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I'm not a tantric practitioner, and for that not to be clear, by my post then I guess we are both misunderstood. I don't follow anyone school for the simple reason that it seems far and beyond pointlessness. Plus I don't use a mast head for people to easily be able to stigmatize me, based on what is know about one tradition or another. All I can say for sure is that I am a practicing Buddhist. I am not here to insult anyone nor to assume anything, if I have I apologize, and for any obvious misunderstanding on my part I am sorry. This thread was never started for this purpose, I thought there was a clear laid out answer to my question and not a theological debate, that is still unanswerable. I have read the entire thread multiple times, but maybe I am missing what is truly being sad, and for this I again apologize. Maybe in my youth as a Buddhist I made an ultimate mistake in attempting to undertake a lofting topic as this as my first real question, and for this again I apologize. I hope no one lost sleep or meditation time over this heated topic, but I wish for all beings to be well, happy, and peaceful.
I don't see no one angry, so calm down hahaha I'm to harsh with words sometimes, I don't know how to pick them it seems :P
I assumed you were a tantric practitioner when you spoke about "higher mantras".
Karmadorje's answer is pretty good, I've had the same experience.
I am not trying to sound upset, but I am. This is one of the big things that I do not like about other religions, this is not to say the reason for my Buddhist practicing, but I wish that these things were not so heavily thought of. I understand respect and I understand importance. My Buddha is important to my practice, but I do not keep him locked away for the simple reason that I hope the same reason that I have him others will see him too. He is the ultimate teacher, to me, and no more. I respect him for his amazing journey and for his guidance, but I don't put such importance on the representation because if my Buddha were to fall of my alter and crash into the ground his head busting into a million pieces I don't want to have hurt feelings about it. Rather I will pick up the pieces in the moment, and lay them with respect into the trash can. Replacing his form with another. If these is wrong then I am wrong and I will not be joining you on the long path. Sadly this will be something I will deal with in time. I think the hardest thing for all of us, is there is no set answer to most questions in Buddhism. If someone can refer me to the ultimate book then I will read it this second. So again after probably another unintentionally hurt sounding message I bid you well, and peace.
I am not trying to sound upset, but I am. This is one of the big things that I do not like about other religions, this is not to say the reason for my Buddhist practicing, but I wish that these things were not so heavily thought of. I understand respect and I understand importance. My Buddha is important to my practice, but I do not keep him locked away for the simple reason that I hope the same reason that I have him others will see him too. He is the ultimate teacher, to me, and no more. I respect him for his amazing journey and for his guidance, but I don't put such importance on the representation because if my Buddha were to fall of my alter and crash into the ground his head busting into a million pieces I don't want to have hurt feelings about it. Rather I will pick up the pieces in the moment, and lay them with respect into the trash can. Replacing his form with another. If these is wrong then I am wrong and I will not be joining you on the long path. Sadly this will be something I will deal with in time. I think the hardest thing for all of us, is there is no set answer to most questions in Buddhism. If someone can refer me to the ultimate book then I will read it this second. So again after probably another unintentionally hurt sounding message I bid you well, and peace.
Well, I think that everyone here would do the same... pick up the pieces and throw them to the trash. I don't see contradiction of this with what I have said. I honestly think you should reflect on what I wrote about the Buddha as being a representation of your inner nature and about the idea of interdependence. Then again, Karmadorje's answer was pretty good.
Now, then again... you are practicing with mantras... are they from the Vajrayana tradition? Who gave you the transmission then? I don't get it, you say you practice mantras, but are not a tantric practitioner. Then are you from the Theravada tradition? I've heard that they also have some kind of mantras... anyways, you should ask this kind of specific question from your teacher.
There is no problem at all with you having your own approach. We are all contributing merely our points of view from several different traditions. The only point of dissension here is that you disagree that we should hold such ideas about statues and malas. If I hold that the image of Guru Rinpoche on my altar is his actual presence, nothing is to stop you from regarding it merely as symbol. This is what works for me; what I have been taught in my tradition. We don't need One True Approach. The Dharma is vast enough to accomodate all of us: Theravadin and Mahayanist, monk and householder, gradualist and instantaneist.
Have confidence in what insight you have gathered, but keep keen curiosity and an attitude of love and respect towards the spiritual life of others and you can't go wrong.
There is no problem at all with you having your own approach. We are all contributing merely our points of view from several different traditions. The only point of dissension here is that you disagree that we should hold such ideas about statues and malas. If I hold that the image of Guru Rinpoche on my altar is his actual presence, nothing is to stop you from regarding it merely as symbol. This is what works for me; what I have been taught in my tradition. We don't need One True Approach. The Dharma is vast enough to accomodate all of us: Theravadin and Mahayanist, monk and householder, gradualist and instantaneist.
Have confidence in what insight you have gathered, but keep keen curiosity and an attitude of love and respect towards the spiritual life of others and you can't go wrong.
I think I should learn to answer like this guy hehehe
P.S: There is no possibility for a theological debate here. [polemics]How can we have a debate on a topic that it's object has not even conventional existence? [/polemics]
Well this is my teacher. I sadly unlike most am unable to have or find a teacher. Buddha is my teacher and sadly in the great state of Kentucky there aren't very much call for Buddhist, especially not teachers. Like I said before I am a Buddhist, I do not follow a school, nor am I a floating duck. I have a mala, and a alter. I use Om Mani Pedme Hung as my primary mantra at this time because it is the only one i have learned. I read any book that I can get my hand on whether it's zen, tibetan, therevada, any of them that attempt to speak about Buddhism. Maybe I have too much useless information from this reading, or maybe the conflicting ideas have confused me, but I have tried my best to structure my practice into what I view as gaining enlightenment the quickiest and easiest. With a mala in my hand and my feet towards the sky. I clear my mind and attempt to become one with nirvana. If I am steering into a ditch and have completely misguided myself. Then can someone point me in the direction of where I should be. I need proof not just what works for you. Not to be offensive or mean, but I don't see my nirvana leading through a land of this and that. The differences that I have seen in this one post make me understand the differences in us all. I do apologize for saying things as fact in any of my statements. For me they are what work. I choose not to get hung up on the little things and allow myself to try to understand my reality. I guess i need a teacher more now then I thought.
See I think again I should apologize, with my lack of experience I mistook helpful guidance for defined thoughts. I guess I read what I wanted to read, and that was factual statements. Which in turn upset me and I assumed. I completely understand that everyone is different, as am I. I meant no mean feelings nor hurt words to anyone. I guess I just felt the same ways as I did when I sat at biblical discussions. A lot of people yelling about who's right and wrong. I guess I should have read more consciously, I do apologize for my assumptions. Sorry
Well this is my teacher. I sadly unlike most am unable to have or find a teacher. Buddha is my teacher and sadly in the great state of Kentucky there aren't very much call for Buddhist, especially not teachers. Like I said before I am a Buddhist, I do not follow a school, nor am I a floating duck. I have a mala, and a alter. I use Om Mani Pedme Hung as my primary mantra at this time because it is the only one i have learned. I read any book that I can get my hand on whether it's zen, tibetan, therevada, any of them that attempt to speak about Buddhism. Maybe I have too much useless information from this reading, or maybe the conflicting ideas have confused me, but I have tried my best to structure my practice into what I view as gaining enlightenment the quickiest and easiest. With a mala in my hand and my feet towards the sky. I clear my mind and attempt to become one with nirvana. If I am steering into a ditch and have completely misguided myself. Then can someone point me in the direction of where I should be. I need proof not just what works for you. Not to be offensive or mean, but I don't see my nirvana leading through a land of this and that. The differences that I have seen in this one post make me understand the differences in us all. I do apologize for saying things as fact in any of my statements. For me they are what work. I choose not to get hung up on the little things and allow myself to try to understand my reality. I guess i need a teacher more now then I thought.
Don't get any wrong ideas, I'm not being judgmental, nor I'm upset. Well, my question about teacher was because you are doing mantras, and you are doing the Om Mani Padme Hung... that is from Vajrayana.
And don't worry, it is ok to practice it, even to try to visualize Chenrezig, all the sentient beings, etc. It is important for you to remember the following: The heart and essence of practice is Bodhicitta. For a practice to be virtuous in the beginning you must take refuge in the 3 jewels with Bodhicitta, for it to be virtuous in the middle, then you must practice with Bodhicitta, and for it to be virtuous in the end, then you must dedicate the merit for the benefit of all sentient beings with Bodhicitta. The practice is Bodhicitta, and the practice is not just sitting and doing the mantra
In tantra it is really important to have a teacher... the Guru Yoga is the essence of all realization, is the meaning of the practice :P
Good luck finding a teacher, and I really hope you find one for you. Just remember to be critic always, with everyone... but in the good sense of course.
Thank you, again I am sorry for for I have said. As much as I think I know about Buddhism I guess it is hard to really put into thought/action. I have a hard time with a lot, and I think this made me realize it. I am trying really hard, and I want to do it right. I guess I'm just scared of doing something wrong, that in turn has made me do something wrong. I guess saying something and actually doing it are two different sides. I wish I could devote my life to Buddhism but I feel my plans have made this hard. Again I am sorry for my assumptions. I feel i am to used to my upbringing, and have lost site of the truth. I am actually very glad this happened because it has just made me realize that Buddhist aren't just talkers, they know how to walk as well. Thank you so very much for everything all of you. Teachings come from very different places but of all the places I think so far this conversation has taught me the most. I need this to understand many things.
Thank you, again I am sorry for for I have said. As much as I think I know about Buddhism I guess it is hard to really put into thought/action. I have a hard time with a lot, and I think this made me realize it. I am trying really hard, and I want to do it right. I guess I'm just scared of doing something wrong, that in turn has made me do something wrong. I guess saying something and actually doing it are two different sides. I wish I could devote my life to Buddhism but I feel my plans have made this hard. Again I am sorry for my assumptions. I feel i am to used to my upbringing, and have lost site of the truth. I am actually very glad this happened because it has just made me realize that Buddhist aren't just talkers, they know how to walk as well. Thank you so very much for everything all of you. Teachings come from very different places but of all the places I think so far this conversation has taught me the most. I need this to understand many things.
Don't worry, indeed I feel very identified with what you are telling, the same thing happened to me the first moments. I was so critic of tantric tradition, I started reading by my own about Buddhism, always trying to go to the original source... then I was like really "wrathful" in the "good" sense, but not in a correct way, against the tantric ideas; then when I went to my first Dharma talk given by one of the persons now that I most esteem, I was like asking tons of skeptical questions, so much that he send me to my home with his "Words of my perfect teacher" that just had arrived from Spain (and he didn't even know me!). That night I slept like only 4 hours, I read all the chapters he told me, and then I came back with a notebook with pages full of questions and quotations to the book hahaha mostly criticizing! Then he answered all my questions, each one of them successfully from the skeptical and rational point of view; then he showed me who Nagarjuna was, and spoke me about Prasanghika; then the following days, while studying, I just felt tremendous devotion for these names and for the lineage of my tradition. Since that day I've been practicing in Rime Shedrub Ling and receving teachings from Yongue Khachab Rinpoche who lives in Massachusetts (and as you can see by my profile I live in Chile) but comes one time in the year here
I wanted to tell you about my experience so you don't fell so bad because of having a strong skeptical attitude (at least myself I totally understand it nowadays), and because maybe you will not be able to find a lama near your town... hell, you have my main lama closer than me! Just travel to another state hahaha If I lived in the USA I'd go to every retreat I could with my lama :'D I'd just travel to the other states! I've known of close people that have traveled to the united states just 2 days to receive teachings and then came back! And that's not cheap! hahahaha
I feel that in some ways Buddhism has become less about the product and more about the tools.
The great Zen Master who burned all the sacred sutra books, after ripping them to shreds, who took the Buddha statue from the altar, smashed it against the wall and threw all the tiny pieces in the trash, felt the same.:D
Considering this thread started with an innocent question regarding malas, it has
turned into quite a nice discussion concerning practice and practicing.
I want to thank everyone involved in the discussion. After my meditation last night and waking up this morning I am feeling much better. I'm glad that this post led to so much. Especially on my part, I never foresaw this, but I am thankful.
So if malas are so important, then is it "wrong" to have a wrist mala, since it's more prone to knocks and bumps? Would one not practice with a wrist mala?
So if malas are so important, then is it "wrong" to have a wrist mala, since it's more prone to knocks and bumps? Would one not practice with a wrist mala?
There are different kinds of mala depending on the teacher's instruction and the specific type of practice. Wrist mala I think are more of a western invention, I suppose they are very useful for doing Shamata or simple mantra recitation while on a bus or something like that.
There are different kinds of mala depending on the teacher's instruction and the specific type of practice. Wrist mala I think are more of a western invention, I suppose they are very useful for doing Shamata or simple mantra recitation while on a bus or something like that.
All I would like to add is that in my experience a mala is a tool ... maybe like a precision tool which is often designed/made/ produced/ given to/ for the specific user for a specific purpose.
I want to thank everyone involved in the discussion. After my meditation last night and waking up this morning I am feeling much better. I'm glad that this post led to so much. Especially on my part, I never foresaw this, but I am thankful.
Indeed this was a nurturing discussion; may it be of benefit to others also.
Comments
I assumed you were a tantric practitioner when you spoke about "higher mantras".
Karmadorje's answer is pretty good, I've had the same experience.
Now, then again... you are practicing with mantras... are they from the Vajrayana tradition? Who gave you the transmission then? I don't get it, you say you practice mantras, but are not a tantric practitioner. Then are you from the Theravada tradition? I've heard that they also have some kind of mantras... anyways, you should ask this kind of specific question from your teacher.
There is no problem at all with you having your own approach. We are all contributing merely our points of view from several different traditions. The only point of dissension here is that you disagree that we should hold such ideas about statues and malas. If I hold that the image of Guru Rinpoche on my altar is his actual presence, nothing is to stop you from regarding it merely as symbol. This is what works for me; what I have been taught in my tradition. We don't need One True Approach. The Dharma is vast enough to accomodate all of us: Theravadin and Mahayanist, monk and householder, gradualist and instantaneist.
Have confidence in what insight you have gathered, but keep keen curiosity and an attitude of love and respect towards the spiritual life of others and you can't go wrong.
And don't worry, it is ok to practice it, even to try to visualize Chenrezig, all the sentient beings, etc. It is important for you to remember the following: The heart and essence of practice is Bodhicitta. For a practice to be virtuous in the beginning you must take refuge in the 3 jewels with Bodhicitta, for it to be virtuous in the middle, then you must practice with Bodhicitta, and for it to be virtuous in the end, then you must dedicate the merit for the benefit of all sentient beings with Bodhicitta. The practice is Bodhicitta, and the practice is not just sitting and doing the mantra
In tantra it is really important to have a teacher... the Guru Yoga is the essence of all realization, is the meaning of the practice :P
I strongly recommend you on reading this: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/n.html_135601887.html#spiritual_student
Also this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvP_YzuEuwg
Good luck finding a teacher, and I really hope you find one for you. Just remember to be critic always, with everyone... but in the good sense of course.
I wanted to tell you about my experience so you don't fell so bad because of having a strong skeptical attitude (at least myself I totally understand it nowadays), and because maybe you will not be able to find a lama near your town... hell, you have my main lama closer than me! Just travel to another state hahaha
turned into quite a nice discussion concerning practice and practicing.
My personal thanx to all. ॐ
All I would like to add is that in my experience a mala is a tool ... maybe like a precision tool which is often designed/made/ produced/ given to/ for the specific user for a specific purpose.