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Is there anything more important than reaching Nirvana?

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Comments

  • edited October 2010
    Venerable Dr. Walpola Rahula explains the concept of Nirvana as

    ..The only reasonable reply is that it can never be answered completely and satisfactorily in words, because human language is too poor to express the real nature of the Absolute Truth or Ultimate Reality which is Nirvana. Language is created and used by masses of human beings to express things and ideas experienced by their sense organs and their mind. A supramundane experience like that of the Absolute Truth is not of such a category. Words are symbols representing things and ideas known to us; and these symbols do not and cannot convey the true nature of even ordinary things. Language is considered deceptive and misleading in the matter of understanding of the Truth. So the Lankavatara-sutra says that ignorant people get stuck in words like an elephant in the mud. Nevertheless, we cannot do without language.

    It is incorrect to think that Nirvana is the natural result of the extinction of craving. Nirvana is not the result of anything. If it would be a result, then it would be an effect produced by a cause. It would be ‘produced’ and ‘conditioned’. Nirvana is neither cause nor effect. It is not produced like a mystic, spiritual, mental state, such as dhyana or samadhi.

    People often ask: What is there after Nirvana? This question cannot arise, because Nirvana is the Ultimate Truth. If it is Ultimate there can be nothing after it. If there is anything after Nirvana, then that will be the Ultimate Truth and not Nirvana.

    He who has realized Truth, Nirvana, is the happiest being in the world. He is free from all ‘complexes’ and obsessions, the worries and troubles that torment others. His mental health is perfect. He does not repent the past, nor does he brood over the future. He lives fully in the present. Therefore he appreciates and enjoys things in the purest sense without self-projections. He is joyful, exultant, enjoying the pure life, his faculties pleased, free from anxiety, serene and peaceful.

    As he is free from selfish desire, hatred, ignorance, conceit, pride, and all such ‘defilements’, he is pure and gentle, full of universal love, compassion, kindness, sympathy, understanding and tolerance. His service to others is of the purest, for he has no thought of self. He gains nothing, accumulated nothing, because he is free from the illusion of self and the ‘thirst’ of becoming.

    This freedom from the illusion of self would seem to be a negation of the desire to achieve the state of nirvana and all other selfish cravings.

    Nirvana can only be explained to the 'unenlightened' by negation. Thus the Buddha tries to explain this deep concept to one of his disciples. He asks whether the fire, when it is extinguished, can be said to have gone north, south, east, or west. Nirvana, however, cannot be described as existing, not existing, both existing and not, or neither existing nor not.

    We are all misguided - otherwise we wouldn't have the desire to unshoulder this samsaric burden once being fortunate enough to hear and/or practice dharma. The real, worthwhile acheivement is being in the present through this practice with a foot in samsara and a toe in nirvana understanding there is no understanding......
    This is very interesting, thank you for posting it!
  • edited October 2010
    GuyC wrote: »
    Perhaps our sila/samadhi/panna isn't at a level yet where we can reach full Enlightenment in this lifetime? Maybe there are circumstances we have to live with which prevent us from developing the Path factors?
    I do understand what you're saying. I think the reason I'm hesitate to embrace this thinking, though, is because it seems to lean closer to a "can't do" mentality than a "can do" mentality, and our intention has a significant influence on our destiny. "With our thoughts we make the world; all that we are arises with our thoughts." (Dhammapada)

    After all: if the Buddha 1) urged us to realize complete freedom; and 2) taught us exactly how to realize it; then doesn't that imply that it's within the reach of anyone in the lifetime in which they're hearing it?

    Otherwise, it's like the Buddha saying "in the future, you might be able to reach Nirvana." But such thinking does not seem to match the spirit of his teaching, for he was all about seizing the present moment. "Forget the future," he said. "I will teach you that which is now." (Majjhima Nikaya)
    ...having said this, I think we should still try our best to practice the Noble Eightfold Path, who knows, maybe the conditions are right for Enlightenment within this lifetime.
    I agree wholeheartedly, and I believe this is probably the best mindset to have.
  • edited October 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    learn to live freely within your chosen way, and you will find that Nirvana meets you in the middle.
    What do you mean by this?
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    That we walk the path to reach the goal.
  • edited October 2010
    unsui wrote: »
    personally, I think it's more important to try and be kind than to seek Nirvana.
    Kindness is definitely one of the principle Buddhist virtues, and I wouldn't dissuade anyone from the practice of it; so if you believe kindness is the most important thing in life, then by all means, practice it with all your heart!

    One of my favorite of the Buddha's sayings shows how highly he regarded lovingkindness:

    "Of all the ways you can think of, none has a sixteenth-part of the value of lovingkindness. Lovingkindness is a freedom of the heart which takes in all the ways. It is luminous, shining, blazing forth. Just as the stars have not a sixteenth-part of the moon's brilliance, which absorbs them all in its shining light, so lovingkindness absorbs all the other ways with its lustrous splendor. Just as when the rainy season ends and the sun rises up into the clear and cloudless sky, banishing all the dark in its radiant light, and just as at the end of a black night the morning star shines out in glory, so none of the ways you can use to further your spiritual progress has a sixteenth-part of the value of lovingkindness. For it absorbs them all, its luminosity shining forth." (Itivuttaka Sutta)
  • edited October 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    That we walk the path to reach the goal.
    I agree! Thanks for clarifying.
  • edited October 2010
    The answer, is usually within the question.
  • edited October 2010
    Truker wrote: »
    The answer, is usually within the question.

    Oh oh oh! analytical a priori questions!

    :D amidoinitrite?

    kant-3.jpg
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I ask you all: can anyone here think of anything that is more important in this lifetime than reaching Nirvana? Is there any higher or worthier or greater goal? Any achievement that surpasses that?

    There is nothing higher, nothing that even comes close. It is 10,000 miles above all other things. It is the goal of all goals, the supreme goal. The Buddha himself left his palace with this goal in mind and practiced relentlessly until he achieved this goal. Aspiring to achieve this goal, I have found, it what creates and supports "right effort".
  • edited October 2010
    zendo wrote: »
    Kindness is definitely one of the principle Buddhist virtues, and I wouldn't dissuade anyone from the practice of it; so if you believe kindness is the most important thing in life, then by all means, practice it with all your heart!

    One of my favorite of the Buddha's sayings shows how highly he regarded lovingkindness:

    "Of all the ways you can think of, none has a sixteenth-part of the value of lovingkindness. Lovingkindness is a freedom of the heart which takes in all the ways. It is luminous, shining, blazing forth. Just as the stars have not a sixteenth-part of the moon's brilliance, which absorbs them all in its shining light, so lovingkindness absorbs all the other ways with its lustrous splendor. Just as when the rainy season ends and the sun rises up into the clear and cloudless sky, banishing all the dark in its radiant light, and just as at the end of a black night the morning star shines out in glory, so none of the ways you can use to further your spiritual progress has a sixteenth-part of the value of lovingkindness. For it absorbs them all, its luminosity shining forth." (Itivuttaka Sutta)

    Loving kindness is universal for most religions. The hard part is getting someone with a veil of darkness over their eyes to see it.
  • edited October 2010
    What a great thread to start Zendo.

    Mate i agree with the sentiments that encourage you to follow your heart and its fiery transcendental aspirations. Such desires for freedom are the basis for all attainments and only arises in those who are wise!

    I have no doubt that path knowledge (Realization of Nibbana) is attainable in this very life for one who couples skillful means with effort.

    Good Luck Dhamma friend

    With Metta
  • edited October 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    There is nothing higher, nothing that even comes close. It is 10,000 miles above all other things. It is the goal of all goals, the supreme goal. The Buddha himself left his palace with this goal in mind and practiced relentlessly until he achieved this goal. Aspiring to achieve this goal, I have found, it what creates and supports "right effort".
    This is my understanding as well friend, thank you for your encouraging confirmation.
  • edited October 2010
    Viriya wrote: »
    What a great thread to start Zendo.

    Mate i agree with the sentiments that encourage you to follow your heart and its fiery transcendental aspirations. Such desires for freedom are the basis for all attainments and only arises in those who are wise!

    I have no doubt that path knowledge (Realization of Nibbana) is attainable in this very life for one who couples skillful means with effort.

    Good Luck Dhamma friend

    With Metta
    Thank you for this encouragement, Viriya. Reading such a post is like meeting a friend and fellow traveler upon a long stretch of lonely road, when one is in doubt about the journey.

    For there are many views in the Buddhist world--indeed, there are many worlds, since each of us lives in our own world, and no two worlds are alike. Thus, while we all align ourselves with Buddhism in some way, our views (even on fundamental issues like Nirvana) often diverge widely, and points that may seem self-evident, like the importance of the quest for Nirvana, come under a cloud of doubt.

    But each person has something important to contribute, and I am grateful to everyone who has shared their thoughts in this thread, whether they agree with me or not.
  • edited October 2010
    In my humble opinion, reaching Nirvana is not the most important matter. What is more important is that we uphold the five precepts, practice meditation and generosity.

    Why this three ?
    Because this three augments our merits and the parami which are important factors that leads us to Buddhism and ultimately enlightenment and nirvana.

    Why merits ?
    Merits are important in our life.
    Life is possible because of merit.
    Wealth is possible because of merit.
    Health is possible because of merit.
    Knowing the Dhamma is possible because of merit.
    Practicing meditation is possible because of merit.
    Having good friends is possible because of merit.
    Meeting the Buddha and becoming enlightened is possible also because of merit.
    Merit is our friend demerit is our foe which causes the opposite of the aforementioned matters that are caused by merit such as being lame, sick.

    Why Parami ?
    Parami is one factor that determines our character and our actions. Parami affects our thinking, our actions and our words. Merits are different from Parami as an enlightened one as surpassed both merit and demerit.

    An extract:
    The Ten Pāramis
    Thus when Buddha stated that he would teach any intelligent man, without guile, a non-deceiver, and
    upright, the implication is that even to attain an ordinary good life an individual must possess inner
    resources. The inner resources accumulated and assimilated in numberless past existences, called pārami. Of which ten are basic.
    Namely:
    (1) Dāna (Charity)
    (2) Sīla (Morality)
    (3) Nekkhamma (Renunciation)
    (4) Paññā (Wisdom)
    (5) Viriya (Energy)
    (6) Khanti (Fortitude)
    (7) Sacca (Truth)
    (8) AdhitLtLhāna (Earnest Resolve)
    (9) Mettā (Compassionate love)
    (10) Upekkhā (Equanimity)
    Without these resources at one's command it would be futile to try, for they are the very qualities, in fact, which make a man intelligent, without guile, a non-deceiver, and upright
    The purpose of being born is to accumulate merits and parami so that in our future life when our quota of parami have been fulfilled and merits are available these merits and parami( which characterizes our actions) will 'bring' us to enlightenment.


    Here are some situations which could be considered.

    Situation one:
    If you're sick because of demerits how are you going to practice meditation to achieve Nirvana ?
    Situation two:
    If you're ignorant of the Dhamma, you will not know how to meditate correct and how is achieving Nirvana possible ?



    Imagine a life without merit. Being sick, lame, not knowing the Dhamma, it is impossible to attain Nirvana or even any kind of enlightenment.

    This is just my view on this subject and I hope my post doesn't offend anyone.
    Please too share your views :_)

    Good day to all.
  • edited October 2010
    exonesion wrote: »
    The purpose of being born is to accumulate merits and parami so that in our future life when our quota of parami have been fulfilled and merits are available these merits and parami( which characterizes our actions) will 'bring' us to enlightenment.
    This is not my understanding of the Buddha's teaching, but if you can point me to a sutra where the Buddha does teach this, I will check it out.

    According to what I've read of the Buddha's teaching, he doesn't recommend storing up treasure for future lives. On the contrary, he teaches us the way to avoid being reborn, i.e. how to achieve ultimate freedom from suffering, aka Nirvana.

    But my study of the sutras is far from complete, so please let me know where you found this teaching, and I will look into it.
  • edited October 2010
    zendo wrote: »
    This is not my understanding of the Buddha's teaching, but if you can point me to a sutra where the Buddha does teach this, I will check it out.

    According to what I've read of the Buddha's teaching, he doesn't recommend storing up treasure for future lives. On the contrary, he teaches us the way to avoid being reborn, i.e. how to achieve ultimate freedom from suffering, aka Nirvana.

    But my study of the sutras is far from complete, so please let me know where you found this teaching, and I will look into it.

    The rewards of merit:AN 8.39
    As stated in that sutta:
    "There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has gone to the Buddha for refuge. This is the first reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness.
    "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones has gone to the Dhamma for refuge. This is the second reward of merit...
    "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones has gone to the Sangha for refuge. This is the third reward of merit...
    Without merit how could those people could have knew and met Buddhism in the first place ?
    Without merit they will not take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

    In the Khuddaka Nikaya:
    There is one portion stating the importance of merit:
    A person stashes a fund( it means merits here) away, deep underground, at the water line: "When a need or duty arises, this will provide for my needs, for my release if I'm denounced by the king, molested by thieves, in case of debt, famine, or accidents." With aims like this in the world a reserve fund is stashed away. But no matter how well it's stored, deep underground, at the water line, it won't all always serve one's need. The fund gets shifted from its place, or one's memory gets confused; or — unseen — water serpents make off with it, spirits steal it, or hateful heirs run off with it. When one's merit's ended, it's totally destroyed. But when a man or woman has laid aside a well-stored fund of giving, virtue, restraint, & self-control, with regard to a shrine, the Sangha, a fine individual, guests, mother, father, or elder sibling: That's a well-stored fund. It can't be wrested away. It follows you along. When, having left this world, for wherever you must go, you take it with you. This fund is not held in common with others, & cannot be stolen by thieves. So, prudent, you should make merit, the fund that will follow you along. This is the fund that gives all they want to beings human, divine. Whatever devas aspire to, all that is gained by this. A fine complexion, fine voice, a body well-built, well-formed, lordship, a following: all that is gained by this. Earthly kingship, supremacy, the bliss of an emperor, kingship over devas in the heavens: all that is gained by this. The attainment of the human state, any delight in heaven, the attainment of Unbinding: all that is gained by this. Excellent friends, appropriate application, mastery of clear knowing & release: all that is gained by this. Acumen, emancipations, the perfection of disciplehood: all that is gained by this. Private Awakening, Buddhahood: all that is gained by this. So powerful is this, the accomplishment of merit. Thus the wise, the prudent, praise the fund of merit already made.


    Paramita: (Two sources I can find:)
    First source (Wikipedia)
    Traditional practice

    Bodhi (2005) maintains that, in the earliest Buddhist texts (which he identifies as the first four nikāyas), those seeking the extinction of suffering (nibbana) pursued the noble eightfold path. As time went on, a backstory was provided for the multi-life development of the Buddha; as a result, the ten perfections were identified as part of the path for the bodhisattva (Pāli: bodhisatta). Over subsequent centuries, the pāramīs were seen as being significant to aspirants of both Buddhahood and of arahantship. Thus, Bodhi (2005) summarizes:
    <dl><dd>It should be noted that in established Theravāda tradition the pāramīs are not regarded as a discipline peculiar to candidates for Buddhahood alone but as practices which must be fulfilled by all aspirants to enlightenment and deliverance, whether as Buddhas, paccekabuddhas, or disciples. What distinguishes the supreme bodhisattva from aspirants in the other two vehicles is the degree to which the pāramīs must be cultivated and the length of time they must be pursued. But the qualities themselves are universal requisites for deliverance, which all must fulfill to at least a minimal degree to merit the fruits of the liberating path.</dd></dl>


    Second source: Vistas, the E-book in my signature.
    Now it should also be understood that although many may aspire to the ideal of a Bodhisatta, they
    cannot be recognised as such until they have accumulated a vast amount of preparatory pārami (as
    given in Appendix Five of Sammā Samādhi II), after which they must be accepted and predicted as
    such by a Buddha of that period wherein the vow is verbally made. Only then are they classed as
    fully-fledged Bodhisattas whose vows possess the certainty of fulfilment. There are some who
    originally started to build the pāramis, but later, after still having a further term to serve, renounced
    their vows (because of the vast amount of time and effort involved) to become ordinary Arahattas.
    Thus, although in theory anyone may aspire to be an All-Enlightened Buddha, the matter is not so
    feasible in actual practice, because of the vast amount of resources and ability necessary to support the
    vow so as to fruition in actualized reality. We do not say that men should not aspire, and lack of
    resources does not make aspirations null and void, because even if All-Enlightened Buddhahood is a
    protracted affair, even an ordinary man possesses the capacity to influence his fellows, no matter in
    how limited a sphere. It must be understood, however, that the sphere of influence of any given
    personality depends upon his own spiritual weight, which like a stone thrown into a lake causes
    concentric ripples to expand under the impact, to an extent in proportion with the gravitational
    weightiness of the stone itself.
    What is more, the pāramis are never on any account rendered extinct with the attainment of the
    Nibbanic plane. It is the weight of the pāramis which fulfil aspirations and make the attainment of
    release possible at all, whether for self or a multitude. We must not confuse merit (puñña) with
    perfection (pārami), because one who has attained to Arahattaship or Buddhahood has nothing further
    to do with puñña, having passed beyond, but pārami is a thing of essence and is a Buddha's and
    Arahatta's actual being, something without which he can neither exist or act as a Buddha or Arahatta.
    Any action (or non-action) of a perfect one is only an external manifestation of his internal resources
    called pārami, and distinguishes him as such...
    Regarding the building of pāramī (perfect qualities of consciousness), it may be said that it is not only
    a means to an end (Nibbāna) but, in a certain sense, an end in itself. That is to say, it is the process of
    gravitating perfect qualities of consciousness into a specific field, and thereby personified. The
    Dhammakāya, of which so much has already been said, is in form and essence the personification of
    these pāramīs gravitated into a specific field. Insofar as an individual can ever be said to endure at all
    from existence to existence, he can be said to do so only to the extent that his pāramīs are preserved
    intact. For it is not the personality which at a particular moment prevails that insures ultimate identity,
    but only these pāramīs, and it is only as such that he can be said to have any ultimate importance at
    all. The struggle to build pāramī is the process of acquiring such ultimate identity as is possible
    (Dhammakāya), or else all that results is mere meaningless nonentity (anatta). Thus, the individual
    field-of-consciousness, sphere of influence, and attainment of final release, is inextricably bound up
    with the extent of pāramī completed and fulfilled, and nothing less.
    Now to attain to the position of a great disciple (Mahā Sāvaka) necessitates the accomplishment of a
    pāramī extent covering 100,000 kalpas (world cycles or aeons of time). The attainment of chief
    discipleship (Akka Sāvaka) entails the accomplishment of a pāramī extent covering 1 Asankheyya (of
    the order of 1 x 10140 kalpas) and 100,000 kalpas. Whereas the attainment of Solitary (Pacceka)
    Buddhahood entails a pāramī extent covering 2 Asankheyya and 100,000 kalpas.
    As for All-Enlightened (Sabbaññu) Buddhas, there are three categories. The first category (to which
    the present Buddha Gotama belongs) attains its pāramī through the Wisdom (Paññā) approach. The
    second category attains its pāramī through the Faith (Saddhā) approach. Whereas the third category
    (to whom the next Buddha Metteyya belongs) attains its pāramī through the Effort (Viriya) approach.
    Now the first category (Paññā) of Buddha has a pāramī extent covering 4 Asankheyya and 100,000
    kalpas. The second category (Saddhā) of Buddha has a pāramī extent covering 8 Asankheyya and
    100,000 kalpas. Whereas the third category (Viriya) of Buddha has a pāramī extent covering 16
    Asankheyya and 100,000 kalpas.
    There are more sources out there somewhere.
    Please have a read :)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    exonesion wrote: »
    Without merit how could those people could have knew and met Buddhism in the first place ?
    Without merit they will not take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
    Hmm.
  • edited October 2010
    exenesion, the problem is that you made it seem like in your first post that we shouldn't worry about enlightenment in this life cuz all we can hope for is to build merit so we can get enlightened in a future lifetime. I agree that our receptiveness to the buddha's teaching is largely based on our merit, though.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I would think that our receptiveness to the Buddha's teaching is largely based on the amount of suffering we've experienced in this life, and our inability to find comfort in other religions or beliefs. Our progress is where merit would facilitate understanding or leave us frustrated.
  • edited November 2010
    exonesion wrote: »
    Please have a read :)
    Thank you for posting these passages, exonesion: I will check them out.
  • edited November 2010
    Merit can be properly understood as the accumulation of positive karmic force. It is associated with constructive action in numerous past lives and has ripened into not only our transitory happiness, but also this very precious human rebirth in a universe in which a Buddha has emanated a nirmanakaya, in which the teachings of Dharma still remain, and where like-minded members of the Sangha can yet congregate.

    We would do well not to squander this rare opportunity and realize enlightenment ourselves for the sake of all beings.
  • edited November 2010
    enlightenment exists in all religions/ways of life, known by many names, some paths may differ, yet the end is all the same
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited November 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    exenesion, the problem is that you made it seem like in your first post that we shouldn't worry about enlightenment in this life cuz all we can hope for is to build merit so we can get enlightened in a future lifetime. I agree that our receptiveness to the buddha's teaching is largely based on our merit, though.

    Well, don't forget that for most of Buddhism's history and in many cultures today, enlightenment is left to the monks, and lay people settle for building merit. A mother raising children and a father struggling to feed his family aren't expected to be able to devote all their energy and time to achieving enlightenment. Can you blame them?
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    rifraf2 wrote: »
    enlightenment exists in all religions/ways of life, known by many names, some paths may differ, yet the end is all the same
    If you're referring to a generalized form or definition of enlightenment then such a statement could be true in a sense, but not in the Buddhist sense which refers to the specific state of mind or transformative process that culminates in Nirvana. This particular goal or state of full self-liberation has no equivalent teachings in other forms of religion, science or philosophy and remains a path that has only been expressed by the various forms/schools of Buddhism.
  • edited November 2010
    My 2 cents-worth: working to make the world a better place and to alleviate suffering might be more important. But then...an Enlightened Being could accomplish so much more in that regard. So we should strive for Enlightenment first. It seems a bit selfish at first, but if we strive for that with the thought in mind that we're doing it for the benefit of all sentient beings, then it altruistic.
  • conradcookconradcook Veteran
    edited November 2010
    This is an interesting question, Zendo, and one I found myself asking a little while ago.

    A related question that a Zen Master asked me was: "Let's say you become enlightened. What then?"

    Buddha bless,

    Conrad.
  • edited November 2010
    Jack Kornfield famously said once: "First Enlightenment, then the laundry."
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