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I think you are correct shenpen, but I have heard a lot of people complain about supernatural elements of buddhism and refer to it as mysticism. MatSalted for example.
I think you are correct shenpen, but I have heard a lot of people complain about supernatural elements of buddhism and refer to it as mysticism. MatSalted for example.
Hi Jeffrey,
Its similar to the way people conflate myth and fiction.
They are distinctly different concepts.
Yes, I also wondered how we got onto the topic of the supernormal. If there is a subconscious association of these two different topics then that could explain some of the reticence to talk about it.
What defines mysticism? A paradigm shift in current theories can change what is considered mystical to what is considered mundane. Paraphrasing Richard mentioned above, its purely a line in the sand that people have drawn and then gone ahead and poured concrete into it to harden it up.
I think the problem is with the word. It is tainted in the eyes of some.
An open minded buddhist could use what is useful, when it is useful, if beneficial. "What is useful" is left undefined. Trying to believe in something you don't believe in is a very good way of bringing ego to the fore, it will fight tooth and nail. Of course we can think of many reasons not to do this
I have noted some of lack of acceptance verging on aversion in otherwise quite accepting Buddhists for mysticism.
With some Buddhist attitudes, yes you are right. But there is a huge amount of mysticism in many schools of Buddhism.
Maybe it is related to our constant need for rationalisation and anything that apparently violates reason is considered ridiculous.
I'm not sure that mysticism violates reason per se, rather it violates explanation and the kind of methodology that rational minds need.
So my question is this: do you consider mysticism in Buddhism as something valid?
Personally, no I don't. for three key reasons (there are others, too, i think):
1) I don't see anything even close to evidence supporting any mystical hypothesis that doesn't have a rational explanation. Some stories of past like regression and near death experiences certainly are perplexing, but that doesn't mean there is a mystical/supernatural realm at all, at least to me.
2) I see dharma as an indubitable system of truth that spans from three irrefutable principles and, via interdependent causation, conditions all events, including human experience. So for me these is simply no place in dharma where "mystical" concepts can connect.
3) I think that the Buddha was actually proposing a radical anti-mytsical system when he taught the Middle Path. For me, this is the path between mysticism and nihilism.
Mysticism is niether here nor there in Dharmic terms. Conditions are conditions are conditions are......
I have not been taught aversion to mysticism, and do not hear in from others. It's just that conditions are conditions are conditions are....
An experience of Cosmic order ..... an experience of the subway on a Monday morning. Which is more holy? Any teacher who is legitimate will not waste time on mystical diversions. They are niether here nor there.
Waisting time like watching the sun rise and feel that thrill of living? The joy of hearing your child's first cry after they have been born? Looking to the night sky full of stars? These moments are what I consider mystical diversions. Richard, I don't know what you equate mysticism with, but I equate it to those moments in life where real joy is found.
Waisting time like watching the sun rise and feel that thrill of living? The joy of hearing your child's first cry after they have been born? Looking to the night sky full of stars? These moments are what I consider mystical diversions.
....Then consider me mystically diverted too, because we share the same joys and wonders. These are not makyo.
....Then consider me mystically diverted too, because we share the same joys and wonders. These are not makyo.
I'm not sure that I entirely agree, Richard. They are makyo but the mystic experiences (sees/hears/senses) beyond the appearance to the Truth and Beauty beyond simple water-drops in suspension in the air when the heart is moved by a sunset.
I'm not sure that I entirely agree, Richard. They are makyo but the mystic experiences (sees/hears/senses) beyond the appearance to the Truth and Beauty beyond simple water-drops in suspension in the air when the heart is moved by a sunset.
I have been taught "makyo" in the context of sitting practice. It occurs in that intermediate zone after concentration but before insight. The realm of psychic phenomena, of psychic fascination, it is a sidetrack. To say a sunset is makyo is to say it is illusion, saying the sunset is illusion implies a transcendent non-illusion. I adhered to that view but it did not stand up to practice or what I was taught. Maybe you mean something else.
Before Buddhist practice I was mystic, astral travel, lucid dreaming, perceiving different planes, a great chain of being.. along with what I perceived to be discarnate entities. On taking up Meditation practice I looked directly at these perceptions, and they vanished.
When I look directly at the sunset it doesn't vanish, when I don't project "depth" onto it, it just is.
This is just speaking from my own practice, but it is in accord with the teachers and sangha I know in both the Theravadin and Zen Traditions,
I have been taught "makyo" in the context of sitting practice. It occurs in that intermediate zone after concentration but before insight. The realm of psychic phenomena, of psychic fascination, it is a sidetrack. To say a sunset is makyo is to say it is illusion, saying the sunset is illusion implies a transcendent non-illusion. I adhered to that view but it did not stand up to practice or what I was taught. Maybe you mean something else.
Before Buddhist practice I was mystic, astral travel, lucid dreaming, perceiving different planes, a great chain of being.. along with what I perceived to be discarnate entities. On taking up Meditation practice I looked directly at these perceptions, and they vanished.
When I look directly at the sunset it doesn't vanish, when I don't project "depth" onto it, it just is.
This is just speaking from my own practice, but it is in accord with the teachers and sangha I know in both the Theravadin and Zen Traditions,
The mystic in me replies that the perception of the "is-ness" of the sunset is the whole point.
The mystic in me replies that the perception of the "is-ness" of the sunset is the whole point.
That is consistent with what you have posted before. Maybe it is just this word "Mystic" and the baggage it has or doesn't have depending on where we are from. Doing the practice opens faculties that are not generally acknowledged by the mainstream. The world space changes, there is a sense of non-locality, edgeless extension, and self-luminous "suchness" (an overused word IMO). Given that this is non-ordinary we are mystics by some definition. It is just that "Mystics" tend to exalt the worldspace, the "oneness", as a goal rather than the ending of suffering. It could be argued that this is the same thing, but I have found in my own experience that dukkha/non-dukkha, and clearly knowing both, is the most skillful compass we have. There is less chance of wandering down a psychic rabbit hole staying that course.
Does it in any way relate to the symbolism one experiences in the outside world as one progresses to tantra?
What I mean is...
I am constantly being surprised by the omens I experience in my day to day life. It could also be called synchronicity?
It used to happen when I was younger but now it happens everday.
One might be thinking of something... and the answer will present itself almost by magic. Also I am a artist and a writer and things from my stories have been appearing in my waking everday life.
I'm not going to go into all my crazy synchronicty stories... but it's like poetry on a cosmic level. Is that what Tantra is? I'm not sure. It's like your own personal Nirvana.
Also... the way all the animals pay homage to you could be considered mysticism? Constantly followed by ravens and have discovered the whole bird language and hierchy. It's quite beautiful... almost like all the animals are facets of a single diamond. This is akin so shammanism I think.... where the human serves as a prince of nature or as its guardian.
Anyway... I wonder how this "other" magic relates to Buddhism. It's like dancing with a dream. But you're awake in normal real life. How is it possible? How does the magic work?
WK: I have noted some of lack of acceptance verging on aversion in otherwise quite accepting Buddhists for mysticism.
S9: I believe that many people are drawn to Buddhism because they are suffering in one form or another. They want relief from this suffering and some answers that they can hold onto.
Mysticism may not actually be the best tool for beginners in religion, because it is a more advanced stage of development. Religion may serve as a foundation in this area. That is unless you are particularly suited and capable in this area, for whatever reasons, you will probably of need take this in baby steps.
Mysticism has a nasty little habit of throwing us all back (or is it foreward?) into the Unknown, and many interpret this as chaos (aka more suffering). If you see chaos (aka the Unknown) as the enemy, obviously you are going to fight against it in any way (you can get away with) and still continue to see yourself as open minded and being a good person.
When does being rational (a mental process) become merely a rationalization of believing what you wish to be true (a more emotional process), or become something that you simply find comfortable to hang onto?
Obviously, what we wish to believe will color (or even limit) what we are able to see and thereby take into account. Habitual thinking is a form of autohypnosis.
WK: Maybe it is related to our constant need for rationalization and anything that apparently violates reason is considered ridiculous.
S9: Yes, but does it violate reason or does it simply get in the way of us holding on to what we think we want? Erik Fromm wrote a good little book about how the average man has a ‘Fear of Freedom.’
How many of us actually see ‘Freedom’ as the same thing as being ‘left out there hanging?’ And how frightening is that, stepping off the cliff of Knowing into the Unknown. Let us remember that the Buddha warned us against this by saying that we must “Stop grasping?”
Buddha also warned us against identifying with our thoughts and concepts.
WK: Some writers when they want to dismiss something as not worthy of consideration form an association with the considered object and mysticism.
S9: Perhaps this is because they see leaving the rational (minds compact and easy answers) as being irrational and not as some mystics see it as extra-rational (aka you travel by use of the mind as far as it will take you, and when that road end or cannot continue you travel beyond the limited egoic mind.
WK: So my question is this: do you consider mysticism in Buddhism as something valid?
S9: Why not. There are many Buddhist Mystics. What exactly is Zen doing when it asks for answers to koans outside of the mind?
WK: Do you think that mystics, or more correctly those who are considered mystics, are discouraged from speaking their mind?
S9: You have to know your audience. If you find yourself speaking with a hard head, or a person who cannot travel beyond traditions or rules (both mental constructs), after a while you are bound to think, much like a sage once said through a little story, “This cup in too full to have room for something new,” and to merely walk on.
Mystic's find, I found, in studying all of the world's religions that the highest point of understanding in every single one of them in quite similar, if not identical. But this point is often missed because the multiple religions use different words to say this very same thing.
However once you have viewed the truth, which they are trying to point out, which you are able to see both directly and intimately, you can then easily see what they are all pointing at; the One Ultimate Truth. Ultimate Truth simply finds Itself dressed in many flavors/outfits (aka traditional word choices).
I said earlier that given the vagaries of nomenclature, the word "Mysticism" may not mean to all of you as it does to me.
To me, the meaning of the word is simply - Union with God.
(I only believe in God in months with an "r" in them )
All talk of "powers" is more correctly the province of magic. (Not that there's anything wrong with that )
I don't like "isms" or "ists" but under torture I would own up to being a mystic/spiritual alchemist/astronomer and the power to laugh at myself is my greatest power!
That, and a keen sense of observation.
Aum.
You are quite right in saying that the word “mystic” has become as ambiguous (unfortunately) as many other words, for instance the word “love.” Does “I love my wife and children” have the same meaning and connotations, as “I really love jelly donuts?” Well, perhaps for some. Grin!
However, when we begin to put certain words like “mystic” and “love” into context, and go on to explain our perspectives, very often we can begin to communicate with others across the vast gulf of opinion.
In this way we can either plant the seeds for further development or aid someone along his more individual path by sharing our own previous discoveries. This is of course like mud against the wall when speaking on a forum, in that only a small part of it will stick to the wall, and only then in those who are either ready to take the next step or of like mind and thereby somewhat receptive.
These steps forward in this area are not something we actually do. It is more like a fine word the Christians use, “Grace,” meaning it is given when the time is ripe.
In my understanding of Mysticism, the Mystic or the Sage, I quite agree with you that it goes beyond, or lies outside of, all of the “isms” and/or “ists,” because it is far too subjectively intimate to take on as a group.
Does it in any way relate to the symbolism one experiences in the outside world as one progresses to tantra?
Is that what Tantra is? I'm not sure. It's like your own personal Nirvana.
Hi Milk,
No. Tantra means continuity.
The idea being that through the lineage and master disciple relationship one is able to fully integrate into their own unborn, unabiding, unceasing, nature.
That nature is the ultimate truth, liberation, and buddhahood.
Rather than some magical external symbolism the authentic practice of tantra is a continuous and complete recognition and realization of who and what we really are.
In a sense the mention of tantra in this thread is appropriate.
If we are using it in the context of a "direct experience" of the nature of mind then we could certainly say that it is "mystical" in that it is based on an experience of the practitioner.
AB: If they can't see it, they don't believe it. Yet there are so many things they cannot see. Ignoring them is no better than explaining away a phenomenon based on ignorance and superstition. That is the thing I worry about with science.
S9: Science also has something that I consider a fault, built right into it. It won’t consider anything as being true unless it is repeatable, given the same circumstances.
I have to ask this. How many things or experiences only happen once in our lives or in this universe? Must we throw out anything that is unique, or even unusual?
Almost every great idea or invention has started in one man’s mind or imagination, and been laughed at by those persons around him. Was not the Buddha such a genius, and did he not lead us out of the wilderness of confusion?
When we narrow our thinking and investigations down to any great extent, are we not in danger of becoming "Narrow Minded?"
Quote by Simon:
“Mysticism does not explain anything. It's not its task any more than music explains itself. It is experience not explanation.”
S9: Wow, Simon. This is a great statement that bares repeating.
Through Mysticism, the experience of the mystical, we are traveling into our deeper more internal and intimate truth. Some have said that this truth existed b/4 the imaginations, concepts, and egoic universe most of us stumble around in daily. Because we have lost touch with this deep experience, many of us feel isolated and lost, which interprets itself into the many varieties of suffering.
If we ever hope to be free of this suffering that we have mistakenly taken on, we will (sooner or later) have to turn back and travel home.
I have a friend who like your self (it seems) is a collector of great and wise quotes. Whenever he shares one of these with me, it is as rich as a great meal and purely satisfying.
Quote:
Re: Simon: "We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."
S9: I wonder if you could take a moment out of your day, and explain to us just how arriving (again where we started) would be (as if?) to know the place for the first time?
Most of my own personal insights, although often surprising at the same time seemed familiar as well. Surprising only, (I believe), because my mind had been bent on finding one thing or another, or was under the impression that it knew my destination, and actually found something vastly superior.
Hitching mental illness with mysticism is a bit like hitching drowning with all water. Granted mentally ill persons may dabble in mysticism, but not all mystics are mentally ill, anymore than all swimmers will drown in their attempts.
Having worked at two careers during my life, each one for over a decade in the helping professions of both physical and mental health, I can tell you from some experience that the problems or even crisis in either of these areas is not so very terrible as one might first assume.
In fact, I have come to see both crisis and problems in this area as both an opportunity of sorts, as well as a great teacher. Now naturally one would not wish such things upon themselves, out of hand, but I can tell you that very often on looking back after passing through such a difficultly, very many persons will tell you that they actually gained more than they lost in life’s school. They will say that they gained both strength and insight, not to mention the priceless gift of compassion.
When we step outside of the cultural box of what is consider average or normal, naturally many of us become confused. Yet this may very well be a signpost of spiritual growth to come. Sure many are quick to label us irrational, and we in this state are overly suggestible to such labeling. But I personally do not think all of these experiences are the same and deserve derision.
Granted our thinking changes our chemistry and our mental chemistry changes our thinking…but so what. Just because it can be detected and can be measured as being unique, or even unusual, doesn’t give us any rights to think we can judge or even understand it. Very often much of the suffering we see in mental illness goes right back to these negative judgments.
So let us not be too quick to judge from the outside, what exactly is taking place, or what is to be gained in some unique fashion by someone else.
A little compassion can go a long way towards allowing our brothers and sisters to be their unique selves. After all genius is something unusual, which is often only accepted when it proves profitable to others. Why cannot genius be profitable exclusively to the individual?
Quote:
He, who knows, does not speak. He, who speaks, does not know.
Lao Tzu
S9: Don’t you think this means that the highest (Mystical Truths) cannot be put into words? (AKA cannot be spoken, but much of necessity be experienced)?
Hitching mental illness with mysticism is a bit like hitching drowning with all water. Granted mentally ill persons may dabble in mysticism, but not all mystics are mentally ill, anymore than all swimmers will drown in their attempts.
Having worked at two careers during my life, each one for over a decade in the helping professions of both physical and mental health, I can tell you from some experience that the problems or even crisis in either of these areas is not so very terrible as one might first assume.
In fact, I have come to see both crisis and problems in this area as both an opportunity of sorts, as well as a great teacher. Now naturally one would not wish such things upon themselves, out of hand, but I can tell you that very often on looking back after passing through such a difficultly, very many persons will tell you that they actually gained more than they lost in life’s school. They will say that they gained both strength and insight, not to mention the priceless gift of compassion.
When we step outside of the cultural box of what is consider average or normal, naturally many of us become confused. Yet this may very well be a signpost of spiritual growth to come. Sure many are quick to label us irrational, and we in this state are overly suggestible to such labeling. But I personally do not think all of these experiences are the same and deserve derision.
Granted our thinking changes our chemistry and our mental chemistry changes our thinking…but so what. Just because it can be detected and can be measured as being unique, or even unusual, doesn’t give us any rights to think we can judge or even understand it. Very often much of the suffering we see in mental illness goes right back to these negative judgments.
So let us not be too quick to judge from the outside, what exactly is taking place, or what is to be gained in some unique fashion by someone else.
A little compassion can go a long way towards allowing our brothers and sisters to be their unique selves. After all genius is something unusual, which is often only accepted when it proves profitable to others. Why cannot genius be profitable exclusively to the individual?
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Agree that many of the problems individuals who are experiencing mental illness have to deal with can be helped greatly by compassionate interactions with others.
Do not mean to " hitch mental illness with mysticism" in any causative or conditional sense -lol ... has it not been your observation that many who experience difficulty with mental illness, especially as a result of drug induced states describe mystical experiences which baffle and disturb them greatly and need to be overcome rather than exist as some enlightening experience ? ... this is certainly my understanding from my clinical work in the area, not my judgement from afar.
I have a friend who like your self (it seems) is a collector of great and wise quotes. Whenever he shares one of these with me, it is as rich as a great meal and purely satisfying.
Quote:
Re: Simon: "We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."
S9: I wonder if you could take a moment out of your day, and explain to us just how arriving (again where we started) would be (as if?) to know the place for the first time?
Most of my own personal insights, although often surprising at the same time seemed familiar as well. Surprising only, (I believe), because my mind had been bent on finding one thing or another, or was under the impression that it knew my destination, and actually found something vastly superior.
Peace and love,
S9
S9,
The poet William Carlos Williams once wrote: “It is difficult/to get the news from poems/yet men die miserably every day/for lack/of what is found there.”
("Asphodel, That Greeny Flower" by William Carlos Williams, 1955)
I can only share what the lines by Eliot mean to me. In the course of meditation, there arises (for me) a sense of familiarity, of "of course, I always knew this". It may be that this is what some modern mystics have referred to as "coming home". Perhaps it is like what happens when a persistent noise stops, a noise that has gone on for so long that we no longer notice it, and we become aware of a silence that we didn't even know we had been missing.
If you haven't yet come across Eliot's Four Quartets, I would be glad to email you the whole text. Personally, I carry it with me.
In pity, we have put ourselves in a somewhat superior position to another person, and we feel that we are more right (correct) about what they should be doing or thinking. We then reach out a helping hand to change them in some way into being more like our selves.
This judgment that they are in the wrong, or are mistaken in some fundamental way, may in fact only contribute to the other person feeling unaccepted and off balance, possibly insecure, even to their accepting our labels as to their being either mentally ill, or physically sick.
One of the greatest gifts that we can give to another person is to "allow them to be who they are," and to accept their unique understanding as simply one more way of looking at the world, a world (incidentally) that every single one of us is simply viewing (mentally) through the tiny porthole of our own subjectivity. In other words, there is no WORLD; there is only my perspective and your perspective, Da/da da/da.
Compassion shows up in our personal perspective, only when we make room for others, (don’t try to squeeze everyone into our own world as bit players), and realize that everyone is doing what they must, their own personal best…so far, given what has been handed to them (both genetically and circumstantially).
The only place we will ever all completely agree, is at our very internal root, which is beyond (previous to?) this dualistic world.
Enforced uniformity has always had a blow-back of endless fights, and even wars, because it is merely a concept that is unworkable. Where in nature can you find this sameness? All of survival calls for variety...in order to adapt, be flexible, and to grow.
What is often called mental illness is just one more face of the ubiquitous human suffering that comes out of what the Buddha called “Ignorance.” You can make a stab at blaming drugs or religion, but I personally see both of these as merely being attempts, after the fact, to self-medicate.
But then when you start the blame game, it is endless, and most everything becomes suspect, including the family.
Quote: And he said, "I tell you the truth. Unless you become like little children you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven".
S9: I see many of these types of quote more as metaphors that go beyond what they seemingly mean if taken literally. This is because in a poetic sense they are more like a pointing finger, pointing beyond the finger (words) them selves.
That is the magic of poetic device, and probably why the ancient Greeks said that, "Poetry was the language of the gods."
Children are thought, by many, to come at the world with a fresh, New Eyes. Having just arrived on this planet with a clean slate, (aka a tabula rasa). Children are also said, by many to be far less burdened with a build up of habitual thoughts and concepts that supposedly condemn their older family members, and cultures, to go forward repeating their old mistakes, again and again.
Anyone who has read an excellent little book about a group of children, left to their own devices, and how they go amuck in “The Lord of Flies,” might easily rethink this assumption.
Anyone who remembers how they lived in a lawless state, in good part, in the schoolyard (when out of sight from adult supervision) might question whether children are actually such little angels.
We won’t even get into talking at length about nasty little concepts like the “ID.”
I think the operative word must be “Little” children, or very young children. I think this quote was rather speaking of an “innocence,” (often attributed to very young children and animals) that is very quickly lost, and not actually an obedience to rules and laws (whether God's, state, or church) as so often added on to this assumption.
How you might then ask, do we regain such innocence? I think Buddhism would say by dis-identification with ignorance and confusion brought about by ego, and all of our egoic agendas.
Q: “Not freedom of the (egoic) self, but freedom from the self.”
Remember too, that Jesus said, “the Kingdom is within”…meaning already very much a part of us all at some very deep level, and not so much a surface thing found in the marketplace. Going further heaven (Original Nature) is right here and right now. This is our “Original Self” or “Buddha Nature” or what some have called the “Christ within" (not being the same thing as Jesus, the man, when said like this).
This depth (root) (the Rock that Paul built on) would not be separated from us by either space or time. In other words… Heaven, (Nirvana), our very Innocence, (aka freedom from ego definition) is not later. We swim in it. We simply “Wake Up” to it when the time is ripe.
The kingdom of heaven or what Buddha called "Waking Up" (aka Enlightenment) frees us from this prison of ignorance and suffering. Could we say that "freedom from suffering" is just another way of saying heaven (not really a place), but more of “an Experience?”
R: Or:
Quote: No one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again.
S9: I do not buy into the “Sky God,” (or the I/Thou relationship). The way that I see it is, it is more like dying to ignorance as said above. In dying to ignorance, we are born to truth, same/same.
Q: “The only sin is the concept of separation (aka duality).”
Is this (the concept of separation) not the very mother of all of our dualistic concepts,the very beginning of feeling lost in the dream worlds (mental constructs)? Is not healing, becoming whole once again (holy?), of just letting all of these confusions go, once and for all? Would we not then be “innocent” of sin?
Hope this answers your question and is helpful in some small way to you.
In pity, we have put ourselves in a somewhat superior position to another person, and we feel that we are more right (correct) about what they should be doing or thinking. We then reach out a helping hand to change them in some way into being more like our selves.
This judgment that they are in the wrong, or are mistaken in some fundamental way, may in fact only contribute to the other person feeling unaccepted and off balance, possibly insecure, even to their accepting our labels as to their being either mentally ill, or physically sick.
One of the greatest gifts that we can give to another person is to "allow them to be who they are," and to accept their unique understanding as simply one more way of looking at the world, a world (incidentally) that every single one of us is simply viewing (mentally) through the tiny porthole of our own subjectivity. In other words, there is no WORLD; there is only my perspective and your perspective, Da/da da/da.
Compassion shows up in our personal perspective, only when we make room for others, (don’t try to squeeze everyone into our own world as bit players), and realize that everyone is doing what they must, their own personal best…so far, given what has been handed to them (both genetically and circumstantially).
The only place we will ever all completely agree, is at our very internal root, which is beyond (previous to?) this dualistic world.
Enforced uniformity has always had a blow-back of endless fights, and even wars, because it is merely a concept that is unworkable. Where in nature can you find this sameness? All of survival calls for variety...in order to adapt, be flexible, and to grow.
What is often called mental illness is just one more face of the ubiquitous human suffering that comes out of what the Buddha called “Ignorance.” You can make a stab at blaming drugs or religion, but I personally see both of these as merely being attempts, after the fact, to self-medicate.
But then when you start the blame game, it is endless, and most everything becomes suspect, including the family.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Agree it is easy to confuse pity which comes from a superior ( usually imagined !! ) position and compassion.
" What is often called mental illness is just one more face of the ubiquitous human suffering that comes out of what the Buddha called “Ignorance.” You can make a stab at blaming drugs or religion, but I personally see both of these as merely being attempts, after the fact, to self-medicate "
Disagree that mental illness, or any illness, does not exist and that health professionals and medication do not have a role to play in being helpful to individuals who are experiencing these illnesses - medication often plays an important part in this for many people.
Agree that many individuals who have mental illness utilise drugs, such as marijuana regularly to try and deal with the unpleasant experiences that they regularly have to cope with - including altered perceptions of reality, auditory and visual hallucinations, anxiety and depressive symtoms - such as amotivation, apathy and suicidal thoughts.
This discussion is about mystical experiences and my comments were suggesting that drug induced mystical experiences generally are not the same in nature as spiritually induced ones - and the artificial nature of drugs have, often long term, side effects - enlightenment not being one of them - lol..
S: I can only share what the lines by Eliot mean to me. In the course of meditation, there arises (for me) a sense of familiarity, of "of course, I always knew this". It may be that this is what some modern mystics have referred to as "coming home". Perhaps it is like what happens when a persistent noise stops, a noise that has gone on for so long that we no longer notice it, and we become aware of a silence that we didn't even know we had been missing.
S9: Yes indeed, we can step back from this noise. Than again, at some point we come to realize that although this noise goes on, seemingly continuously, before us like a movie or a dream, we need not identify with it or be disturbed by it, while at the same time the movie continues automatically and unobstructed by the mistaken concept that we are the “doer” (Bhagavad Gita).
A: Disagree that mental illness, or any illness does not exist and that health professionals and medication do not have a role to play in being helpful to individuals who are experiencing these illnesses - medication often plays an important part in this for many people.
S9: I only hold that to the fact that everything will not, in the end, be cured by some little pink pill, or in a uniformity or lock step way of perceiving or living within this particular culture that we find ourselves born into.
Wasn’t it Gandhi that said that, “food is medicine?”
Don’t we receive endorphins by working out?
Aren’t serotonins released within us when we listening to music we enjoy.
My point being that it is not one size fits all, either in behavior or a possible return to balance.
Medicine is only now coming to a place where they practice in a way that is custom to the individual.
A: Agree that many individuals who have mental illness utilize drugs, such as marijuana regularly to try and deal with the unpleasant experiences that they regularly have to cope with - including altered perceptions of reality, auditory and visual hallucinations, anxiety and depressive symptoms - such as amotivation, apathy and suicidal thoughts.
S9: Grass is a wonderful teacher, even for the average man on the street. One of its greatest lessons to me was that I was running too fast in this world to stop or slow down and enjoy right were I was, or who I was in this given moment. Happiness need-not always be right around the corner, or just out of reach.
A tiny little rainbow found in a drop of water, kissed by the sun, can be satisfying in such a way as to stop you in your tracks and fill you up.
A: This discussion is about mystical experiences and my comments were suggesting that drug induced mystical experiences generally are not the same in nature as spiritually induced ones.
S9: I am saying that at some point everything is mystical, when seen with these “New Eyes.”
Obviously, I will agree with you in this way. Very many of the later mystical experiences that we Awaken to are far, more subtle than those we approach in the beginning. Perhaps at that later point our porthole on the universe becomes a picture window. Smile!
A: the artificial nature of drugs have, often long term, side effects - enlightenment not being one of them - lol.
S9: I hope that I haven’t given the impression that I believe that Enlightenment is a drug induced state. In fact I would go so far as to say that drugs are often outgrown at some point. I gave up grass without a whimper, it fell away, when my daily state of being had become superior to anything grass could arrive at. All drugs and medicines should only be temporary when possible.
A: Disagree that mental illness, or any illness does not exist and that health professionals and medication do not have a role to play in being helpful to individuals who are experiencing these illnesses - medication often plays an important part in this for many people.
" S9: I only hold that to the fact that everything will not, in the end, be cured by some little pink pill, or in a uniformity or lock step way of perceiving or living within this particular culture that we find ourselves born into. "
For sure ... though what gives our experiences meaning is the context we come to understand them through and loosing your context suddenly and completely is what often happens in mental illness.
" S9 : Wasn’t it Gandhi that said that, “food is medicine?” "
Yes, I think it was .... and I have seen those little pink pills make it possible for individuals to partake of that food again.
" S9 : Don’t we receive endorphins by working out?
Aren’t serotonins released within us when we listening to music we enjoy "
Likewise.
" S9 :My point being that it is not one size fits all, either in behavior or a possible return to balance.
Medicine is only now coming to a place where they practice in a way that is custom to the individual. "
Agree, and some of the newer anti-psychotics, the atypicals as they are referred to here, have more specific atrgetting abilities and less nasty side effects - still not wonderful things to have to take though :sadc:
" S9: I hope that I haven’t given the impression that I believe that Enlightenment is a drug induced state. In fact I would go so far as to say that drugs are often outgrown at some point. I gave up grass without a whimper, it fell away, when my daily state of being had become superior to anything grass could arrive at. All drugs and medicines should only be temporary when possible. "
Likewise I hope I haven't given the impression that I believed that you did !! Have enjoyed this discussion
I, too, have enjoyed our civilized little discussion on our difference with this subject.
A: For sure ... though what gives our experiences meaning is the context we come to understand them through and loosing your context suddenly and completely is what often happens in mental illness.
S9: Yes indeed, sudden changes in a paradigm, (map for living), by which we have been navigating our actions, and even our lives, can certainly be unsettling to the max. We may even feel like the floor has fallen away beneath our feet. (Actually this is not an unusual feeling at a later point within Mysticism. Great Insights can take some time to adjust to, even after many years of preparation.)
When this happens to us, and we feel a little like a caterpillar emerging into its new status as a butterfly. I imagine, also, that we may feel rightfully or wrongfully that we are fighting for our lives, our very sanity, or being overwhelmed with new and unidentified sensations. In fact, we may not always know, immediately, what to do with this new gift that has arrived at our door, (a little like a butterfly must wait for his/her wings to dry before s/he can fly.)
I can see, very easily how some very well meaning groups, like the psychologists, medical practitioners, or even religious leader, might be inclined to relieve our suffering by saying that we should simply turn around and crawl back into our previous little cave of security, and continue to be like our fellow caterpillars. But, I am also inclined to see this modality as simply dealing with the symptoms, and not any kind of cure.
In my way of seeing it, “Mysticism” is a progressive modality that says, “ENOUGH.”
“Isn’t it time to get to the root of this problem, once and for all?”
“ Isn’t it time to go beyond our band-aids, and actually find a final and satisfying ‘cure’ to our ubiquitous suffering?”
Sometimes, don’t you think, it is time to go fly?
Sometimes, we are progressing into a whole new “Way” of being. Just perhaps, we are simply not a caterpillar any longer.
Isn’t it possible that, a butterfly will never be able to fold his/her wings down small enough to fit into and be comfortable (ever again) within the old cave. Living too small will continue to pinch, unmercifully. In fact at some point I believe that it will demand that we move along.
Please don’t get me wrong.
I don’t see anything wrong in dealing directly to the symptoms in the short term, or temporarily, as often it can cushion us along the way.
If a man is hemorrhaging, then by all means stem the flow first. This will give you the time you may need to find the very source of the problem, eventually. But than too, don’t stop at the symptoms, again and again, and expect this problem to ever go away.
Both mental and physical health suffers a good deal of recidivism, after once having declared a cure by the professionals. : ^ (
Thanks again for our fine discussion. You are both kind and civilized in your manner.
When this happens to us, and we feel a little like a caterpillar emerging into its new status as a butterfly. I imagine, also, that we may feel rightfully or wrongfully that we are fighting for our lives, our very sanity, or being overwhelmed with new and unidentified sensations. In fact, we may not always know, immediately, what to do with this new gift that has arrived at our door, (a little like a butterfly must wait for his/her wings to dry before s/he can fly.)
I can see, very easily how some very well meaning groups, like the psychologists, medical practitioners, or even religious leader, might be inclined to relieve our suffering by saying that we should simply turn around and crawl back into our previous little cave of security, and continue to be like our fellow caterpillars. But, I am also inclined to see this modality as simply dealing with the symptoms, and not any kind of cure.
In my way of seeing it, “Mysticism” is a progressive modality that says, “ENOUGH.”
“Isn’t it time to get to the root of this problem, once and for all?”
“ Isn’t it time to go beyond our band-aids, and actually find a final and satisfying ‘cure’ to our ubiquitous suffering?”
Sometimes, don’t you think, it is time to go fly?
Sometimes, we are progressing into a whole new “Way” of being. Just perhaps, we are simply not a caterpillar any longer.
Isn’t it possible that, a butterfly will never be able to fold his/her wings down small enough to fit into and be comfortable (ever again) within the old cave. Living too small will continue to pinch, unmercifully. In fact at some point I believe that it will demand that we move along.
Please don’t get me wrong.
I don’t see anything wrong in dealing directly to the symptoms in the short term, or temporarily, as often it can cushion us along the way.
If a man is hemorrhaging, then by all means stem the flow first. This will give you the time you may need to find the very source of the problem, eventually. But than too, don’t stop at the symptoms, again and again, and expect this problem to ever go away.
Both mental and physical health suffers a good deal of recidivism, after once having declared a cure by the professionals. : ^ (
Thanks again for our fine discussion. You are both kind and civilized in your manner.
I just felt this last little bit needed saying.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
My concern is that it may be perceived that health " professionals " do not share similar understandings and understand similar goals and that mental health is not understood and therefore no help is available.
We would not tell someone who has diabetes and their pancreas does not produce any or enough insulin that Buddhist practice will cure the condition. Education and practising lifestyle changes including diet, exercise and reduction of stress and changed attitudes will benefit the individual whilst they live with the condition and may reduce the need for medication or even replacement insulin for some people and mental illness is the same.
We can explore mystical themes and symbolism of our experiences in psychotherapy to aid understanding and personally having had three years of individual and group therapy with a skilled and spirtual psychiatrist psychotherapist I can also reflect on how helpful this was.
A: We would not tell someone who has diabetes and their pancreas does not produce any or enough insulin that Buddhist practice will cure the condition.
S9: Obviously different tools/modalities help different problem. I wouldn’t deny someone with Type 1 Diabetes her/his insulin, any more than I would expect a good dose of insulin to get me enlightened. However, I also understand that starting someone that doesn’t need it on insulin may very well set up a vicious circle and make them thereafter dependent on insulin.
Too often in science, and the soft sciences, the professionals confuse hypothesis with fact and act like they are preaching the gospel of materialism (aka rationality).
It may very well be a good thing to introduce Buddhist meditation to a diabetic as a part of the treatment. Buddhism is a bit like a Swiss army knife, in that it is able to do good in many ways, and not simply in the final product of enlightenment. Relief of stress is certainly good for many illnesses.
A change of paradigm may be just what is needed to stop our addiction to poor living habits.
In fact, I have often said that I felt that Buddhism was the best and most reliable psychology presently available.
And:
There is a clinic in Massachusetts that is making great strides with chronic pain in individuals, where nothing else has brought relief.
So I guess what I am saying is that, there are multiple ways of bringing relief (often temporary), but there is only one “Ultimate Cure” for this earthly pain we all suffer…that being “Transcendence.”
At the same time, I would break the arm of anyone who tried to take away my herbs. Grin!
fyi- In "Mind at Ease" by Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche he describes the Mystic path as the path of self liberation (tib. rangdrol) and Sahajayana, the vehicle of co-emergence. Something that has its roots in the Mahasiddha's of India. In this context it is quite specific and refers to the Mahamudra Tradition.
Well Pietro, that would give a good movie script. Something like Sister Act, with dancing instead of singing and also zen monks instead of catholic nuns. It will be hard to replace Whoopy, though.
Actually, I would disagree with that - but it is only recently I have changed my mind on this.
I used to think that dharma was a logical structure that could in a sense prove the truth of eightfold path, using dependent origination, from the three marks of existence. My belief here always sat awkwardly with the remit in the Kalama Suttra to not go by "axiom" or "inference."
I now don't think it works like that, it isn't about certainty but clarity; there is no certainty.
This doesn't, at all, mean that Dharma is illogical, rather that logical conditions are not what drive its truth.
Actually, I would disagree with that - but it is only recently I have changed my mind on this.
I used to think that dharma was a logical structure that could in a sense prove the truth of eightfold path, using dependent origination, from the three marks of existence. My belief here always sat awkwardly with the remit in the Kalama Suttra to not go by "axiom" or "inference."
I now don't think it works like that, it isn't about certainty but clarity; there is no certainty.
This doesn't, at all, mean that Dharma is illogical, rather that logical conditions are not what drive its truth.
It twists my melon to think about this:/
namaste
I agree with you. I say it is logical in the sense that we don't have to accept contradictory statements just because the doctrine says so: that is deriving from axioms :P For example: An omnipotent god who is also perfectly benevolent is contradictory with hunger, wars, Auschwitz, etc.
I agree with you. I say it is logical in the sense that we don't have to accept contradictory statements just because the doctrine says so: that is deriving from axioms :P
Yes, I agree, which is one of the reasons why I don't accept as true that the Buddha taught that we are reborn...
For example: An omnipotent god who is also perfectly benevolent is contradictory with hunger, wars, Auschwitz, etc.
I see what you are saying, but dont think it is logically contradictory. One could say that "God works in mysterious ways" or its free will that is the problem etc.
A more typical "godly contradiction" would be the "could an omnicient being make a wall so high she couldn't climb it..." etc
A more typical "godly contradiction" would be the "could an omnicient being make a wall so high she couldn't climb it..."
That is not a contradiction. If he can do everything he can also defy logic. If he can't contradict logic than he can't do everything, so he would not be omnipotent in the first place. :P
That is not a contradiction. If he can do everything he can also defy logic. If he can't contradict logic than he can't do everything, so he would not be omnipotent in the first place. :P
I think the point of these kinds of paradoxes is to highlight that you cant have a reasonable belief in an omnipotent being, as you have just shown, rather than to "kill god" as it were:)
Yes, I agree, which is one of the reasons why I don't accept as true that the Buddha taught that we are reborn...
I see what you are saying, but dont think it is logically contradictory. One could say that "God works in mysterious ways" or its free will that is the problem etc.
A more typical "godly contradiction" would be the "could an omnicient being make a wall so high she couldn't climb it..." etc
namaste
Buddha did teach that we are reborn. The one who didn't teach that were the Carvakas. Samsara = uncontrolled/compulsive rebirth
@Nameless: Contradiction is contradiction, and I don't have any reason to think that something that is contradictory by its definition should have any ontological reality in effect (that's redundant, I know).
Something is contradictory by its terms? Then it has no existence. Buddha did use this kind of reasoning, and specially Nagarjuna.
My current view is that he was imploring us to escape the very ideaof an afterlife; attachment to that is delusionary and bound to create Dukka.
namaste
Nope, you are being over-interpretative. Buddha did deny that there was some kind of "afterlife" in the Christian sense, but he was very clear with the thing about rebirth. If there is no rebirth, then there is not so much logic behind the 12 link of dependent origination.
The attachment is to an Atman, specially to hypostatize the mere I as having a concrete svabhava... but the mental continuum does continue after this life.
Nope, you are being over-interpretative. Buddha did deny that there was some kind of "afterlife" in the Christian sense, but he was very clear with the thing about rebirth.
I disagree:)
If there is no rebirth, then there is not so much logic behind the 12 link of dependent origination.
I agree, I think there is no clear logic. I think the 12 Niddanyas have been mistakenly construed as being what DO is, which to my mind is not the case.
Dependent Origination, to me, is simply the many-to-many and isotropic causal relation of reality:
All causes have many effects.
All effects have many causes.
All causes are Effects.
All effects are causes.
I think the Twelve Niddanyas are either a later fabrication or not correctly passed on from the buddhas time. They just don't seem to fit with the four noble truths, whereas DO as I categorise it not only fits with them, but is essential to them.
I am very much in a minority with my views on this:)
but the mental continuum does continue after this life.
Comments
however, Buddha and some other Arahnts have had used them to bring the unawaken worldlings to the Path and Practice
for awakened ones it is not illusory because there is no more illusion for them
Its similar to the way people conflate myth and fiction.
They are distinctly different concepts.
What defines mysticism? A paradigm shift in current theories can change what is considered mystical to what is considered mundane. Paraphrasing Richard mentioned above, its purely a line in the sand that people have drawn and then gone ahead and poured concrete into it to harden it up.
I think the problem is with the word. It is tainted in the eyes of some.
An open minded buddhist could use what is useful, when it is useful, if beneficial. "What is useful" is left undefined. Trying to believe in something you don't believe in is a very good way of bringing ego to the fore, it will fight tooth and nail. Of course we can think of many reasons not to do this
Cheers, WK
With some Buddhist attitudes, yes you are right. But there is a huge amount of mysticism in many schools of Buddhism.
I'm not sure that mysticism violates reason per se, rather it violates explanation and the kind of methodology that rational minds need.
Personally, no I don't. for three key reasons (there are others, too, i think):
1) I don't see anything even close to evidence supporting any mystical hypothesis that doesn't have a rational explanation. Some stories of past like regression and near death experiences certainly are perplexing, but that doesn't mean there is a mystical/supernatural realm at all, at least to me.
2) I see dharma as an indubitable system of truth that spans from three irrefutable principles and, via interdependent causation, conditions all events, including human experience. So for me these is simply no place in dharma where "mystical" concepts can connect.
3) I think that the Buddha was actually proposing a radical anti-mytsical system when he taught the Middle Path. For me, this is the path between mysticism and nihilism.
namaste
Waisting time like watching the sun rise and feel that thrill of living? The joy of hearing your child's first cry after they have been born? Looking to the night sky full of stars? These moments are what I consider mystical diversions. Richard, I don't know what you equate mysticism with, but I equate it to those moments in life where real joy is found.
Cheers, WK
I'm not sure that I entirely agree, Richard. They are makyo but the mystic experiences (sees/hears/senses) beyond the appearance to the Truth and Beauty beyond simple water-drops in suspension in the air when the heart is moved by a sunset.
Before Buddhist practice I was mystic, astral travel, lucid dreaming, perceiving different planes, a great chain of being.. along with what I perceived to be discarnate entities. On taking up Meditation practice I looked directly at these perceptions, and they vanished.
When I look directly at the sunset it doesn't vanish, when I don't project "depth" onto it, it just is.
This is just speaking from my own practice, but it is in accord with the teachers and sangha I know in both the Theravadin and Zen Traditions,
The mystic in me replies that the perception of the "is-ness" of the sunset is the whole point.
Does it in any way relate to the symbolism one experiences in the outside world as one progresses to tantra?
What I mean is...
I am constantly being surprised by the omens I experience in my day to day life. It could also be called synchronicity?
It used to happen when I was younger but now it happens everday.
One might be thinking of something... and the answer will present itself almost by magic. Also I am a artist and a writer and things from my stories have been appearing in my waking everday life.
I'm not going to go into all my crazy synchronicty stories... but it's like poetry on a cosmic level. Is that what Tantra is? I'm not sure. It's like your own personal Nirvana.
Also... the way all the animals pay homage to you could be considered mysticism? Constantly followed by ravens and have discovered the whole bird language and hierchy. It's quite beautiful... almost like all the animals are facets of a single diamond. This is akin so shammanism I think.... where the human serves as a prince of nature or as its guardian.
Anyway... I wonder how this "other" magic relates to Buddhism. It's like dancing with a dream. But you're awake in normal real life. How is it possible? How does the magic work?
WK: I have noted some of lack of acceptance verging on aversion in otherwise quite accepting Buddhists for mysticism.
S9: I believe that many people are drawn to Buddhism because they are suffering in one form or another. They want relief from this suffering and some answers that they can hold onto.
Mysticism may not actually be the best tool for beginners in religion, because it is a more advanced stage of development. Religion may serve as a foundation in this area. That is unless you are particularly suited and capable in this area, for whatever reasons, you will probably of need take this in baby steps.
Mysticism has a nasty little habit of throwing us all back (or is it foreward?) into the Unknown, and many interpret this as chaos (aka more suffering). If you see chaos (aka the Unknown) as the enemy, obviously you are going to fight against it in any way (you can get away with) and still continue to see yourself as open minded and being a good person.
When does being rational (a mental process) become merely a rationalization of believing what you wish to be true (a more emotional process), or become something that you simply find comfortable to hang onto?
Obviously, what we wish to believe will color (or even limit) what we are able to see and thereby take into account. Habitual thinking is a form of autohypnosis.
WK: Maybe it is related to our constant need for rationalization and anything that apparently violates reason is considered ridiculous.
S9: Yes, but does it violate reason or does it simply get in the way of us holding on to what we think we want? Erik Fromm wrote a good little book about how the average man has a ‘Fear of Freedom.’
How many of us actually see ‘Freedom’ as the same thing as being ‘left out there hanging?’ And how frightening is that, stepping off the cliff of Knowing into the Unknown. Let us remember that the Buddha warned us against this by saying that we must “Stop grasping?”
Buddha also warned us against identifying with our thoughts and concepts.
WK: Some writers when they want to dismiss something as not worthy of consideration form an association with the considered object and mysticism.
S9: Perhaps this is because they see leaving the rational (minds compact and easy answers) as being irrational and not as some mystics see it as extra-rational (aka you travel by use of the mind as far as it will take you, and when that road end or cannot continue you travel beyond the limited egoic mind.
WK: So my question is this: do you consider mysticism in Buddhism as something valid?
S9: Why not. There are many Buddhist Mystics. What exactly is Zen doing when it asks for answers to koans outside of the mind?
WK: Do you think that mystics, or more correctly those who are considered mystics, are discouraged from speaking their mind?
S9: You have to know your audience. If you find yourself speaking with a hard head, or a person who cannot travel beyond traditions or rules (both mental constructs), after a while you are bound to think, much like a sage once said through a little story, “This cup in too full to have room for something new,” and to merely walk on.
Mystic's find, I found, in studying all of the world's religions that the highest point of understanding in every single one of them in quite similar, if not identical. But this point is often missed because the multiple religions use different words to say this very same thing.
However once you have viewed the truth, which they are trying to point out, which you are able to see both directly and intimately, you can then easily see what they are all pointing at; the One Ultimate Truth. Ultimate Truth simply finds Itself dressed in many flavors/outfits (aka traditional word choices).
Not to see this is a word bias.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
To me, the meaning of the word is simply - Union with God.
(I only believe in God in months with an "r" in them
All talk of "powers" is more correctly the province of magic. (Not that there's anything wrong with that
I don't like "isms" or "ists" but under torture I would own up to being a mystic/spiritual alchemist/astronomer and the power to laugh at myself is my greatest power!
That, and a keen sense of observation.
Aum.
You are quite right in saying that the word “mystic” has become as ambiguous (unfortunately) as many other words, for instance the word “love.” Does “I love my wife and children” have the same meaning and connotations, as “I really love jelly donuts?” Well, perhaps for some. Grin!
However, when we begin to put certain words like “mystic” and “love” into context, and go on to explain our perspectives, very often we can begin to communicate with others across the vast gulf of opinion.
In this way we can either plant the seeds for further development or aid someone along his more individual path by sharing our own previous discoveries. This is of course like mud against the wall when speaking on a forum, in that only a small part of it will stick to the wall, and only then in those who are either ready to take the next step or of like mind and thereby somewhat receptive.
These steps forward in this area are not something we actually do. It is more like a fine word the Christians use, “Grace,” meaning it is given when the time is ripe.
In my understanding of Mysticism, the Mystic or the Sage, I quite agree with you that it goes beyond, or lies outside of, all of the “isms” and/or “ists,” because it is far too subjectively intimate to take on as a group.
Peace and love,
S9
No. Tantra means continuity.
The idea being that through the lineage and master disciple relationship one is able to fully integrate into their own unborn, unabiding, unceasing, nature.
That nature is the ultimate truth, liberation, and buddhahood.
Rather than some magical external symbolism the authentic practice of tantra is a continuous and complete recognition and realization of who and what we really are.
In a sense the mention of tantra in this thread is appropriate.
If we are using it in the context of a "direct experience" of the nature of mind then we could certainly say that it is "mystical" in that it is based on an experience of the practitioner.
AB: If they can't see it, they don't believe it. Yet there are so many things they cannot see. Ignoring them is no better than explaining away a phenomenon based on ignorance and superstition. That is the thing I worry about with science.
S9: Science also has something that I consider a fault, built right into it. It won’t consider anything as being true unless it is repeatable, given the same circumstances.
I have to ask this. How many things or experiences only happen once in our lives or in this universe? Must we throw out anything that is unique, or even unusual?
Almost every great idea or invention has started in one man’s mind or imagination, and been laughed at by those persons around him. Was not the Buddha such a genius, and did he not lead us out of the wilderness of confusion?
When we narrow our thinking and investigations down to any great extent, are we not in danger of becoming "Narrow Minded?"
As you can see I agree with you. Smile!
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Quote by Simon:
“Mysticism does not explain anything. It's not its task any more than music explains itself. It is experience not explanation.”
S9: Wow, Simon. This is a great statement that bares repeating.
Through Mysticism, the experience of the mystical, we are traveling into our deeper more internal and intimate truth. Some have said that this truth existed b/4 the imaginations, concepts, and egoic universe most of us stumble around in daily. Because we have lost touch with this deep experience, many of us feel isolated and lost, which interprets itself into the many varieties of suffering.
If we ever hope to be free of this suffering that we have mistakenly taken on, we will (sooner or later) have to turn back and travel home.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."
I have a friend who like your self (it seems) is a collector of great and wise quotes. Whenever he shares one of these with me, it is as rich as a great meal and purely satisfying.
Quote:
Re: Simon: "We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."
S9: I wonder if you could take a moment out of your day, and explain to us just how arriving (again where we started) would be (as if?) to know the place for the first time?
Most of my own personal insights, although often surprising at the same time seemed familiar as well. Surprising only, (I believe), because my mind had been bent on finding one thing or another, or was under the impression that it knew my destination, and actually found something vastly superior.
Peace and love,
S9
Hitching mental illness with mysticism is a bit like hitching drowning with all water. Granted mentally ill persons may dabble in mysticism, but not all mystics are mentally ill, anymore than all swimmers will drown in their attempts.
Having worked at two careers during my life, each one for over a decade in the helping professions of both physical and mental health, I can tell you from some experience that the problems or even crisis in either of these areas is not so very terrible as one might first assume.
In fact, I have come to see both crisis and problems in this area as both an opportunity of sorts, as well as a great teacher. Now naturally one would not wish such things upon themselves, out of hand, but I can tell you that very often on looking back after passing through such a difficultly, very many persons will tell you that they actually gained more than they lost in life’s school. They will say that they gained both strength and insight, not to mention the priceless gift of compassion.
When we step outside of the cultural box of what is consider average or normal, naturally many of us become confused. Yet this may very well be a signpost of spiritual growth to come. Sure many are quick to label us irrational, and we in this state are overly suggestible to such labeling. But I personally do not think all of these experiences are the same and deserve derision.
Granted our thinking changes our chemistry and our mental chemistry changes our thinking…but so what. Just because it can be detected and can be measured as being unique, or even unusual, doesn’t give us any rights to think we can judge or even understand it. Very often much of the suffering we see in mental illness goes right back to these negative judgments.
So let us not be too quick to judge from the outside, what exactly is taking place, or what is to be gained in some unique fashion by someone else.
A little compassion can go a long way towards allowing our brothers and sisters to be their unique selves. After all genius is something unusual, which is often only accepted when it proves profitable to others. Why cannot genius be profitable exclusively to the individual?
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
He, who knows, does not speak. He, who speaks, does not know.
Lao Tzu
S9: Don’t you think this means that the highest (Mystical Truths) cannot be put into words? (AKA cannot be spoken, but much of necessity be experienced)?
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Agree that many of the problems individuals who are experiencing mental illness have to deal with can be helped greatly by compassionate interactions with others.
Do not mean to " hitch mental illness with mysticism" in any causative or conditional sense -lol ... has it not been your observation that many who experience difficulty with mental illness, especially as a result of drug induced states describe mystical experiences which baffle and disturb them greatly and need to be overcome rather than exist as some enlightening experience ? ... this is certainly my understanding from my clinical work in the area, not my judgement from afar.
S9,
The poet William Carlos Williams once wrote: “It is difficult/to get the news from poems/yet men die miserably every day/for lack/of what is found there.”
("Asphodel, That Greeny Flower" by William Carlos Williams, 1955)
I can only share what the lines by Eliot mean to me. In the course of meditation, there arises (for me) a sense of familiarity, of "of course, I always knew this". It may be that this is what some modern mystics have referred to as "coming home". Perhaps it is like what happens when a persistent noise stops, a noise that has gone on for so long that we no longer notice it, and we become aware of a silence that we didn't even know we had been missing.
If you haven't yet come across Eliot's Four Quartets, I would be glad to email you the whole text. Personally, I carry it with me.
Very often people confuse compassion with pity.
In pity, we have put ourselves in a somewhat superior position to another person, and we feel that we are more right (correct) about what they should be doing or thinking. We then reach out a helping hand to change them in some way into being more like our selves.
This judgment that they are in the wrong, or are mistaken in some fundamental way, may in fact only contribute to the other person feeling unaccepted and off balance, possibly insecure, even to their accepting our labels as to their being either mentally ill, or physically sick.
One of the greatest gifts that we can give to another person is to "allow them to be who they are," and to accept their unique understanding as simply one more way of looking at the world, a world (incidentally) that every single one of us is simply viewing (mentally) through the tiny porthole of our own subjectivity. In other words, there is no WORLD; there is only my perspective and your perspective, Da/da da/da.
Compassion shows up in our personal perspective, only when we make room for others, (don’t try to squeeze everyone into our own world as bit players), and realize that everyone is doing what they must, their own personal best…so far, given what has been handed to them (both genetically and circumstantially).
The only place we will ever all completely agree, is at our very internal root, which is beyond (previous to?) this dualistic world.
Enforced uniformity has always had a blow-back of endless fights, and even wars, because it is merely a concept that is unworkable. Where in nature can you find this sameness? All of survival calls for variety...in order to adapt, be flexible, and to grow.
What is often called mental illness is just one more face of the ubiquitous human suffering that comes out of what the Buddha called “Ignorance.” You can make a stab at blaming drugs or religion, but I personally see both of these as merely being attempts, after the fact, to self-medicate.
But then when you start the blame game, it is endless, and most everything becomes suspect, including the family.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
R: How's this?
Quote: And he said, "I tell you the truth. Unless you become like little children you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven".
S9: I see many of these types of quote more as metaphors that go beyond what they seemingly mean if taken literally. This is because in a poetic sense they are more like a pointing finger, pointing beyond the finger (words) them selves.
That is the magic of poetic device, and probably why the ancient Greeks said that, "Poetry was the language of the gods."
Children are thought, by many, to come at the world with a fresh, New Eyes. Having just arrived on this planet with a clean slate, (aka a tabula rasa). Children are also said, by many to be far less burdened with a build up of habitual thoughts and concepts that supposedly condemn their older family members, and cultures, to go forward repeating their old mistakes, again and again.
Anyone who has read an excellent little book about a group of children, left to their own devices, and how they go amuck in “The Lord of Flies,” might easily rethink this assumption.
Anyone who remembers how they lived in a lawless state, in good part, in the schoolyard (when out of sight from adult supervision) might question whether children are actually such little angels.
We won’t even get into talking at length about nasty little concepts like the “ID.”
I think the operative word must be “Little” children, or very young children. I think this quote was rather speaking of an “innocence,” (often attributed to very young children and animals) that is very quickly lost, and not actually an obedience to rules and laws (whether God's, state, or church) as so often added on to this assumption.
How you might then ask, do we regain such innocence? I think Buddhism would say by dis-identification with ignorance and confusion brought about by ego, and all of our egoic agendas.
Q: “Not freedom of the (egoic) self, but freedom from the self.”
Remember too, that Jesus said, “the Kingdom is within”…meaning already very much a part of us all at some very deep level, and not so much a surface thing found in the marketplace. Going further heaven (Original Nature) is right here and right now. This is our “Original Self” or “Buddha Nature” or what some have called the “Christ within" (not being the same thing as Jesus, the man, when said like this).
This depth (root) (the Rock that Paul built on) would not be separated from us by either space or time. In other words… Heaven, (Nirvana), our very Innocence, (aka freedom from ego definition) is not later. We swim in it. We simply “Wake Up” to it when the time is ripe.
The kingdom of heaven or what Buddha called "Waking Up" (aka Enlightenment) frees us from this prison of ignorance and suffering. Could we say that "freedom from suffering" is just another way of saying heaven (not really a place), but more of “an Experience?”
R: Or:
Quote: No one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again.
S9: I do not buy into the “Sky God,” (or the I/Thou relationship). The way that I see it is, it is more like dying to ignorance as said above. In dying to ignorance, we are born to truth, same/same.
Q: “The only sin is the concept of separation (aka duality).”
Is this (the concept of separation) not the very mother of all of our dualistic concepts,the very beginning of feeling lost in the dream worlds (mental constructs)? Is not healing, becoming whole once again (holy?), of just letting all of these confusions go, once and for all? Would we not then be “innocent” of sin?
Hope this answers your question and is helpful in some small way to you.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Agree it is easy to confuse pity which comes from a superior ( usually imagined !! ) position and compassion.
" What is often called mental illness is just one more face of the ubiquitous human suffering that comes out of what the Buddha called “Ignorance.” You can make a stab at blaming drugs or religion, but I personally see both of these as merely being attempts, after the fact, to self-medicate "
Disagree that mental illness, or any illness, does not exist and that health professionals and medication do not have a role to play in being helpful to individuals who are experiencing these illnesses - medication often plays an important part in this for many people.
Agree that many individuals who have mental illness utilise drugs, such as marijuana regularly to try and deal with the unpleasant experiences that they regularly have to cope with - including altered perceptions of reality, auditory and visual hallucinations, anxiety and depressive symtoms - such as amotivation, apathy and suicidal thoughts.
This discussion is about mystical experiences and my comments were suggesting that drug induced mystical experiences generally are not the same in nature as spiritually induced ones - and the artificial nature of drugs have, often long term, side effects - enlightenment not being one of them - lol..
S: I can only share what the lines by Eliot mean to me. In the course of meditation, there arises (for me) a sense of familiarity, of "of course, I always knew this". It may be that this is what some modern mystics have referred to as "coming home". Perhaps it is like what happens when a persistent noise stops, a noise that has gone on for so long that we no longer notice it, and we become aware of a silence that we didn't even know we had been missing.
S9: Yes indeed, we can step back from this noise. Than again, at some point we come to realize that although this noise goes on, seemingly continuously, before us like a movie or a dream, we need not identify with it or be disturbed by it, while at the same time the movie continues automatically and unobstructed by the mistaken concept that we are the “doer” (Bhagavad Gita).
This hands-off approach is often called Wu Wei.
It leaves us free and “Awake” within the dream.
BTW: I am presently checking out Eliot, thanks.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
A: Disagree that mental illness, or any illness does not exist and that health professionals and medication do not have a role to play in being helpful to individuals who are experiencing these illnesses - medication often plays an important part in this for many people.
S9: I only hold that to the fact that everything will not, in the end, be cured by some little pink pill, or in a uniformity or lock step way of perceiving or living within this particular culture that we find ourselves born into.
Wasn’t it Gandhi that said that, “food is medicine?”
Don’t we receive endorphins by working out?
Aren’t serotonins released within us when we listening to music we enjoy.
My point being that it is not one size fits all, either in behavior or a possible return to balance.
Medicine is only now coming to a place where they practice in a way that is custom to the individual.
A: Agree that many individuals who have mental illness utilize drugs, such as marijuana regularly to try and deal with the unpleasant experiences that they regularly have to cope with - including altered perceptions of reality, auditory and visual hallucinations, anxiety and depressive symptoms - such as amotivation, apathy and suicidal thoughts.
S9: Grass is a wonderful teacher, even for the average man on the street. One of its greatest lessons to me was that I was running too fast in this world to stop or slow down and enjoy right were I was, or who I was in this given moment. Happiness need-not always be right around the corner, or just out of reach.
A tiny little rainbow found in a drop of water, kissed by the sun, can be satisfying in such a way as to stop you in your tracks and fill you up.
A: This discussion is about mystical experiences and my comments were suggesting that drug induced mystical experiences generally are not the same in nature as spiritually induced ones.
S9: I am saying that at some point everything is mystical, when seen with these “New Eyes.”
Obviously, I will agree with you in this way. Very many of the later mystical experiences that we Awaken to are far, more subtle than those we approach in the beginning. Perhaps at that later point our porthole on the universe becomes a picture window. Smile!
A: the artificial nature of drugs have, often long term, side effects - enlightenment not being one of them - lol.
S9: I hope that I haven’t given the impression that I believe that Enlightenment is a drug induced state. In fact I would go so far as to say that drugs are often outgrown at some point. I gave up grass without a whimper, it fell away, when my daily state of being had become superior to anything grass could arrive at. All drugs and medicines should only be temporary when possible.
The side effect of life is death. Grin!
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
I, too, have enjoyed our civilized little discussion on our difference with this subject.
A: For sure ... though what gives our experiences meaning is the context we come to understand them through and loosing your context suddenly and completely is what often happens in mental illness.
S9: Yes indeed, sudden changes in a paradigm, (map for living), by which we have been navigating our actions, and even our lives, can certainly be unsettling to the max. We may even feel like the floor has fallen away beneath our feet. (Actually this is not an unusual feeling at a later point within Mysticism. Great Insights can take some time to adjust to, even after many years of preparation.)
When this happens to us, and we feel a little like a caterpillar emerging into its new status as a butterfly. I imagine, also, that we may feel rightfully or wrongfully that we are fighting for our lives, our very sanity, or being overwhelmed with new and unidentified sensations. In fact, we may not always know, immediately, what to do with this new gift that has arrived at our door, (a little like a butterfly must wait for his/her wings to dry before s/he can fly.)
I can see, very easily how some very well meaning groups, like the psychologists, medical practitioners, or even religious leader, might be inclined to relieve our suffering by saying that we should simply turn around and crawl back into our previous little cave of security, and continue to be like our fellow caterpillars. But, I am also inclined to see this modality as simply dealing with the symptoms, and not any kind of cure.
In my way of seeing it, “Mysticism” is a progressive modality that says, “ENOUGH.”
“Isn’t it time to get to the root of this problem, once and for all?”
“ Isn’t it time to go beyond our band-aids, and actually find a final and satisfying ‘cure’ to our ubiquitous suffering?”
Sometimes, don’t you think, it is time to go fly?
Sometimes, we are progressing into a whole new “Way” of being. Just perhaps, we are simply not a caterpillar any longer.
Isn’t it possible that, a butterfly will never be able to fold his/her wings down small enough to fit into and be comfortable (ever again) within the old cave. Living too small will continue to pinch, unmercifully. In fact at some point I believe that it will demand that we move along.
Please don’t get me wrong.
I don’t see anything wrong in dealing directly to the symptoms in the short term, or temporarily, as often it can cushion us along the way.
If a man is hemorrhaging, then by all means stem the flow first. This will give you the time you may need to find the very source of the problem, eventually. But than too, don’t stop at the symptoms, again and again, and expect this problem to ever go away.
Both mental and physical health suffers a good deal of recidivism, after once having declared a cure by the professionals. : ^ (
Thanks again for our fine discussion. You are both kind and civilized in your manner.
I just felt this last little bit needed saying.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
My concern is that it may be perceived that health " professionals " do not share similar understandings and understand similar goals and that mental health is not understood and therefore no help is available.
We would not tell someone who has diabetes and their pancreas does not produce any or enough insulin that Buddhist practice will cure the condition. Education and practising lifestyle changes including diet, exercise and reduction of stress and changed attitudes will benefit the individual whilst they live with the condition and may reduce the need for medication or even replacement insulin for some people and mental illness is the same.
We can explore mystical themes and symbolism of our experiences in psychotherapy to aid understanding and personally having had three years of individual and group therapy with a skilled and spirtual psychiatrist psychotherapist I can also reflect on how helpful this was.
A: We would not tell someone who has diabetes and their pancreas does not produce any or enough insulin that Buddhist practice will cure the condition.
S9: Obviously different tools/modalities help different problem. I wouldn’t deny someone with Type 1 Diabetes her/his insulin, any more than I would expect a good dose of insulin to get me enlightened. However, I also understand that starting someone that doesn’t need it on insulin may very well set up a vicious circle and make them thereafter dependent on insulin.
Too often in science, and the soft sciences, the professionals confuse hypothesis with fact and act like they are preaching the gospel of materialism (aka rationality).
It may very well be a good thing to introduce Buddhist meditation to a diabetic as a part of the treatment. Buddhism is a bit like a Swiss army knife, in that it is able to do good in many ways, and not simply in the final product of enlightenment. Relief of stress is certainly good for many illnesses.
A change of paradigm may be just what is needed to stop our addiction to poor living habits.
In fact, I have often said that I felt that Buddhism was the best and most reliable psychology presently available.
And:
There is a clinic in Massachusetts that is making great strides with chronic pain in individuals, where nothing else has brought relief.
So I guess what I am saying is that, there are multiple ways of bringing relief (often temporary), but there is only one “Ultimate Cure” for this earthly pain we all suffer…that being “Transcendence.”
At the same time, I would break the arm of anyone who tried to take away my herbs. Grin!
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Cheers, WK
I guess it's the same with Dharma; some of us have naturalistic beliefs and some of us have supernaturalistic beliefs.
Mysticism is clearly a supernaturalistic belief, as are superpowers and miracles.
This distinction may be useful here.
namaste
Well Pietro, that would give a good movie script. Something like Sister Act, with dancing instead of singing and also zen monks instead of catholic nuns. It will be hard to replace Whoopy, though.
Actually, I would disagree with that - but it is only recently I have changed my mind on this.
I used to think that dharma was a logical structure that could in a sense prove the truth of eightfold path, using dependent origination, from the three marks of existence. My belief here always sat awkwardly with the remit in the Kalama Suttra to not go by "axiom" or "inference."
I now don't think it works like that, it isn't about certainty but clarity; there is no certainty.
This doesn't, at all, mean that Dharma is illogical, rather that logical conditions are not what drive its truth.
It twists my melon to think about this:/
namaste
Yes, I agree, which is one of the reasons why I don't accept as true that the Buddha taught that we are reborn...
I see what you are saying, but dont think it is logically contradictory. One could say that "God works in mysterious ways" or its free will that is the problem etc.
A more typical "godly contradiction" would be the "could an omnicient being make a wall so high she couldn't climb it..." etc
namaste
That is not a contradiction. If he can do everything he can also defy logic. If he can't contradict logic than he can't do everything, so he would not be omnipotent in the first place. :P
I think the point of these kinds of paradoxes is to highlight that you cant have a reasonable belief in an omnipotent being, as you have just shown, rather than to "kill god" as it were:)
namaste
Buddha did teach that we are reborn. The one who didn't teach that were the Carvakas. Samsara = uncontrolled/compulsive rebirth
@Nameless: Contradiction is contradiction, and I don't have any reason to think that something that is contradictory by its definition should have any ontological reality in effect (that's redundant, I know).
Something is contradictory by its terms? Then it has no existence. Buddha did use this kind of reasoning, and specially Nagarjuna.
My current view is that he was imploring us to escape the very ideaof an afterlife; attachment to that is delusionary and bound to create Dukka.
namaste
The attachment is to an Atman, specially to hypostatize the mere I as having a concrete svabhava... but the mental continuum does continue after this life.
I disagree:)
I agree, I think there is no clear logic. I think the 12 Niddanyas have been mistakenly construed as being what DO is, which to my mind is not the case.
Dependent Origination, to me, is simply the many-to-many and isotropic causal relation of reality:
All causes have many effects.
All effects have many causes.
All causes are Effects.
All effects are causes.
I think the Twelve Niddanyas are either a later fabrication or not correctly passed on from the buddhas time. They just don't seem to fit with the four noble truths, whereas DO as I categorise it not only fits with them, but is essential to them.
I am very much in a minority with my views on this:)
I have no reason to believe that is the case:)
namaste