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How exactly do you contribute to society ?
Justify your existence to me.
Yes thats right.
I have asked this particular question on many religious and philosophical sites and am usually intrigued with the results.
How do your actions/inactions (duality again !) make this beautiful world a better place ?
Is it your job to make the world a better place anyway ? Or is it Michael Jacksons ?
Now I'm not talking about you having a wonderful thought about an autumn leaf or you reaching a transendental level of medititive state. I'm asking just what do you do to help ?
It is my totally unsubstanciated reasoning that most of you bimble about ,waffling on about buddha whilst feeling smug with your new insight into why you didnt really need an ipod , but as long as youve got one, you can always download the dhali s new audiobook anyway.
The sheer luxury of religion let alone one of internet access is an interesting phenomenom in itself.
That is all.
Yes thats right.
I have asked this particular question on many religious and philosophical sites and am usually intrigued with the results.
How do your actions/inactions (duality again !) make this beautiful world a better place ?
Is it your job to make the world a better place anyway ? Or is it Michael Jacksons ?
Now I'm not talking about you having a wonderful thought about an autumn leaf or you reaching a transendental level of medititive state. I'm asking just what do you do to help ?
It is my totally unsubstanciated reasoning that most of you bimble about ,waffling on about buddha whilst feeling smug with your new insight into why you didnt really need an ipod , but as long as youve got one, you can always download the dhali s new audiobook anyway.
The sheer luxury of religion let alone one of internet access is an interesting phenomenom in itself.
That is all.
0
Comments
I'll let you know when I find it, but I'm still looking. The fact that I'm looking is productive.
BTW.....Who or what is 'dhali'...?
I disagree with your assertion that your existence is justification for your existence. The fact you 'are looking' is nothing but an insular path whilst offering others nothing .
As a member of earth, your own spiritual journey is of little consequence to others.
Should the world wait for your enlightenment before you can offfer something in return for the resources you use ?
I don't know why I'm here. I don't know why my mind is here at this particular moment in time.
I don't believe there is a "right to existance" it happened because of circumstances outside my control.
But, since I am a member of this place in time, my actions or reactions will have reactions of their own that may do nothing or reverberate throughout time or whatever "else" there is besides this existance.
I am not required to do anything nor justify my existance. It happened outside my control and "these are the cards I've been dealt".
It isn't my job to do anything. In fact, I can do whatever I want. Althought it must be realized that for an action - there is a reaction. Very negative reactions.
I also don't believe it is my "duty" to help anyone. If there is any "duty" it would be to myself.
But, Buddha's teachings indicate that by having "right" aspects of your life you can bring love and compassion to others and further yourself along the path of awakening.
Metaphorically speaking, we reap what we sow. One way or the other.
-bf
I have never said this before, but having practised Feng Shui, Shiatsu and taught Qi Gong, I have a collection of letters, postcards and notelets from various clients and students affirming that the connexion they had with me changed their life for the better. Not to nourish my own Ego...If they disappeared in a fire, so bloody what? but to remind me that the chain reaction of making others feel happy, is worthwhile.
However, this poem is enough to cut anyone down to size......
"One day when you are feeling important,
One day when your ego is in bloom,
One day when you have the feeling
You're the most important man in the room,
Take a bucket and fill it with water,
Put your arm in up to the wrist,
Pull it out and the hole that is left there,
Will be the measure of how much you'll be missed. "
However, is happiness the only nourishment others need ?
It would appear buddhism is a path on which only a privaliged few can travel. But how could it be any other way.
I get the feeling that you like to create a stir, I am not convinced that you are really all that interested in the actual answers!...however I will indulge you.
Justify my existence to you?...........NO
Bimble about and Waffling on......You do like to make sweeping statements don't you?...how many posts have you read on this forum?
There is nothing wrong with being controversial or even a little in your face..... depends on the person's motivation in being this way. At this moment in time I am highly suspicious of your Motives......sounds to me like you are taking the P*SS!!:rarr:
Why wont you justify your existence to me ?
I am afraid the subtlety of my humour doesnt always translate well.
Maybe you should concentrate more on putting them out, rather than trying to start them.....;)
Why wont you justify your existence to me ?
Why has the phrase SPONTANEOUS COMBUSTION suddenly come to mind? I guess you will have to be satisfied that Life for you is going to represent a lot of questions and no answers....:tongue2:
As for why I won't justify my exsistence to you? Why should I?
HELP ? Help has very very little to do with life and enlightenment, even if most have no idea of it...
Comment ça va? Dites-moi, comment the heck connaissez-vous un British Fictitious personalité comme Catweasle?
Bienvenue (Wilkomen, Welcome, Benvenuto!)
Nothing "I" do makes the world a better place, nor does it make it any worse. "I" have no job of making it any such way either. There is no "I" to help or harm anyone. There is only a collection of mental and physical aggregates that have arisen due to available conditions, and will cease when those available conditions are no more. My only duty to myself, and to the world is to understand the Truth (Dhamma) while these aggregates last. There is no justification, and there certainly isn't "anyone" to justify it to. As with all conditioned things, "we" follow the same three characteristics of existence:
All things are ultimately unsatisfactory (dukkha).
All things are impermanent (anicca).
All things are not-self (anatta).
Such thinking is only the illusion of the anusaya (underlying tendencies/obsessions):
(1) The obsession of sensual passion.
(2) The obsession of resistance.
(3) The obsession of views.
(4) The obsession of uncertainty.
(5) The obsession of conceit.
(6) The obsession of passion for becoming.
(7) The obsession of ignorance.
This aggregate named "Jason".
To be honest, there truly are no answers to the questions you are asking. The Buddha never concerned himself with the how's and why's, and he never taught the how's and why's. There was only one thing that was important to him - the complete and utter cessatioin of dukkha. That was all he was concerned with, and all he taught.
Anything else just boils down to speculation because there is no way to objectively know. My limited human brain cannot reach out and grasp the beginning of time, nor the ending of it. All it can ever know is this present moment that continously flows throughout existence.
If "I" truly had that answer, "I" would not be here.
Jason
Intellect will give no answer to this koan. try as you might.
How would a rock reply to this question, I wonder. It does not choose to exist, and chances are there was no purpose behind it's existence. It might have broken off a larger rock in a landslide, but the "purpose" of the landslide was not to create that rock. It just happened, and the rock just exists. It needs no justification - and neither do I.
That is NOT to say that I do not help others. I help others a lot - whether they are family, friends, or strangers. I love helping others. Sometimes it's donating money, sometimes it's giving a friend food because she doesn't have money to eat, sometimes it's just being there for someone who needs a shoulder to cry on. However, I don't do so to justify my existence.
By the way, I hope you stick around after you get your answers to this one question. Perhaps you'll find, as I have, that the people here are rarely smug. In fact, I would say that the regular members of this forum are among the humblest, sincere, and kindest people I've ever had the pleasure to meet.
Before I even attempt to answer your question, I need to understand it. What are your criteria for "justification"?
So, Spike, what are your criteria?
That would presumably include you too, then.
Hegel suggested only in the state does a man have rational existence.
Is it right that a buddhist can opt out of the responsibilities to the state, whilst doing so under the protection of that state ?
But this of course has many inconsistancies. Are all created equal ?
Why am I angry at the symbiotic relationship between those searching for enlightenment and those who provide the food for them to do so.
Do you have to suffer personally to understand suffering, and isnt it all relative anyway ?
It tires me to be bombarded with half baked pretend buddhists asking what the sun smells like.
I think and feel that as one recognises something in a great piece of artwork that is true; that has resonance; the same can be understood when encountering those on a path or journey.
Giving food to a hungry friend, or a shoulder to cry on are admirable. On the scheme of things though, they are shit arent they ?
How much more can we do if we stopped poncing about on the internet and got stuck in out there.
Took the words right out of my mouth!....I believe that the response about the Sun was by BeautifulSpringtimeFist in the thread "Dualistic Thinking" and was actually as follows:
How can you describe the sound of the sun?
So, Spike, if you are going to quote people, please do so accurately and in context!
Why are all of your questions posed in such an offensive and insulting manner?
I think if I were going to use actual quotes I would do it like this.
Yes I would.
I don't know whether you have taken the time to study the CORE elements of Buddhism, such as the Eight Fold Path or The Four Noble Truths......if you have then why are you narrowing your comments to such isolated areas? This is like judging the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses by their simple refusal to accept blood transfusions, without any knowledge of their Overall Faith.
I believe that it would be of some value for you to familiarise yourself with the real fundamentals of Buddhism, where I feel sure you would have little or no basis for arguement. This Religion or Philosophy has been studied and followed mainly in the the past by Far eastern cultures. The fact that these simple teachings have spread to the West is down to the very fact that certain individuals have chosen to pass down the original teachings and share this simple compassionate means of living. Therefore if you believe in these teachings, then the answer to What do these People contribute back to the State or Society is surely answered!
Okay... I think we can all see the true nature of these responses and questions.
Spike - there are plenty of forums out there if you just wish to start flame war.
If, on the other hand - and I highly doubt it - you have some morsel of sincerety in what you're stating or questions you're asking - maybe 'you' need to spend some time away from the keyboard.
I believe everyone has been very polite in trying to discuss something with you and you can only retort with maliciousness and rhetoric.
If everyone bothers you so much - just leave. It's really quite simple.
-bf
I agree, one really should ignore and avoid all things we find distasteful.
Spike,
There are times when your mode of expression appears abrasive, although I remain prepared to respond calmly. I do, however, think that you damage yourself and your appeal to an audience here by your last remark.
Hegel had a valid point. We are interdependent beings. Indeed, Buddhism is very clear that all phenomena arise interdependently. Thus, as humans, we are connected to all other humans and, beyond them, to all that is. It is not possible to come into existence without such a connection because we are born of other humans who were born of other humans, etc. Long before Hegel, John Donne said it in verse! This is no new idea and the Shakyamuni, like the Galilean, enjoined feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and helping the afflicted.
I would agree that Siddhartha's abandoning his wife and child are, to our eyes, inhumane and uncaring. But we force thousands of soldiers to do just that, in order to go and kill "enemies". We force millions to work unsocial hours or - as in apartheid South Africa - to leave their home town to work so far away that they cannot get home. The pressures that are brought to bear by the economics of shortage are such that we have rising separation and divorce rates for no better declared reason than boredom or yearning for "greener pastures". It is a particularly modern myth that relationships and family life should take precedence over everything else - even when we make it impossible to attain!
It is also true, to some extent, that the Way taught by the Buddha and the generations of teachers since his time has some elements of "elitism", but then, which discipline does not? I cannot play the violin like Yehudi Menuhin but I did not find his playing unacceptable simply because he had spent so long in practice. I cannot row as well as Matthew Pinsent because I have not practised, nor have I been born with his physique. Would you have us all levelled by the lowest? Should society only accept those who are 'productive' in ways that the state defines? It is one of the most heart-warming things to see the joy with which monks and nuns are greeted in India. They are not seen as 'parasites' but are understood to fill a necessary niche.
When I asked you for your criteria, it was because you had started this thread by asking how we each 'justified' our existence. Until we know what you mean by 'justify' (an interesting theological word in and of itself), how can we answer. Many Protestant Christians believe that they are justified by faith alone. Is that what you mean?
Remember: if you begin a Socratic thread, you are likely to be asked to define your terms.
I agree.
I've managed to ignore your posts until it gets to the point where you reduce a thread to inane, name calling. Then I chose "not" to ignore.
I think you make some great points that take people from living with rose colored glasses to thinking about the (possibly) more realistic, seedy side of life.
I just don't believe that treating someone else condescendly or childishly (when I don't believe it's been reciprocated to you) provides anything positive.
So - from this point on - I will continue to ignore those things that are neither here nor there regarding your posts.
Best wishes,
-bf
Hey does anyone know what the sun smells like, SUCKA???!!!!!
Spike,
If you are simply looking for philosophically intelligent people to debate with ad nauseum, I must offer up front that I am not well suited for such 'verbal jousting'. I have not studied much about philosophy, philosophers, or methods of analysis, so I would make a very poor opponent, and an easy mark I'm afraid.
This site is not about such displays however, it is about helping those new to Buddhism understand it a little bit better. Buddhism in the West is uncharted territory for many people. They see a picture, or hear a story and want to learn more, but there is a lot of none sense out there i.e. Buddha is some fat guy Chinese restaurants venerate for better business...
Brian began this site as a way to give beginners information, guidance, and a place to discuss Buddhism with fellow practitioners. All are welcome to come and participate in that discussion, but I do not believe that people who are consistently rude, coarse, abusive in language, and uncivil to other members should be tolerated. People are certainly free to speak as they wish, but when that speech begins to personally attack others - it is going too far.
However you may have meant, "Up yours fatty!" I think it still has crossed that line. There is no benefit to discussing anything with someone so discourteous.
You have shown that you are very intelligent, and I feel that you could offer a lot to our discussion however, you have also shown that you have anger and contempt for us less philosophically inclined posters. I find it sad that you choose to be vague and insulting when you could actually help us all learn a great deal more. I, for one, have not heard about Hegel, but just because I have not been exposed to his works does not make me a pretentious idiot. I have chosen to study Buddhism because I see a great deal of truth and understanding within its teachings. I find that the more I study my mind, my thoughts, and my actions I notice more and more of what the Buddha was trying to explain. When I do something, I can see the underlying tendencies that condition that something. Even if I cannot change the process yet, I can at least, for the first time, view it as it is happening. While you may not appreciate or respect that, I have consciously made this practice an important part of my life because of it. I find it fascinating to say the least.
I'm sorry to see that you are wasting your intelligence on belittling people, and adding more fuel to your already inflated sense of self.
Perhaps Simon, with his years of experience and wisdom, can give you what you are looking for. If anyone can debate and teach at the same time, it is him.
I find that I am at a loss for much more than long winded posts about nothing more important than intelligent sounding chastisements. (Which is quite funny if you knew me because I'm not like that at all. If it were in person I would just say, "Stop being an @$$hole.")
Jason
i think people do not want to justify themselves to you because as soon as you submit your will to someone else for judgement you,ve lost a part of yourself.
It worked! You have lots of attention
No, I will not ban you.
'"Justify your existence to me. Yes, that's right"
That would go down a storm on the Accident Report......
You raise an interesting point this time Federica. I do hold the power of life and death in my hands. Am I worthy to do so ?
Would you or your family need rescue from a fire ? Or do you accept the inevitability of death and suffering ?
Surely everytime you drive and decide not to jump up onto the curb you execute your power of life or death?
Whether you are worthy to do so is only a question that you can answer. Anyone else attempting to do so would be pure conjecture, judgement and opinion....
Death and Suffering are inevitable. but so is the desire to be free from suffering.... One cannot ultimately escape Death, but there's nothing to say one shouldn't avoid it where one can.....!
Nice to see you back Spike!
I love your answer, and while reading your other postings, I am impress. I think I learn something from you.
cheers,
Amitabha
I am happy that you found it helpful.
Jason
how many times have you come to find out that what you thought was something that happen in your 'life' happened in your 'dreams'?
i have dreamt of having my teeth fall out. i have even had a dream that my teeth fell out, i woke up and checked if they were there and then they fell out again, and then i woke up in "reality". such is life. nonsense. and how limited life can be when expressed in verbal communication. to make sense of all this, i have not read Hegel. i have read Rand, Nietzche, Kant, Thoreau, Emerson, and so many other things. when i was in third grade my father gave me the tao of pooh to read. and, for awhile i chose to thumb threw taoism and use that as a means of escape from myself.
how do i justify my existence?
so i have been taking up buddhism. i'm only twenty years old, i can't remember the last time i sat down to meditate. i can remember the times drugs and alcohol took away the burden of reflecting, for awhile. but, now i don't. and it wasn't reading buddhism that changed my ways of escaping life. i still don't know what life is. i try thinking about what existence is and why i should be here, wherever here is. and i think about what i should be doing with my time. and i think, think, think, think, think, think, think.....
time ticks by between when i'm born and when i die. nothing seems to bring about how i treat myself, how i quite my mind, and how i treat others as much as buddhism, whatever it is. nondualistic thought, should i say this is positive or negative. i guess i'm presuming too much to say that this is a positive thing and it will help make the world a better place, butterfly effect.
I make a good cup of tea.