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Is there anything more important than reaching Nirvana?
In all likelihood, none of us here has yet reached the state of Nirvana: for it is a rare thing indeed for a human being to reach this level of development. Therefore we have no firsthand knowledge or experience of Nirvana.
But the Buddha reached Nirvana, and he spoke of it many times and in many ways to us, his followers--indeed, he told us exactly how to achieve it. From his teachings we learn that each of us is capable of achieving Nirvana in this lifetime, if we follow the correct Path.
My current understanding of Nirvana (and I welcome differing views) is that it is complete and total freedom from everything that binds or enslaves us. Freedom from fear, from suffering, from doubt, from greed, from conditioned thinking, from delusion, from the idea of a separate "self," from all forms of craving and addiction, from anger and hatred, from the need for approval, from a need to prove ourselves, from all forms of thinking that bind us, all the erroneous ideas we cling to.
By letting go of these things, says the Buddha, we can achieve ultimate freedom:
Upon reaching Nirvana (this is my understanding), we will be freed from the endless cycle of "constant journeying" (Digha Nikaya), from returning to this realm again and again. We will progress into a higher realm of being, "beyond birth and death."
From my (admittedly meager) study of the Buddha's teachings thus far, it seems to me that in considering what we want to achieve in this lifetime, a question of paramount importance is:
Is there anything more important than reaching Nirvana?
I have asked myself this question many times, and so far I have been unable to think of anything more important than becoming completely and totally free from everything that binds me.
Imagine, for instance, becoming completely free of fear. Oh, what an empowering liberation that would be! That alone would be the achievement of a lifetime--of many lifetimes, in fact--and it is just one facet of the Nirvanic gem, one manifestation of ultimate freedom.
The erroneous notion that pursuing our own liberation above all other things might be "selfish" quickly evaporates when we realize that, upon attaining Enlightenment ourselves, we automatically become a light to everyone around us:
"An awakened follower when he is fully enlightened, without even consciously attempting to, leads all beings to Nirvana." (Prajnaparamita)
Nirvana, then, is not only the highest possible good for us ourselves, but also for everyone around us: family, friends, strangers, everyone we meet. As the sun shines its nourishing light and warmth and energy upon the world, so the enlightened spirit shines its luminous radiance upon all they touch: the world is lifted up by our own arising, and the attaining of Enlightenment/Nirvana therefore becomes the greatest possible service we can do for humanity. "Without wisdom you can do nothing for others." (Prajnaparamita)
But knowing that my own thoughts and ideas are often skewed and limited, I ask you all: can anyone here think of anything that is more important in this lifetime than reaching Nirvana? Is there any higher or worthier or greater goal? Any achievement that surpasses that?
I ask this question because I feel I am at a crossroads in my own life. I feel I need to make some serious life decisions, about whether to continue chasing after the things of this realm--success, money, recognition, the achievement of "earthly" goals, the approval of others, etc.--or whether to let go of all those things, and devote myself--not partly, not mostly, but wholly--to the Nirvanic quest.
Has anyone else here given thought to these things? If so, please share. Perhaps we can help each other find the answers (or at least the questions).
But the Buddha reached Nirvana, and he spoke of it many times and in many ways to us, his followers--indeed, he told us exactly how to achieve it. From his teachings we learn that each of us is capable of achieving Nirvana in this lifetime, if we follow the correct Path.
My current understanding of Nirvana (and I welcome differing views) is that it is complete and total freedom from everything that binds or enslaves us. Freedom from fear, from suffering, from doubt, from greed, from conditioned thinking, from delusion, from the idea of a separate "self," from all forms of craving and addiction, from anger and hatred, from the need for approval, from a need to prove ourselves, from all forms of thinking that bind us, all the erroneous ideas we cling to.
By letting go of these things, says the Buddha, we can achieve ultimate freedom:
"As you cease grasping, so you will be freed." -- Digha Nikaya
"There is nothing you need to hold onto and nothing you need to push away." -- Sutta Nipata
"When you grasp, you are losing your freedom." -- Sutta Nipata
The Buddha describes Nirvana as "the highest happiness" (Dhammapada) and "the true reality" (Surangama Sutra). "Nirvana is wherever you live in truth and goodness," the Buddha says in the Majjhima Nikaya."There is nothing you need to hold onto and nothing you need to push away." -- Sutta Nipata
"When you grasp, you are losing your freedom." -- Sutta Nipata
Upon reaching Nirvana (this is my understanding), we will be freed from the endless cycle of "constant journeying" (Digha Nikaya), from returning to this realm again and again. We will progress into a higher realm of being, "beyond birth and death."
From my (admittedly meager) study of the Buddha's teachings thus far, it seems to me that in considering what we want to achieve in this lifetime, a question of paramount importance is:
Is there anything more important than reaching Nirvana?
I have asked myself this question many times, and so far I have been unable to think of anything more important than becoming completely and totally free from everything that binds me.
Imagine, for instance, becoming completely free of fear. Oh, what an empowering liberation that would be! That alone would be the achievement of a lifetime--of many lifetimes, in fact--and it is just one facet of the Nirvanic gem, one manifestation of ultimate freedom.
The erroneous notion that pursuing our own liberation above all other things might be "selfish" quickly evaporates when we realize that, upon attaining Enlightenment ourselves, we automatically become a light to everyone around us:
"An awakened follower when he is fully enlightened, without even consciously attempting to, leads all beings to Nirvana." (Prajnaparamita)
Nirvana, then, is not only the highest possible good for us ourselves, but also for everyone around us: family, friends, strangers, everyone we meet. As the sun shines its nourishing light and warmth and energy upon the world, so the enlightened spirit shines its luminous radiance upon all they touch: the world is lifted up by our own arising, and the attaining of Enlightenment/Nirvana therefore becomes the greatest possible service we can do for humanity. "Without wisdom you can do nothing for others." (Prajnaparamita)
But knowing that my own thoughts and ideas are often skewed and limited, I ask you all: can anyone here think of anything that is more important in this lifetime than reaching Nirvana? Is there any higher or worthier or greater goal? Any achievement that surpasses that?
I ask this question because I feel I am at a crossroads in my own life. I feel I need to make some serious life decisions, about whether to continue chasing after the things of this realm--success, money, recognition, the achievement of "earthly" goals, the approval of others, etc.--or whether to let go of all those things, and devote myself--not partly, not mostly, but wholly--to the Nirvanic quest.
Has anyone else here given thought to these things? If so, please share. Perhaps we can help each other find the answers (or at least the questions).
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Comments
The questions and answers are revealed to people as they're ready for them, I believe. And even if I spend my whole life practicing and still never get any of those answers in this lifetime, at least I can still be proud of the life I led.
if we can not achieve Nirvana
next (possible) important achievement is getting the Right View
this is the best gift that any human being can give to oneself
yes
but being a mum, grandma, wife and daughter there are so many responsibilities on my shoulder at the moment which bar me from taking such a Noble Step
(at the end of the day, truth is i still attach to those roles and i know very well it)
I made up a list of reasons why I should not and a list of why I should.The more I looked at the reasons not to,the more things I crossed off.They just meant less and less each time I looked.
I hope you find the answer soon.
With metta
I've battled demons so powerful that they can crack tree branches and knock down traffic signs.
The negative powers will not let you go so easily... that is why Buddhas achivement was so amazing.
It's not easy... it can be downright scary.
So remember... when Nirvana shines brightly Samsara will also loom more darkly.
That is why Buddha preached the Middle Way.
Why do you want to reach nirvana? Nirvana is not an escape capsule ready to rescue from your own fears and aspirations. When you learn to face your fears you'll find Nirvana no longer holds any attractive.
Liberation is not a means to escape the world. When you stop trying to escape and embrace our interconnectedness you will realize that sentient beings are more important.
Meanwhile, concentrate on the Eight Fold Path.
According to the Buddha, the path leads to freedom, or Nirvana: "There is freedom from desire and sorrow at the end of the way." (Dhammapada)
As I understand the Buddha's teachings, Nirvana is complete freedom--and nothing short of Nirvana is. There may be "temporary" freedom, but if you just keep coming back to attachment and slavery again, what good is it? It's just a mocking illusion, a counterfeit of freedom, like an oasis in the desert that turns out to be a mirage.
I agree it's better to look back on your life and feel pride than shame, but according to the Buddha, you will come back again: you won't yet be freed from the cycle of birth and death.
For my part, I've experienced an enormous amount of suffering in this life, and I don't think I want to come back and do it again. I understand what the Buddha meant by suffering. I believe him when he says Nirvana is the highest happiness. I know what he means when he says this life is ultimately unsatisfactory.
But we're all where we are on the path for a reason, and as you say, we receive things when we're ready. If you feel in your heart that a sense of pride at the end of this lifetime is the highest goal, well, there are certainly less noble goals that one could strive for!
I'm not sure where the path leads, but I'm okay with walking it because I have directly seen that it leads away from suffering. My practice isn't just for the sake of practice; it's to keep me focused and keep me away from other, more unskillful paths.
I don't feel that pride at the end of my lifetime is my highest goal. I don't prioritize my goals. I work to continue to cultivate skillful seeds. I'm okay with not knowing what will happen to me after this lifetime.
I don't always follow every single word that the Buddha was known to say, but I do love the teachings
I hope that your path leads you to what you strive for! I do believe that Nirvana is possible and hope that you can attain it this lifetime. I just feel that being attached to such an incredible goal might lead to some suffering if you place too much emphasis on it. I try to stick to the Middle Way and avoid attachments. But I think I'm attached to the Middle Way, haha.
I, too, am very attached to this world. There are things I would find it difficult to give up, but none of them compares with the prospect of complete liberation. When I think of reaching a place of total freedom, I feel a joy that I don't think any worldly attachment could match. Whether I will have the courage to take that path is another question--but the longing is definitely there!
For you, though, it may be that in this lifetime, your highest and worthiest goal is to be the best daughter, wife, mother, and grandmother you can be. Again, this is a very noble calling!
Please be very careful here. I am seeing what I fear are red flags in your wording. You speak of freedom from this and that and then speak of how pursuing this freedom can be perceived by others as selfish. You explain/justify this apparent selfishness by pointing to the fact that enlightened beings are of benefit to all beings everywhere.
It's entirely possible I am reading into your words meaning that isn't there at all, but there is a huge, huge, huge trap spiritual seekers often fall into. The trap is that the spiritual quest does not lead one to open to life, but to try to escape from it.
Sometimes people get to a crossroads in their life where they fear the future and rather than face it, they try to escape it. The quest for nirvana can be twisted by Mara. It can be used as a means of escaping from life rather than opening to it.
Again, I am not saying this is true of you, but there is something about the wording you chose that raised a subtle red flag in my mind. Might just all be in my head.
I am seriously considering embarking on the monastic path myself. I believe it to be the most focused of Buddhist paths, allowing for the most dedicated practice. My three experiences at a Buddhist monastery were progressively more rewarding, and I find myself yearning to return again, for a longer period.
Would you share about your experience? I would be very interested to hear your story.
I mean making self-liberation my highest priority in life. Truly embarking on the path to freedom--as opposed to occasionally doing it, or doing it partway, or half-heartedly, or with one foot on the path and one foot in the pleasures of the world.
Something I read this morning really spoke to me: "The one who gives himself up entirely to sense pleasures and does not contemplate gives up the real for the pleasant." (Dhammapada)
This distinction--"the real vs. the pleasant"--illustrates what I'm talking about. I want to trade in the merely pleasant for what's truly real. I want to break out of the illusion I've been caught up in all my life, and awaken that state of total self-liberation which the Buddha spoke of.
This is a noble goal my friend, and approved by the Buddha:
"My teaching does not require anyone to become homeless or resign the world unless he wants to, but it does require everyone to free himself from the illusion that he is a permanent self and to act with integrity while giving up his craving for pleasure. And whatever people do, whether in the world or as a recluse, let them put their whole heart into it." (Majjhima Nikaya)
It's a very good point, because I tend to think of Nirvana as this wonderful thing, but the path to ultimate freedom must contain many challenges, since we must overcome all the obstacles within ourselves along the way.
You have one responsibility only: show yourself great kindness and realize the Buddha within. If you gathered together all the food you ate in all of your past births, it would dwarf even Mt. Everest and yet still you are hungry. All that you drank is a great ocean bigger than the Pacific and still you are thirsty. Similarly , all of your lovers would be a vast multitude, yet still you crave companionship. In short, being in service of your appetites will not bring you anything that lasts but more suffering. Seize the moment and this wholesome aspiration! Make this life count.
All the best and many blessings!
Karma Dorje
To what end?
"We can live with integrity so long as we seek to uncover our emotional blind spots and challenge assumed beliefs and accepted practices. We can trust the integrity of spiritual communities as long as we search for the places we have created institutions that have become corrupted by narrow mindedness and dogmatism or have simply become havens that collude with our pathology."
to end suffering for ourselves and others
I'm not sure exactly what you want to know.What experiences are you asking about?
I will try to give you some idea about me and if there are other questions then feel free to ask.
I "became"a buddhist about 8 years after hearing some talks by HHDL.I found these to be inspiring and logical from my largely agnostic point of view.
I attended some teachings at Tushita and also studied a book called :"Mind in Tibetan Buddhism"
Eventually I started to spent more and more time in Thailand and so started to study the Theravadan way and have stuck with this tradition ever since.
I tried to stick to the 5 precepts as well as I could,not always successfully and slowly started to change my life around.I started to spend a lot of my time in Thailand on meditation retreats,taking 8 precepts and more and more becoming disillusioned with a lot of things in my life in general and so started to better understand the Buddhas first Noble truth of suffering.I had never really believed my life was suffering,not always anyhow.
I worked 4 months a year(suffering)then had 8 months vacation(not suffering)
With metta
If none of those reasons impresses you, then I probably won't be able to make you understand. To me, any one of those reasons would make Nirvana worth devoting a lifetime to. All of them taken together make it such a foregone conclusion that a more appropriate question would probably be why wouldn't one want to seek Nirvana?
For more information about why Nirvana is worth reaching, I recommend you check out the Buddha's teachings: for they contain much wisdom that can help lead you to enlightenment. I wish you success!
Nirvana doesn't lead to suffering. Nirvana is the opposite of suffering, it's complete liberation from all forms of suffering. "There is freedom from desire and sorrow at the end of the way."
It was the Buddha who urged us (countless times!) to realize Nirvana. I'm not making this stuff up. Nirvana isn't my "pet idea": I'm repeating the Buddha's teachings.
If Nirvana were an "incredible goal," then the Buddha would not have repeatedly urged us to realize it. "If it were not feasible, I would not ask you to do it." (Anguttara Nikaya)
If a thing is supremely good, it seems to me that thing should be valued above all else--especially if we have the word of one who has attained it, that it is not beyond our reach.
"Meditate, and in your wisdom realize Nirvana, the highest happiness." (Dhammpada)
Thanks for your kind words, my friend--I wish you success as well!
You are now the second person in this thread who has mixed up the ideas of "freedom" and "escape," implying that I'm talking about the latter. In fact, I don't think I used that word in any of my posts (compared to my using "freedom" many times). So maybe you are reading something that isn't there.
That doesn't mean it's not between the lines, though; and I think you make a good point that there is, indeed, a temptation to "escape." I thank you for mentioning that, because I agree it's a red flag, something to watch out for. I would be lying if I said I didn't sometimes want to "get away" from the madness and delusion I see all around me, and find a place where wisdom is being taught and lived, where I could immerse myself in a dedicated life of purity and self-development, free of distraction.
It seems to me that the quest for Nirvanic realization--a quest to achieve freedom from all things, including fear--can't possibly be a "running away." On the contrary, it must be a facing of everything you've ever feared, and a letting go of your attachment to that fear.
Is it necessary sometimes, along such a path, to withdraw to a solitary place for meditation, reflection, communion with nature? I believe it is. But I would not call such a retreat "running away" or "escaping"--on the contrary, I would call it courageous: facing your inner demons in the silent, naked stillness, rather than taking refuge in a bedlam of noise and distraction and materialism and drugs, drowning our consciousness rather than setting it free.
That's why I have such great respect for monks: they're not "running away," they're facing themselves 24/7. They're the ones doing the hardest work of all, placing self-realization on the very highest shelf of priority where it belongs.
"The one who has entered a solitary place,
whose mind is calm and who sees the way,
to that one comes insight and truth
and rapturous joy transcending any other." (Dhammapada)
I don't know if that clarifies anything, but I do appreciate your words, and I will keep them in mind.
Many thanks, dear friend!
It's true that entering the monastic path is a decision one should not take lightly. When I inquired into the possibility of becoming a monk at a Zen monastery in California, they presented me with several obstacles, surprisingly: hurdles which, according to their rules, must be surmounted before one would be allowed to join the monastery.
On the other hand, many (perhaps even most) of the monks at that monastery joined it when they were just a few years older than you, which is interesting. One might think that people who became monks in their 20s--in the bloom of their youth, with their whole lives ahead of them--might have second thoughts and abandon the monastic life after a few years, but on the contrary: most of those original monks are still there today (now in their 40s, 50s, 60s, etc.)
Whether you become a monk or not, my hope for you is the same hope Karma Dorje expressed for me: that you awaken the Buddha within you. At 19, you have a great "head start," a great opportunity for uncommon growth and progress. Don't let the world derail you from that, my friend!
Preece seems here to be expressing these Buddhist principles:
1) See things as they really are.
2) Take nothing on faith, but test everything.
3) Let go of assumptions and notions.
3) Don't become attached to ideas.
I think you've got the order right too, since we can't really show anyone else the way to freedom from suffering, until we've first freed ourselves.
That's why one person's realization of Nirvana is such a blessing for the world: because by awakening yourself, you make it possible for others whom you touch to awaken as well: a ripple effect occurs, reverberating through the world in a wave of hope.
True, your ability to help others is limited before reaching enlightenment. And those who want to be enlightened for selfish reasons won't achieve it, imo.
Yes; practicing the Noble Eightfold Path.
the eightfold path is the path to nirvana though, so if one understands nirvana then reaching nirvana and following the noble eightfold path are one and the same.
If you look through the Suttas you will see that those Suttas which deal with the Path far outnumber those that deal with Nibbana.
no doubt you must focus on the path, but buddhism is nothing without enlightenment. While there is nothing wrong with buddhists who say that they don't care about enlightenment and they just want to live a life in line with buddhist morals, they are misguided. What separates buddhism with all other religions? Enlightenment. You can live a moral life and build good karma. Noone has to practice buddhism. That being said, the only reason you DO have to practice buddhism is if you want to reach nirvana.
The Noble Eightfold Path was created by the Buddha as a means for us to attain freedom. The Path is in service of Nirvana, not the other way around. Freeing ourselves from suffering is the supreme objective--not how we do it.
To exalt the means above the end because you fear to lose sight of the means seems backward to me. The means is the raft which takes you to the far shore. Once you reach the far shore, you discard the raft.
I don't think being aware of why you're on the Path causes you to lose sight of it. I can't imagine anyone veering off the Path because they understood why they were on it. If anything, knowing where you're going helps you.
But I'm open to a dialogue about it, if you (or someone else) would like to offer support for the view that the Path is indeed more important than where it leads. I'm not "attached" to the idea that Nirvana is our supreme objective--it just seems clear to me that it is, based on what I've read of the Buddha's teachings thus far.
Agreed. While I acknowledge that Nibbana is part of the Teachings and that it is the ultimate goal, the point I was trying to make was that if we want to reach that goal then the Eightfold Path should be our primary focus.
Okay, we believe that Nibbana is achievable, now what?
Perhaps I could have made this a bit more clear in my last post.
You're right. I didn't mean what I said to be taken that way. I could probably have worded my sentence a bit better. More accurately:
The PRACTICE is about the Path, not the destination.
In other words, focus on the Path and the destination will take care of itself.
Take for instance my coming to Malaysia.The monastary here in Lunas was my destination,but to get here first I had to fly to Bangkok,then I needed to take a train to Butterworth after that I needed to get a taxi to Lunas.Without these things the destination would not have been realized.
So it is a step at a time.
Remember the saying" A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step"
Venerable Dr. Walpola Rahula explains the concept of Nirvana as
..The only reasonable reply is that it can never be answered completely and satisfactorily in words, because human language is too poor to express the real nature of the Absolute Truth or Ultimate Reality which is Nirvana. Language is created and used by masses of human beings to express things and ideas experienced by their sense organs and their mind. A supramundane experience like that of the Absolute Truth is not of such a category. Words are symbols representing things and ideas known to us; and these symbols do not and cannot convey the true nature of even ordinary things. Language is considered deceptive and misleading in the matter of understanding of the Truth. So the Lankavatara-sutra says that ignorant people get stuck in words like an elephant in the mud. Nevertheless, we cannot do without language.
It is incorrect to think that Nirvana is the natural result of the extinction of craving. Nirvana is not the result of anything. If it would be a result, then it would be an effect produced by a cause. It would be ‘produced’ and ‘conditioned’. Nirvana is neither cause nor effect. It is not produced like a mystic, spiritual, mental state, such as dhyana or samadhi.
People often ask: What is there after Nirvana? This question cannot arise, because Nirvana is the Ultimate Truth. If it is Ultimate there can be nothing after it. If there is anything after Nirvana, then that will be the Ultimate Truth and not Nirvana.
He who has realized Truth, Nirvana, is the happiest being in the world. He is free from all ‘complexes’ and obsessions, the worries and troubles that torment others. His mental health is perfect. He does not repent the past, nor does he brood over the future. He lives fully in the present. Therefore he appreciates and enjoys things in the purest sense without self-projections. He is joyful, exultant, enjoying the pure life, his faculties pleased, free from anxiety, serene and peaceful.
As he is free from selfish desire, hatred, ignorance, conceit, pride, and all such ‘defilements’, he is pure and gentle, full of universal love, compassion, kindness, sympathy, understanding and tolerance. His service to others is of the purest, for he has no thought of self. He gains nothing, accumulated nothing, because he is free from the illusion of self and the ‘thirst’ of becoming.
This freedom from the illusion of self would seem to be a negation of the desire to achieve the state of nirvana and all other selfish cravings.
Nirvana can only be explained to the 'unenlightened' by negation. Thus the Buddha tries to explain this deep concept to one of his disciples. He asks whether the fire, when it is extinguished, can be said to have gone north, south, east, or west. Nirvana, however, cannot be described as existing, not existing, both existing and not, or neither existing nor not.
We are all misguided - otherwise we wouldn't have the desire to unshoulder this samsaric burden once being fortunate enough to hear and/or practice dharma. The real, worthwhile acheivement is being in the present through this practice with a foot in samsara and a toe in nirvana understanding there is no understanding......
That was the point I was trying to make, but you said it way better.
Well said Cloud, well said.
Being kind.
Is reaching nirvana possible without being kind?
I don't think so, but, personally, I think it's more important to try and be kind than to seek Nirvana.
"My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness." His Holiness the Dalai Lama
I do have more questions for you, if you don't mind. But since they are not necessarily relevant to the topic of this thread, perhaps I could ask them via private message?
With metta
...having said this, I think we should still try our best to practice the Noble Eightfold Path, who knows, maybe the conditions are right for Enlightenment within this lifetime. I don't know.