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Thank you for the post Mike. You have shed a good deal of light on the issue. I'm sure that many people here can benefit from your experience. As for my dispute with questionful, I think we can call it a draw.-Pete
mike1127-I read that through meditation you are able to be more mindful of the arising of anxiety. Has this translated into decreased anxiety in day to day life. I mean is meditation a cure for anxiety. Or are you saying that anxiety does not prevent you from meditating. Depending on your answer I may need to apologize to questionful.-P
Hi Robot.I have seen people lose the plot totally while meditating,so to assume that if 1 person with anxiety has either-A-been cured or B-it has not stopped them from meditating is not truly a scientific base for a comment.I am not saying that a person with some sort of personality disorder or what ever the heck the pc term is for it these days cannot not meditate,I am saying that unfortunately with some people it is not advisable.I don't know how we would know this until they tried,but many meditation centers ask on their application forms about any problems in this area that you have,or have had and what meds you are on.
I wish I could say it is beneficial for everyone,heck I'd bust my gut trying to get centers into every hospital around the planet.
With metta
Nanadhaja,Thank you. The only experience that I have with meditation and mental illness up to this point has been my own. As I said in my earlier post I do have a number of relatives and friends who have suffered or are suffering from mental illness. I think that I have this in common with many people. In most cases medication has been a big part of the program for recovery or relief at least. I really don't know anyone who uses meditation as part of their program. My sister has been into prayer however. In my own case, much of my suffering was relieved through a combination of medication and psychotherapy, long before I started to practice meditating. The reason that I put the question to Mike was not as part of a scientific poll. In my earlier posts to questionful I had been quite vehement about my belief that Buddhist meditation should not be a substitute for medication. I think that Mike's post on the subject was useful for both of us.
Thank goodness for so many sensible and knowledgeable people on this site. And I also hope that anyone with a serious mental illness who reads some of questionful's advice realises that this is one person's opinion; and that they do not appear to have any medical, psychiatric or solid scientific qualifications.
Bottom line. If you have a serious mental illness - and we're not talking about someone who sometimes feels a bit anxious or has a few days feeling down - needs medical advice and treatment alongside their practice.
On another thread I have referred to the Dalai Llama's brother who also suffers from a major mental illness and has had drug addiction problems. He is a fulltime ordained Buddhist who works with the Dalai Llama as an aide. He has spoken out about his mental illness, addiction and medication. The Dalai Llama fully supports his position and is on record as saying that for some medication is necessary and it is sensible to take advice and medication prescribed by your doctor. He's not talking about popping a valium because you feel a bit shaky, or talking temazepam becuase you've had a little trouble sleeping; he's talking about those of us who are almost or completely incapacitated by our illness and may otherwise end up dead through suicide or permanently hospitalised and dying a different kind of death.
For my own part the reason that I am still here, still practicing and able to meditate is because of six years of psychotherapy and a skillful psychiatrist who has prescrbed the right combination of medication. I am also a psychologist with many years experience of Buddhism (and other paths), I happen to have a serious mental illness, so am in the fortunate position of knowing what I'm talking about when it comes to living and practicing with a mental illness - just like several others here. They should be listened to - they are walking that path rather than looking 'down' at it from the privileged position of a life without that particular difficulty.
Taking medication does not make you a failed buddhist whose practice is inadequate and faulty. It makes you a sensible Buddhist who recognises that some illnesses need treatment and care - just like diabetics.
Regarding meditation and some types of illness (particularly if it is untreated), it is true that some can experience a worsening of symptoms: increased anxiety, feelings of unreality, intensification of delusions and hallucinations. This means that they may be advised to concentrate on other aspects of Buddhist practice and when more stable to use different methods such as walking meditation, creating mandalas or everyday mindfulness rather than sitting with eyes closed.
Thank you, Nanadhaja and Fran45. I can identify with what you are saying. Being a long time sufferer of GAD and the resultant depression, I myself had found benefit from both medication and cognitive behaviour therapy. There are times I find shamatha or vipassana meditation actually causes a measure stress... but at these difficult times I switch to metta meditation which I find more suited to my temperament and come back to other types of meditation when I feel less anxious or stressed.
.I am not saying that a person with some sort of personality disorder or what ever the heck the pc term is for it these days cannot not meditate,I am saying that unfortunately with some people it is not advisable.
Regarding PC terms, you know, I just say "mental illness" or sometimes "emotional illness." For a while, insurance companies were calling it "behavioral health" which is stupid: the distress is largely caused by our mental processes, not by our behavior. This also implies that as long as we are "behaving fine," we have no problem. Now they are calling it "cognitive health," which is also not very accurate since the distress is largely in emotions and not entirely in the cognitive process (although the cognitive process, in terms of how we understand ourselves and the disorder, definitely contributes).
Regarding PC terms, you know, I just say "mental illness" or sometimes "emotional illness." For a while, insurance companies were calling it "behavioral health" which is stupid: the distress is largely caused by our mental processes, not by our behavior. This also implies that as long as we are "behaving fine," we have no problem. Now they are calling it "cognitive health," which is also not very accurate since the distress is largely in emotions and not entirely in the cognitive process (although the cognitive process, in terms of how we understand ourselves and the disorder, definitely contributes).
Mike
It gets real confusing at times.Years ago I worked with intellectually disabled people.They had originally been called intellectually handicapped people and if you called them by the original name there was the distinct sound of the pc brigade sucking in air through their teeth.I'm sure that somewhere tucked away in a secret bunker are a bunch of people whose job it is to change the name of things to keep us all confused.Hey maybe they are paid for by "cognitive disorder repair specialists" to make more of us need their services.:eek:
well fortunately several people that know what they're talking about better than me have contributed. but I don't think i'm completely clueless on the matter. for example, Mike said:
Like most people with anxiety, my mind was spinning and I had very little insight into the nature of thought. I constantly "bought into" my thoughts as if they presented an immediate danger, and they came at me so fast I couldn't see what was happening for a long time.
I think I used to be like that about 2 years ago. I remember it was extremely difficult for me to talk to people, especially females, and I wouldn't know what to say and I'd experience very strong anxiety and sometimes facial twitches, and I thought something was wrong with me that no one else had. For me the drug that really helped me conquer that was marijuana. Then after some time with marijuana I found the teachings of the Buddha and those transformed my reality even more. What I found is that marijuana transformed my reality, but only to an extent, and it didn't solve my problems completely. Dhamma, however, keeps on transforming! It doesn't stop! It goes much deeper than marijuana. It really SOLVES problems by getting closer and closer to their root.
There are two more things I would like to add.
First, I think it's important to note that "meditation" is an extremely vague term, and beginners, especially those deep in delusion, might do some unskilful action, thinking that they are "meditating," and cause themselves stress. I think that is completely typical. I certainly experienced that, and still do (less tho)! But I found that I had at least enough faith to just keep trying, and, a certain percentage of my meditations would go well and that would be extremely valuable. So I think just because meditation sometimes produces or "amplifies" stress does not mean it should be avoided. Although I guess it would be sensible for someone to decide to avoid meditating alone, and seek a guide/mentor/teacher.
Second, I remember once after posting in this thread, later that day it suddenly occurred to me that the Three Jewels are very relevant to this discussion. I think the Buddha's advice is always bomb, and he said to take refuge in these three jewels. For someone who is deep in delusion, REFUGE is sooooo good. It provides relief, FAITH, and happiness. I think psychotherapy counts as three jewels, because as soon as you have more than one person working together for the benefit of truth, that is sangha. And in a sangha they speak of dhamma, even if it's not Buddha-dhamma. So, for anyone suffering from anything, including "mental illness," the Buddha said (I can't find a quote) to take Refuge in the Three Jewels. The three jewels are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. The Buddha is hard to understand, and he's dead but you can read his quotes. Dhamma means the real truth, and it is awesome, and has the power to transform your reality. Sangha is a group of people working together to learn and practice dhamma. The word refuge is no understatement.
...................
Second, I remember once after posting in this thread, later that day it suddenly occurred to me that the Three Jewels are very relevant to this discussion. I think the Buddha's advice is always bomb, and he said to take refuge in these three jewels. For someone who is deep in delusion, REFUGE is sooooo good. It provides relief, FAITH, and happiness. .............
Yes... Taking refuge in the Triple Gem, IMHO, is a contemplation of the Buddha's core teaching. The "Buddha" reminds me of the Buddha Wisdom, the wisdom of the Four Noble Truths. The "Dhamma" reminds me of the ultimate reality that can be realized in the present moment. The "Sangha" reminds me of the virtue and discipline of the Buddha's disciples. So in the refuge is contained morality, mindfulness, and wisdom. Taking refuge is a good way to boost ones confidence in ones practice. This, of course, is just my personal view.
So you are mostly right. You are 99% right when you say a person with severe anxiety and depression should not embark on a meditative path.
What? :eek:
Well like I said I have 2 anxiety disorders and depression as a result, and the meditative path is the only thing that has worked for me significantly.
Whatever our situation is, the four noble truths are still true, and suffering in some form will continue, anxiety or not, unless, we follow the eightfold path, practice dharma, and strive for enlightenment. In my opinion/experience.
Well like I said I have 2 anxiety disorders and depression as a result, and the meditative path is the only thing that has worked for me significantly.
Well, I should probably not have made a blanket statement. Anxiety is a complex thing with many presentations. I would be interested in hearing more about your symptoms, how long you've had these disorders, what style of meditation you use and how long you've practiced it, what your moment-to-moment experience of meditation is like, and how you feel it has impacted your life.
Whatever our situation is, the four noble truths are still true, and suffering in some form will continue, anxiety or not, unless, we follow the eightfold path, practice dharma, and strive for enlightenment. In my opinion/experience.
For some people, means other than meditation are required to do these things; meditation is not feasible or it is even harmful.
I'm another for whom mindfulness and meditation have been a godsend (buddhasend? ) for anxiety.
I suffered from GAD my whole life, which turned into panic disorder after a traumatic event when I was 18. I suffered from daily panic attacks for seven years; for many years I couldn't be in a car for more than about 20 minutes, I had trouble with "crowds" of more than about 4 or 5 people, etc. I became extremely agoraphobic and had terrible health anxiety.
I went on Paxil in 2002, which I found to be very helpful. It stopped the panic attacks and allowed me to live a "normal" life. However, I hit tolerance (which I now know is fairly common after years of use) and started having panic and health anxiety even worse than ever in 2007, even while still taking my full dosage.
I doubled my dose at the recommendation of a doctor and began doing Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. This is where I first learned of mindfulness and meditation. I began weaning off the Paxil in 2008 after a year of weekly CBT and practicing mindfulness. I weaned very slowly -- 10% drops every 3 weeks -- and am now nearly 5 months Paxil-free.
CBT and mindfulness have been absolutely essential to my life without panic. I still have anxiety flare-ups, but they're the exception rather than the norm (my last bad phase was the month of September, so almost 3 months ago). Thanks to my practice, I can see anxiety as just another phase to go through, which will eventually end, like pain or any other type of transient suffering.
I just started "real" meditation a few weeks ago. I'm not sure I would have been able to meditate during the intense periods of my panic and anxiety, but after 3 years of CBT and mindfulness practice, I'm finding the meditation incredibly helpful. I feel more grounded and less mentally anxious than I have since I originally started taking Paxil. I had an episode of heart palpitations a couple of weeks ago (caused by anxiety; I've had 3 EKGs and a Holter monitor...did I mention the health anxiety? ) and through just 10 minutes of meditation, I was able to prevent the "scary thoughts" from taking over and becoming an anxiety attack.
Wow, this was way longer than I intended it to be.
Well, I should probably not have made a blanket statement. Anxiety is a complex thing with many presentations. I would be interested in hearing more about your symptoms, how long you've had these disorders, what style of meditation you use and how long you've practiced it, what your moment-to-moment experience of meditation is like, and how you feel it has impacted your life.
For some people, means other than meditation are required to do these things; meditation is not feasible or it is even harmful.
I can personal message you my symptoms in more depth, cause its not too relavent for this thread.
But,
What are some means other than meditation to continue on the path to enlightenment?
In what ways can meditation be harmfull to anxiety?
But,
What are some means other than meditation to continue on the path to enlightenment?
In what ways can meditation be harmful to anxiety?
If by "enlightenment" you mean some "one and only" definition that is apropos only to Buddhism, then you may disagree with this list. Personally, I see a lot of overlap between Buddhism and various forms of Western talk therapies and other modalities.
To me, what's important is, as you write "continuing on the path." People have to start where they are, and they may have to journey for a ways before coming to a place that allows them to use Buddhist meditation.
Psychotherapy is a major possibility for traveling the path, and some therapists are influenced by Buddhism.
T'ai Chi is a nice possibility for people with anxiety, and it may seem to be about just movement, but one can gain insights from it that can open up into something more total.
There are two related, and very interesting, Western disciplines known as Alexander Technique and the Feldenkrais Method. They both work with movement (in the same sense that T'ai Chi works with movement) and can provide a kind of enlightened attitude toward performing physical tasks which can transfer into something more total if a person is open to it.
There are some Eastern teachers who don't ask their students to meditate. I heard a talk by one, but I'm not sure if he was Buddhist.
These things can be preliminaries to meditating.
Meditation can intensify mental states and so it can "put people over the edge" if they are unstable to start with. If it's working for you, then I don't mean to contradict that.
Comments
I wish I could say it is beneficial for everyone,heck I'd bust my gut trying to get centers into every hospital around the planet.
With metta
Bottom line. If you have a serious mental illness - and we're not talking about someone who sometimes feels a bit anxious or has a few days feeling down - needs medical advice and treatment alongside their practice.
On another thread I have referred to the Dalai Llama's brother who also suffers from a major mental illness and has had drug addiction problems. He is a fulltime ordained Buddhist who works with the Dalai Llama as an aide. He has spoken out about his mental illness, addiction and medication. The Dalai Llama fully supports his position and is on record as saying that for some medication is necessary and it is sensible to take advice and medication prescribed by your doctor. He's not talking about popping a valium because you feel a bit shaky, or talking temazepam becuase you've had a little trouble sleeping; he's talking about those of us who are almost or completely incapacitated by our illness and may otherwise end up dead through suicide or permanently hospitalised and dying a different kind of death.
For my own part the reason that I am still here, still practicing and able to meditate is because of six years of psychotherapy and a skillful psychiatrist who has prescrbed the right combination of medication. I am also a psychologist with many years experience of Buddhism (and other paths), I happen to have a serious mental illness, so am in the fortunate position of knowing what I'm talking about when it comes to living and practicing with a mental illness - just like several others here. They should be listened to - they are walking that path rather than looking 'down' at it from the privileged position of a life without that particular difficulty.
Taking medication does not make you a failed buddhist whose practice is inadequate and faulty. It makes you a sensible Buddhist who recognises that some illnesses need treatment and care - just like diabetics.
Regarding meditation and some types of illness (particularly if it is untreated), it is true that some can experience a worsening of symptoms: increased anxiety, feelings of unreality, intensification of delusions and hallucinations. This means that they may be advised to concentrate on other aspects of Buddhist practice and when more stable to use different methods such as walking meditation, creating mandalas or everyday mindfulness rather than sitting with eyes closed.
Metta
Regarding PC terms, you know, I just say "mental illness" or sometimes "emotional illness." For a while, insurance companies were calling it "behavioral health" which is stupid: the distress is largely caused by our mental processes, not by our behavior. This also implies that as long as we are "behaving fine," we have no problem. Now they are calling it "cognitive health," which is also not very accurate since the distress is largely in emotions and not entirely in the cognitive process (although the cognitive process, in terms of how we understand ourselves and the disorder, definitely contributes).
Mike
I think I used to be like that about 2 years ago. I remember it was extremely difficult for me to talk to people, especially females, and I wouldn't know what to say and I'd experience very strong anxiety and sometimes facial twitches, and I thought something was wrong with me that no one else had. For me the drug that really helped me conquer that was marijuana. Then after some time with marijuana I found the teachings of the Buddha and those transformed my reality even more. What I found is that marijuana transformed my reality, but only to an extent, and it didn't solve my problems completely. Dhamma, however, keeps on transforming! It doesn't stop! It goes much deeper than marijuana. It really SOLVES problems by getting closer and closer to their root.
There are two more things I would like to add.
First, I think it's important to note that "meditation" is an extremely vague term, and beginners, especially those deep in delusion, might do some unskilful action, thinking that they are "meditating," and cause themselves stress. I think that is completely typical. I certainly experienced that, and still do (less tho)! But I found that I had at least enough faith to just keep trying, and, a certain percentage of my meditations would go well and that would be extremely valuable. So I think just because meditation sometimes produces or "amplifies" stress does not mean it should be avoided. Although I guess it would be sensible for someone to decide to avoid meditating alone, and seek a guide/mentor/teacher.
Second, I remember once after posting in this thread, later that day it suddenly occurred to me that the Three Jewels are very relevant to this discussion. I think the Buddha's advice is always bomb, and he said to take refuge in these three jewels. For someone who is deep in delusion, REFUGE is sooooo good. It provides relief, FAITH, and happiness. I think psychotherapy counts as three jewels, because as soon as you have more than one person working together for the benefit of truth, that is sangha. And in a sangha they speak of dhamma, even if it's not Buddha-dhamma. So, for anyone suffering from anything, including "mental illness," the Buddha said (I can't find a quote) to take Refuge in the Three Jewels. The three jewels are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. The Buddha is hard to understand, and he's dead but you can read his quotes. Dhamma means the real truth, and it is awesome, and has the power to transform your reality. Sangha is a group of people working together to learn and practice dhamma. The word refuge is no understatement.
Yes... Taking refuge in the Triple Gem, IMHO, is a contemplation of the Buddha's core teaching. The "Buddha" reminds me of the Buddha Wisdom, the wisdom of the Four Noble Truths. The "Dhamma" reminds me of the ultimate reality that can be realized in the present moment. The "Sangha" reminds me of the virtue and discipline of the Buddha's disciples. So in the refuge is contained morality, mindfulness, and wisdom. Taking refuge is a good way to boost ones confidence in ones practice. This, of course, is just my personal view.
What? :eek:
Well like I said I have 2 anxiety disorders and depression as a result, and the meditative path is the only thing that has worked for me significantly.
Whatever our situation is, the four noble truths are still true, and suffering in some form will continue, anxiety or not, unless, we follow the eightfold path, practice dharma, and strive for enlightenment. In my opinion/experience.
Well, I should probably not have made a blanket statement. Anxiety is a complex thing with many presentations. I would be interested in hearing more about your symptoms, how long you've had these disorders, what style of meditation you use and how long you've practiced it, what your moment-to-moment experience of meditation is like, and how you feel it has impacted your life.
For some people, means other than meditation are required to do these things; meditation is not feasible or it is even harmful.
I suffered from GAD my whole life, which turned into panic disorder after a traumatic event when I was 18. I suffered from daily panic attacks for seven years; for many years I couldn't be in a car for more than about 20 minutes, I had trouble with "crowds" of more than about 4 or 5 people, etc. I became extremely agoraphobic and had terrible health anxiety.
I went on Paxil in 2002, which I found to be very helpful. It stopped the panic attacks and allowed me to live a "normal" life. However, I hit tolerance (which I now know is fairly common after years of use) and started having panic and health anxiety even worse than ever in 2007, even while still taking my full dosage.
I doubled my dose at the recommendation of a doctor and began doing Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. This is where I first learned of mindfulness and meditation. I began weaning off the Paxil in 2008 after a year of weekly CBT and practicing mindfulness. I weaned very slowly -- 10% drops every 3 weeks -- and am now nearly 5 months Paxil-free.
CBT and mindfulness have been absolutely essential to my life without panic. I still have anxiety flare-ups, but they're the exception rather than the norm (my last bad phase was the month of September, so almost 3 months ago). Thanks to my practice, I can see anxiety as just another phase to go through, which will eventually end, like pain or any other type of transient suffering.
I just started "real" meditation a few weeks ago. I'm not sure I would have been able to meditate during the intense periods of my panic and anxiety, but after 3 years of CBT and mindfulness practice, I'm finding the meditation incredibly helpful. I feel more grounded and less mentally anxious than I have since I originally started taking Paxil. I had an episode of heart palpitations a couple of weeks ago (caused by anxiety; I've had 3 EKGs and a Holter monitor...did I mention the health anxiety?
Wow, this was way longer than I intended it to be.
I can personal message you my symptoms in more depth, cause its not too relavent for this thread.
But,
What are some means other than meditation to continue on the path to enlightenment?
In what ways can meditation be harmfull to anxiety?
If by "enlightenment" you mean some "one and only" definition that is apropos only to Buddhism, then you may disagree with this list. Personally, I see a lot of overlap between Buddhism and various forms of Western talk therapies and other modalities.
To me, what's important is, as you write "continuing on the path." People have to start where they are, and they may have to journey for a ways before coming to a place that allows them to use Buddhist meditation.
Psychotherapy is a major possibility for traveling the path, and some therapists are influenced by Buddhism.
T'ai Chi is a nice possibility for people with anxiety, and it may seem to be about just movement, but one can gain insights from it that can open up into something more total.
There are two related, and very interesting, Western disciplines known as Alexander Technique and the Feldenkrais Method. They both work with movement (in the same sense that T'ai Chi works with movement) and can provide a kind of enlightened attitude toward performing physical tasks which can transfer into something more total if a person is open to it.
There are some Eastern teachers who don't ask their students to meditate. I heard a talk by one, but I'm not sure if he was Buddhist.
These things can be preliminaries to meditating.
Meditation can intensify mental states and so it can "put people over the edge" if they are unstable to start with. If it's working for you, then I don't mean to contradict that.
Mike