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Mysticism
Whoknows
Australia Veteran
Hi all,
I have noted some of lack of acceptance verging on aversion in otherwise quite accepting Buddhists for mysticism. Maybe it is related to our constant need for rationalisation and anything that apparently violates reason is considered ridiculous. Some writers when they want to dismiss something as not worthy of consideration form an association with the considered object and mysticism.
So my question is this: do you consider mysticism in Buddhism as something valid? Do you think that mystics, or more correctly those who are considered mystics, are discouraged from speaking their mind? Any other thoughts in relation to this?
Cheers, WK
I have noted some of lack of acceptance verging on aversion in otherwise quite accepting Buddhists for mysticism. Maybe it is related to our constant need for rationalisation and anything that apparently violates reason is considered ridiculous. Some writers when they want to dismiss something as not worthy of consideration form an association with the considered object and mysticism.
So my question is this: do you consider mysticism in Buddhism as something valid? Do you think that mystics, or more correctly those who are considered mystics, are discouraged from speaking their mind? Any other thoughts in relation to this?
Cheers, WK
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Comments
There are far too many examples of phenomena we don't understand. To dismiss them out of hand misses the point entirely. People sometimes do have knowledge that can't be explained by what we see. There are times when people have experienced something that is not comprehendible.
Openness to new ideas is not always the practice of scientists. If they can't see it, they don't believe it. Yet there are so many things they cannot see. Ignoring them is no better than explaining away a phenomenon based on ignorance and superstition. That is the thing I worry about with science.
" Suffering predisposes the mind to devoutness; and most young girls, prompted by instinctive tenderness, lean towards mysticism, the obscurer side of religion " .. Honoré De Balzac ( 19th Century French novelist )
those who do not believe in such things would think s/he has a mental disorder
if they would lucky enough to meet Buddha's Teaching and a good meditation teacher (I mean, Good and Genuine meditation teacher), they would know where to look into when they see things or hear things
if one looks into things outside they would go crazy
if they know how to look into inside they would be able to see the Reality and the Truth
without doubt these type of people are people lost in their journey because they are borne into wrong places where no one knows what is reality or no one knows there is a reality to be found
I like the way Simon put it "It is experience not explanation".
If I were to have an experience tonite wherein I was able to sit down with the Buddha and have a conversation with him I would not then tell others about it and expect to be greeted with anything other than skepticism. Why would I expect anything other than skepticism?
Would I really expect everyone to uncritically say "Really?!!!, how neat! Could I pay you to tell me what he said?"
Of course nobody would believe me, nor should they. If someone did believe me I would think them a very ripe target for con artists. An open mind is great, but a mind so open that it will accept whatever it likes uncritically is dangerous.
According to Buddhism, this accurately describes 99.99% of human beings.
Very true - the psychiatric definition of delusional is far narrower than the Buddhist understanding ... it can be seen that delusional thinking impairs an individuals ability to relate accurately to the world - sometimes delusional beliefs upset others far more than the one who holds them
And there are incidents where young people have much more knowledge than can be explained by science. I believe the Dalai Lama has met young people who he feels have been reincarnated and provides legitimacy to these kinds of claims. This from the Dalai Lama who is a staunch supporter of science. Anyone who believes the Dalai Lama does not keep his mind open when considering mysticism (for lack of a better word) doesn't truly know the man.
I think mystics should have their right to free speech as do others. That does not mean that what they say should be left unchallenged. But the assumption that mysticism = idiocy is false. I am not advocating undisciplined mixing of incompatible doctrines, but even this action, which is not right for me, could be valid for someone else. Each person needs to find their own way, and what right do we have to deny people their own personal path?
I like the quote in BA Wallace Choosing Reality (paraphrased): 'What we observe is nature exposed to our method of investigation' ....rather than a purely objective reality out there.
I think part of the problem is that mysticism is defined subconsciously in negative terms. It is used commonly used as a derogative term by modern day, unreflective realists.
Meditation leads to experience, the experience is a mystical experience. That doesn't destroy its validity.
I have not been taught aversion to mysticism, and do not hear in from others. It's just that conditions are conditions are conditions are....
An experience of Cosmic order ..... an experience of the subway on a Monday morning. Which is more holy? Any teacher who is legitimate will not waste time on mystical diversions. They are niether here nor there.
I don't know about you but I meditate with my eyes closed.
As Ajahn Sumedho might say "interesting, but not liberating".
The experience I am thinking of most will relate to as many of us have had it. It's the experience of being calmed, feeling serene, experience a sense of 'everything is OK' and seeing ourselves as being a very small part of the whole.
For me sitting on the edge of a body of water, particularly one I can't see across sometimes evokes this mystical experience. Some have reported similar experiences from being in the desert or other areas that are vast. Others have reported it occuring while listening to particular music.
I consider such experiences mystical in nature. I also consider them common to humans and I also consider them to have value although I don't think I can pin down what, specifically, the value is.
Mysticism is nothing more than experiences.
Mysticism in the truest sense of the word has a pretty solid place in Buddhism (and every other wisdom tradition). Buddhism has a set of very rational guidelines and philosophical tenets, but the experiences that practitioners have through the methods of Buddhist practice could easily be considered mysticism in that they are an "experience" of ones own nature, or the pursuit of some kind of spiritual "truth" or "nature".
what is Dibba-chakku (devine eye)?
what is Dibba-sota (devine ear)?
...something it is unskillful to dwell on, especially on a forum for new kids who would just loooove to get into something really extra-ordinary. The truth of suffering, the origin of suffering, and the ending of suffering are the matter at hand. Do highly devoloped "mystical" faculties serve that end? Do you know anyone who would benefit from dwelling on that? Would someone who developed them dwell on them?...... talk about them?
But the motivation for these powers is as a skillful means to liberate beings. It is rather like if you were a bodhisattva and you were in a culture of football (soccer) fanatics you might learn something about the sport so that you could appear attractive to others. So that you could teach them the dharma. Ahhh I can never think of examples there is a disconnect in my explanation. But the point is that the mystical abilities are developed in order to help beings.
From my level of practice I don't know whether that is true or not of course. If you have no 'mystic consiousness' then you don't have to worry about it. And if you do then you at first have to worry about whether you are simply insane!
who are the new kids?
just because someone is at younger age or new to a forum, can we say they are new to Buddha's Teaching?
whether we believe it or not, we have been tread this path before
and that is why we are here True i can not talk for others
in my case, i do not dwell on such things and do not advice anyone to dwell on them
Richard I am pretty novice practitioner and I aspire to even become a 'hearer' which is actually quite an accomplishment. I came in contact with this idea through study course on the jewel ornament of liberation. The 6 paramitas are part of the study of the bodhisatva and mystical powers were mentioned in the context of the 6 paramitas in JOL. Generosity, ethics, forbearance, joyous effort, concentration, and wisdom.
Anyone who can confirm what I say with the source would be appreciated (I have a bad memory when it comes to what came from where).
IMHO the scientist attempts to understand and describe the workings and wonders of the Universe while the mystic attempts to merge or unite with it.
From my personal experience, terminology, taxonomy and nomenclature are very often the cause of much confusion.
The terms "mystic" and "scientific rationalist" may well have a different meaning to me as they might have to others.
Hope my small contribution is of some benefit.
The greatest power that can be attained in most schools of mysticism is the ability to transform oneself.
The aquisition of minor powers is generally the province of, for want of a better term - Magic.
Magic and mysticism are different leaves or branches of the same tree.
Related but different.
Lao Tzu
Sounds good and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Fortune cookie philosophy.
Lao Tzu spoke these words. So by his own logic, he did not know. Hmmm. LOL
Then perhaps we should stop "making fun" of people who claim "I got enlightenment"?
They are by-products that arise during one’s practice and are illusory.
The Buddha also stated in the sutras that one must not become attached to supernatural powers. Such teachings were directed at those who were at the beginning stage of realizing their original nature and dharmakaya in order to protect them. If practitioners who are at the beginning stage of realizing the true nature or true-suchness of all phenomena become attached to supernatural powers, they will fall into that which is conditioned. They will then be practicing heresy.
Not exactly a fortune cookie philosophy but sort of a big deal......
Not a problem - just a misunderstanding....
Don't worry about the super powers, you won't be getting any on your road to enlightenment. Just focus on awakening.