home and arrested my friend who has never been arrested before and is a respectable member of his community.
The youth spent the summer running riot over the community and cause much distress to many people.
Eight weeks on the charges have been dropped against my friend. The youth has now had an ASBO served against him after a number of warnings.
Dare I say it the community sleeps peacefully now.
Sadly I can give a number of other examples of community improvement from ASBO's being served. I wish to point that an ASBO is a desperate last result and many police I now don't like them.
Personally I think the peace in our community is based on investment of time and resourses by all the agencies thus allowing the youth people to take ownership in a positive sense of their enviroment. Call old school but it's stick and carrot for me.
The youth in my story was 13 years off age, he came from an upper working class family.He is not socially disadvantaged probably has little status in his home .
Your story is all-too-common, H.H. There is something deeply wrong in society at the moment.
We can find historical parallels but the use of legislation has never solved the problem.
And there are a number of dangerous precedents in the ASBO legislation which are now established as legislative precedent which may return to bite us as we discuss anti-terror laws.
The recidivism rate must give us serious pause as well as the rate at which ASBOs are breached.
Having spent the last 20minutes posting a reply and losing it:mean: I will keep this short. Both the new anti-terroist measures and ASBO's will potentially and indeed I suspect have already been abused.
Simon, if these are scrapped what suggestions would you have to replace them? and would they be effective?.....the reason I ask, is often people shoot down new proposals as being immoral etc....but fail to have any solution of their own. I am not looking to be arguementative, indeed I too hold "Civil Liberty" very dear to my heart.
Having spent the last 20minutes posting a reply and losing it:mean: I will keep this short. Both the new anti-terroist measures and ASBO's will potentially and indeed I suspect have already been abused.
Simon, if these are scrapped what suggestions would you have to replace them? and would they be effective?.....the reason I ask, is often people shoot down new proposals as being immoral etc....but fail to have any solution of their own. I am not looking to be arguementative, indeed I too hold "Civil Liberty" very dear to my heart.
This is indeed the next question. The problem is that lack of an alternative does not justify keeping bad laws.
As the father of a son who had been the subject of a Supervision Order, I know that those work. Among his friends is one on an ASBO and another in a Youth Offenders' centre: yes: we live in a typical semi-rural community! Alternatives to ASBOs and prison, as well as trying to understand the causes and possible solutions occupies me much of my time.
Whilst I know, from Net searches, that you are, in reality, Sister Masochista of the Order of the Holy Autoflagellants, I'm not sure what you think you got wrong.
Because I thought ASBO's were "a good thing"... is there any research or data or statistics to show where and when they've been effective in their intention? They were surely devised with the intention of having positive results. I understand what you have to say about the negative aspect - but is there anyone or anything that might serve to redress the balance?
Ouch......ouch.......ouch.......ouch.....shucks, that feel good.....ouch......ouch.....ouch.....!:crazy:
Comments
I know some of the things that Ajani said have riled a few people. What we should remember though is that he is trying to make sense of what he is currently studying in school. Maybe this isn't the right place to be doing this and I know some of the more informed members of the forum have been trying to give him a more balanced view to that which he is currently being taught.
However, it must be a bit mind blowing for him to find that what he is being taught at school doesn't necessarily tie in with what we understand the events to be, and we should perhaps make allowances for this.
Maybe he does sometimes post things without thinking first (eg, the fox hunting comment in the vegan thread) but this can be seen as an opportunity to have a discussion rather than have a go at him. He is still young (strewth, how patronising does that sound?!) but some of the things he's come out with in other threads have been quite insightful.
Perhaps we should look at him as a Bodhisattva sent to teach us patience and tolerance!
P.S. I can't think of anyone that's a hero of mine
Abraham you are spot on, this thread was supposed to be about Heroes instead in has been hyjacked by stupid some kid who is having a laugh at our expense.
I think we should slap an ASBO on him or tell the Singapore Cops he has been a very bad boy who has been dropping chewing gum on the streets again.
Neither Hitler nor Stalin could be considered "heroes" in any accepted sense. Both presided over and sponsored the systematic murder of millions of their own citizens. Stalin managed to survive and there have never been any criminal trials following his regime as there were following those of Hitler and Hirohito, but he also managed to orchestrate even more deaths than Hitler.
If you want to look for heroes in the Third Reich, look at Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
The Great Helmsman, Mao, warned (ironically enough) against the "cult of personality" and the 20th Century will surely be remembered as the century of personality. Marx and Engels wrote about dialectical materialism and the force of history, having seen the effects of personal power in the catastrophic results of French imperialism arising out of personal ambition. We, ourselves, are still recovering from the effects of the 20th Century dictatorships and War.
If you want to gain some clearer understanding of the broad sweep of history, you can do little better than to begin to read the work of Arnold Toynbee. But be warned: the study of history can seriously damage your self-esteem!
I can point to a number of events which allowed the UK to stand, alone, against the Third Reich. Most of them are the result of catastrophic mistakes by the German High Command, such as the failure to allow the Luftwaffe to destroy the retreating British Army at Dunkirk. But we can also see enormous mistakes by the British as well, such as the loss of Singapore to the Japanese through incompetence.
Most 'explanations' about the winning or losing of wars are simply justifications after the event. This is a particular form of logical error called post hoc ergo propter hoc, whereby one event is explained for no other reason than having happened after another.
If you are looking for another medium as a study aid I would recommend Charlie Chapins " The Great Dictator". It still stands up today as a entertaining movie with a very clear and strong message.
Also "Downfall" is a interesting insight into the final days of Hilter and this hench men.
Ajani, I suppose this applies to both you and Argon.aid:
The exams you take will require answers based solely, purely and simply on what you have learnt from your text books in school. Take the information given then, and work purely and simply on that.
You have the most wonderful resource literally at your fingertps: the Internet. There is a wealth of information there just waiting to be discovered. You can find out all you need to know there. There are many posts on this forum - on many subjects - which have internet links to provide you with information on that particular thread or subject.
And I will tell you both what has once been said to me, which I found good advice:
Use the amount of ears you have in proportion to the amount of mouth. That is, listen twice as much as you speak. Because while you speak, you can't be learning or listening!
In terms of posting on threads, then, "Listen"/(read) more than you "speak"/(type). You will learn and appreciate much more that way.
To have a young person saying things like 'anti-semitic crap' or 'no more making Churchill sound like the Saver of Europe when it's kind of obvious it was Stalin...' is ill-timed, tactless and to some, highly offensive and hurtful.
Many members of this forum are old enough to be your parents. They have experienced many things you have not. Cultural and Environmental differences aside, we can all learn from one another and contribute, but nothing makes up for the experience.
The third 'Step' on the Eightfold Path is 'Right Speech'.....
You're my hero !!!
Had they been implemented with the Right Intention, I'm sure he would have approved.... Middle Way, Herman, I guess.
I'm always spouting on about the 'duality' of Life, ie; the fact that you have to deal with life on two planes: the "Human" Plane and the "Spiritual" Plane.
The first deals with all the day-to-day ordianry hum-drum stuff, like planning holidays, going to the dentist, buying the birthday gift - and dealing with the 'criminal' in the socially accepted and appropriate manner. He messed up, there are penalties. He stole, he'll repay the debt.
The second is that while all of the above takes place, we need the Eightfold Path as a constant reminder. (or the 'Rules & Reg's to which ever path or persuasion we belong to...!
We try to correct people because we want to see them go straight and not make the same mistakes again. On Both Planes.
I think the Romans would of wished they had thought of it. But then again what have the Romans done for us?
I going to sit on the fence...
I should of said "I'm going to sit on the fence"...
I'm sure anyone would.... Is that what ASBO's are then? I thought it was a measure against behaviour which is deemed to be against public interest....? But what am I? I'm only a ghurl......:p
Herman...is that sarcasm.....? It is.....Isn't it? am I right? you being naughty again....? !?
(Capital 'E' for English.....!!
It is an extraordinary law which relies on civil proceedings, using hearsay evidence, imposing a sentence which, if breached, leads to prison without the original evidence being tested against the criminal court standard of being beyond reasonable doubt.
I don't think there would be any real disagreement between the Shakyamuni and Jesus. It is just that I know more of the many Jesus sayings about socially-responsible, compassionate behaviour towards others. Within the Buddhist notion of interbeing, the notion of "whatever is done to one of these little ones is done to me" neatly sums up my approach - and I am fundamentally opposed to the use of informers as sole evidence. It smacks of Terreur, the Third Reich and the gulag.
That sounds really faci...I mean fantastic.
I'm glad I'm across the pond...
-bf
We march towards fascism!
I believe that used to be quite a common activity not so long ago in South Africa.
Maybe they'll have a Biko Drum Band to help pass the time away.
-bf
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
I WILL NOT POST WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST......!!
Fede,
Whilst I know, from Net searches, that you are, in reality, Sister Masochista of the Order of the Holy Autoflagellants, I'm not sure what you think you got wrong.
Whilst I understand your concern with regard to ASBO's, I am mindful of the amount of people that are threatened by young people to day. I wish to point out that many old people are afraid to leave theirt homes od an evening.
What the Goverment has attempted to do is provide some stiff measure against kids who out control.
I have a friend of might who challenge a group of lads because on arriving home one evening he noticed that the youth had dug a 8 metre trench opposite his house. They were using it to jump BMX bike across it.
He challenged them politely and asked them to move on. They simple told him where to get of called him a F****** C*** ect.
He went in a called the police or should I say the switch board. He new that he would have to wait a least an hour.
Time passed and the youths had contacted their friend by mobile and soon his house was under seige with kids throwing stones. This wife arrived home to find that war had broken out on the lawn.
The children again verbally abused this lady to a point where she was crying and felt physically threatened. I must point out they have children of their own. My friend became besieged with anger and frustration, he went outside, grabbed hold of the biggest youth and threatened him. Which was wrong. Never the less the youth in question told him to F*** off again and told him if lay a finger on him he would tell the police that he had just been abused in a improper manner.
The police arrived at this point. They questioned the children, then my friend. They took the youth home and arrested my friend who has never been arrested before and is a respectable member of his community.
The youth spent the summer running riot over the community and cause much distress to many people.
Eight weeks on the charges have been dropped against my friend. The youth has now had an ASBO served against him after a number of warnings.
Dare I say it the community sleeps peacefully now.
Sadly I can give a number of other examples of community improvement from ASBO's being served. I wish to point that an ASBO is a desperate last result and many police I now don't like them.
Personally I think the peace in our community is based on investment of time and resourses by all the agencies thus allowing the youth people to take ownership in a positive sense of their enviroment. Call old school but it's stick and carrot for me.
The youth in my story was 13 years off age, he came from an upper working class family.He is not socially disadvantaged probably has little status in his home .
We can find historical parallels but the use of legislation has never solved the problem.
And there are a number of dangerous precedents in the ASBO legislation which are now established as legislative precedent which may return to bite us as we discuss anti-terror laws.
The recidivism rate must give us serious pause as well as the rate at which ASBOs are breached.
Simon, if these are scrapped what suggestions would you have to replace them? and would they be effective?.....the reason I ask, is often people shoot down new proposals as being immoral etc....but fail to have any solution of their own. I am not looking to be arguementative, indeed I too hold "Civil Liberty" very dear to my heart.
This is indeed the next question. The problem is that lack of an alternative does not justify keeping bad laws.
As the father of a son who had been the subject of a Supervision Order, I know that those work. Among his friends is one on an ASBO and another in a Youth Offenders' centre: yes: we live in a typical semi-rural community! Alternatives to ASBOs and prison, as well as trying to understand the causes and possible solutions occupies me much of my time.
And still I have no answer.
Wise words.....No arguement from me..
Because I thought ASBO's were "a good thing"... is there any research or data or statistics to show where and when they've been effective in their intention? They were surely devised with the intention of having positive results. I understand what you have to say about the negative aspect - but is there anyone or anything that might serve to redress the balance?
Ouch......ouch.......ouch.......ouch.....shucks, that feel good.....ouch......ouch.....ouch.....!:crazy: