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Shenpen, thank you again. That makes it completely clear to me. Particularly the benefit of preparing for the experience of dying.
The commentaries on the practice get quite interesting on this point.
There are correlations between ones acumen with dream yoga and the experiences in the bardo.
Its pretty fascinating.
I'm an avid astral traveler. I can will myself to do it almost anytime I want... I catch myself before falling to sleep and I'm out. It's taken me 15 years to get to this level. It wasn't easy and took more than a little effort.
Now though that I've satiated my curiosity I see that there isn't any practical use for it. Maybe long-distance healing would work but I don't have any patients that need that kind of work yet. I'm not even a teacher yet.
Maybe it is just for fun. And it can be fun flying over your favorite utopia.
I mean... it is OK to have fun in this Universe. Go places. Discover new things. It's what started my journey...
"Have fun! Just don't go too far little one. I'll be here waiting!" I remember her saying. I did wander too far once and was sorry I did. But I'm glad I took the journey so I could discover that the journey need not be taken at all.
I don't wander too far anymore from Mama Dee. (mama dharma)
White light. I have always sat with eyes open. Casting my gaze down without focusing has frequently resulted in an opaque white light. Once practice resulted in an enveloping white light, an awareness of disolution of identity, a sense of belonging to the light and uncontrollable weeping. Never happened again - never attributed definitive meaning to the experience. It prompted me to discontinue sitting for a long time. Don't know why - fear of either experiencing it again or never experiencing it again - just don't know. Definitely not a goal in my practice - but a very odd experience. Lucid dreaming, dreams of flying, visits with deceased relatives - yes, some success through relaxation, auto-suggestion, even meditation - but could never decide what to do with the dream state to be...I don't know, productive or....."relevant" - so it was abandoned. Thanks here to Zayl for the great suggestion of using the dream state for practice and to Richard for reminding about irrelevance, which I am, that I am, unanimously!
In order for these practices to be relevant requires a lot of preliminary practice etc. so you would be absolutely correct is saying that in most cases dream practices are irrelevant
Are you talking about the specific practices you mentioned or just dream practice (whatever that means) in general?
preliminary practice
As in meditation practice in general or specific teachings from accomplished lamas, etc?
Are you talking about the specific practices you mentioned or just dream practice (whatever that means) in general?
As in meditation practice in general or specific teachings from accomplished lamas, etc?
Both, the practice of dream yoga is a part of highest yoga tantra or ati yoga (Dzogchen). Tibetan Buddhism takes a very structured and systematic approach to the students development. Usually one goes through the preliminary practices of ngondro or some kind of equivalent before seriously embarking on any kind of highest yoga tantra or Dzogchen practice. And a certain amount of acumen in those is then required for any kind of beneficial use of the dream state.
So legitimate and relevant dream yoga practice usually comes after many years of study and practice with a authentic teacher.
for those who are moving towards liberation though, won't be attached on white light or astral projection... we are not even supposed to fixate on dharma in the ultimate end... in the end all attachments/fixations are to be discarded.... whatever arises, it doesn't matter...just remain in equanamity.
for those who are moving towards liberation though, won't be attached on white light or astral projection... we are not even supposed to fixate on dharma in the ultimate end... in the end all attachments/fixations are to be discarded.... whatever arises, it doesn't matter...just remain in equanamity.
White light. I have always sat with eyes open. Casting my gaze down without focusing has frequently resulted in an opaque white light. Once practice resulted in an enveloping white light, an awareness of disolution of identity, a sense of belonging to the light and uncontrollable weeping. Never happened again - never attributed definitive meaning to the experience. It prompted me to discontinue sitting for a long time. Don't know why - fear of either experiencing it again or never experiencing it again - just don't know. Definitely not a goal in my practice - but a very odd experience. Lucid dreaming, dreams of flying, visits with deceased relatives - yes, some success through relaxation, auto-suggestion, even meditation - but could never decide what to do with the dream state to be...I don't know, productive or....."relevant" - so it was abandoned. Thanks here to Zayl for the great suggestion of using the dream state for practice and to Richard for reminding about irrelevance, which I am, that I am, unanimously!
just a experience, an episode, should continue sitting... best with teacher's guide... meditators have all kind of experiences, but if you just continue without being excited or depressed, clinging with hope or fear then they'd go away... realisation of truth is not a light, sight, or sense phenonomenon, it is beyond expectations and fear, it doesn't change or go away. All those sense phenomenons are just part of your skandha tricks, if you fall for them, at best, they delay you, at worst, you stop there for the whole of this life... if it is negative in nature, even worse possible consequences...
This is exactly why practices like dream yoga are restricted to those who already have some level of understanding and accomplishment.
Hi Shenpen Nangwa, in genuine dream yoga, one is supposed to have seen through the illusion of the dream... not regard the dream as real and perpetuate it... if one perpetuate it, at least it should be with a recognition of its nature. But from what i see, most astral travellers believe in what they experience completely... no amount of convincing can help.
Also, in daily life, they still have their fair share of delusions, still not addressed. This is spiritual corruption. There is no real spiritual development, just playing around with sense perceptions/special effects. Milarepa, a great saint, said, if you press your eyeballs, you will see double light or something like that... meaning, don't trust sense perceptions/special effects... even if it is mental sense perception. Still is a fixation.
If don't believe, just give those who play with such things 20-30 years, they would realise they have really gotten no-where with the toys.
If astral planes within the bardos are irrelevant, then where does the "self" go when liberated? And what is the process the self takes to become liberated?
De_void,
You got a very good question... i feel that you are thorough kind of seeker that's why you are not accepting so easily but trying to understand first.
The "self" never existed in the first place... according to mind-only school, it is said that our 7th consciousness mistakenly took the 8th consciousness (or alaya or what people nowadays call "Beingness'/'God'/Cosmic consciousness/Higher self etc) to be a self. And this sense of self perpetuated itself with the help of karmic habitual tendencies... with me, my or mine and with further aversion and desire...
So it is a fundamental myth. Or fundamental 'perceptual' mistake... a kind of hypnosis we fell under. Awareness /mindfulness in the pracctice of insight brings us to the point where we can see through this hypnotic conditioning... once we see through it and totally eradicate all the gravitational pull of the conditioning (ie habit of falling back into believing in the self) then liberation is at hand. Actually, there is no liberation really, because 'self' was never there. But because we don't know, that's why we are not awakened like the Buddha.
There is also the realisation of 'emptiness' of all phenomenon... but i think it's better to leave it out of this discussion to avoid complicating things.
Honestly, I really don't see the difference between being conscious in the daytime vs being conscious in the nighttime. Obviously we are taught to practice mindfulness during the day and it is relevant to do that. But, to practice mindfulness at nighttime is now irrelevant simply because it is nighttime? What is the difference?
Honestly, I really don't see the difference between being conscious in the daytime vs being conscious in the nighttime. Obviously we are taught to practice mindfulness during the day and it is relevant to do that. But, to practice mindfulness at nighttime is now irrelevant simply because it is nighttime? What is the difference?
I dont really think there is a difference.
The only thing I can think of is that when we get some kind of accomplishment through controlling our dreams etc. its easy for us to fixate on that and think we are special. Its also easy for people to start giving too much emphasis to it.
The danger is that it can stop being authentic practice and become an ego trip or another attachment.
Hi Shenpen Nangwa, in genuine dream yoga, one is supposed to have seen through the illusion of the dream... not regard the dream as real and perpetuate it... if one perpetuate it, at least it should be with a recognition of its nature. But from what i see, most astral travellers believe in what they experience completely... no amount of convincing can help.
This reiterates my point about the esoteric nature of the dream yoga teachings.
Without the proper foundation and understanding the experiences in the dream state can become obstacles rather than useful.
Honestly, I really don't see the difference between being conscious in the daytime vs being conscious in the nighttime. Obviously we are taught to practice mindfulness during the day and it is relevant to do that. But, to practice mindfulness at nighttime is now irrelevant simply because it is nighttime? What is the difference?
i don't think they are mindful when they astral project... mindfulness in sleep is highly recommended... if you can stay in the timeless awareness during sleep then by all means do it... why astral project? for one who is highly accomplished in timeless awareness, there are no more dreams in sleep.
may have to reexamine what you mean by mindfulness.
p/s: there is the term 'clear light' but it should not be confused with light as in sense phenomenon light (or light you get from the bulb/candle flame)... it refers to clarity aspect of ultimate wisdom which is beyond all extremes including form / formlessness.
i don't think they are mindful when they astral project... mindfulness in sleep is highly recommended... if you can stay in the timeless awareness during sleep then by all means do it... why astral project? for one who is highly accomplished in timeless awareness, there are no more dreams in sleep.
I was mostly referring to lucid dreams rather than astral projection. Even though the OP is about astral projection, so I could be going a bit off topic. I would agree that there is no need to astral project unless you are looking for some kind of special experience, which is not the point of practice. However, it is quite difficult to not have dreams because they just happen. But to me "Lucid dream" simply means "awareness of the fact that what you are experiencing is a nighttime dream" which does not necessarily mean controlling it or manipulating it. Some people, most people maybe, think that lucid dreaming = control of dreaming for one purpose or another, but the term simply means "aware" and not necessarily something more, at least to me.
may have to reexamine what you mean by mindfulness.
In this context essentially, a simple awareness or consciousness of what you are experiencing and giving that your full attention, at whatever moment, whether it is during the day or night while sleeping or whatever. As opposed to the complete unconsciousness that most people have when they have a dream.
Comments
hands palms together.
Right back at ya.
The commentaries on the practice get quite interesting on this point.
There are correlations between ones acumen with dream yoga and the experiences in the bardo.
Its pretty fascinating.
Now though that I've satiated my curiosity I see that there isn't any practical use for it. Maybe long-distance healing would work but I don't have any patients that need that kind of work yet. I'm not even a teacher yet.
Maybe it is just for fun. And it can be fun flying over your favorite utopia.
I mean... it is OK to have fun in this Universe. Go places. Discover new things. It's what started my journey...
"Have fun! Just don't go too far little one. I'll be here waiting!" I remember her saying. I did wander too far once and was sorry I did. But I'm glad I took the journey so I could discover that the journey need not be taken at all.
I don't wander too far anymore from Mama Dee. (mama dharma)
Are you talking about the specific practices you mentioned or just dream practice (whatever that means) in general?
As in meditation practice in general or specific teachings from accomplished lamas, etc?
So legitimate and relevant dream yoga practice usually comes after many years of study and practice with a authentic teacher.
If you are attached to this life, you are not a person of Dharma
If you are attached to cyclic existence, you do not have renunciation
If you are attached to your own purpose, you do not have bodhicitta, the thought of enlightenment
If grasping fixation arises, you do not have the view
Founder of the Sakya School, Sachen Kunga Nyingpo
This is exactly why practices like dream yoga are restricted to those who already have some level of understanding and accomplishment.
just a experience, an episode, should continue sitting... best with teacher's guide... meditators have all kind of experiences, but if you just continue without being excited or depressed, clinging with hope or fear then they'd go away... realisation of truth is not a light, sight, or sense phenonomenon, it is beyond expectations and fear, it doesn't change or go away. All those sense phenomenons are just part of your skandha tricks, if you fall for them, at best, they delay you, at worst, you stop there for the whole of this life... if it is negative in nature, even worse possible consequences...
Hi Shenpen Nangwa, in genuine dream yoga, one is supposed to have seen through the illusion of the dream... not regard the dream as real and perpetuate it... if one perpetuate it, at least it should be with a recognition of its nature. But from what i see, most astral travellers believe in what they experience completely... no amount of convincing can help.
Also, in daily life, they still have their fair share of delusions, still not addressed. This is spiritual corruption. There is no real spiritual development, just playing around with sense perceptions/special effects. Milarepa, a great saint, said, if you press your eyeballs, you will see double light or something like that... meaning, don't trust sense perceptions/special effects... even if it is mental sense perception. Still is a fixation.
If don't believe, just give those who play with such things 20-30 years, they would realise they have really gotten no-where with the toys.
De_void,
You got a very good question... i feel that you are thorough kind of seeker that's why you are not accepting so easily but trying to understand first.
The "self" never existed in the first place... according to mind-only school, it is said that our 7th consciousness mistakenly took the 8th consciousness (or alaya or what people nowadays call "Beingness'/'God'/Cosmic consciousness/Higher self etc) to be a self. And this sense of self perpetuated itself with the help of karmic habitual tendencies... with me, my or mine and with further aversion and desire...
So it is a fundamental myth. Or fundamental 'perceptual' mistake... a kind of hypnosis we fell under. Awareness /mindfulness in the pracctice of insight brings us to the point where we can see through this hypnotic conditioning... once we see through it and totally eradicate all the gravitational pull of the conditioning (ie habit of falling back into believing in the self) then liberation is at hand. Actually, there is no liberation really, because 'self' was never there. But because we don't know, that's why we are not awakened like the Buddha.
There is also the realisation of 'emptiness' of all phenomenon... but i think it's better to leave it out of this discussion to avoid complicating things.
The only thing I can think of is that when we get some kind of accomplishment through controlling our dreams etc. its easy for us to fixate on that and think we are special. Its also easy for people to start giving too much emphasis to it.
The danger is that it can stop being authentic practice and become an ego trip or another attachment.
Without the proper foundation and understanding the experiences in the dream state can become obstacles rather than useful.
i don't think they are mindful when they astral project... mindfulness in sleep is highly recommended... if you can stay in the timeless awareness during sleep then by all means do it... why astral project? for one who is highly accomplished in timeless awareness, there are no more dreams in sleep.
may have to reexamine what you mean by mindfulness.
p/s: there is the term 'clear light' but it should not be confused with light as in sense phenomenon light (or light you get from the bulb/candle flame)... it refers to clarity aspect of ultimate wisdom which is beyond all extremes including form / formlessness.
I was mostly referring to lucid dreams rather than astral projection. Even though the OP is about astral projection, so I could be going a bit off topic. I would agree that there is no need to astral project unless you are looking for some kind of special experience, which is not the point of practice. However, it is quite difficult to not have dreams because they just happen. But to me "Lucid dream" simply means "awareness of the fact that what you are experiencing is a nighttime dream" which does not necessarily mean controlling it or manipulating it. Some people, most people maybe, think that lucid dreaming = control of dreaming for one purpose or another, but the term simply means "aware" and not necessarily something more, at least to me.
In this context essentially, a simple awareness or consciousness of what you are experiencing and giving that your full attention, at whatever moment, whether it is during the day or night while sleeping or whatever. As opposed to the complete unconsciousness that most people have when they have a dream.