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karma cannot exist without a very strong order in the universe, which is the tao in my opinion, karma cannot exist without interconectiveness and synchronicity, the reason the buddha didn't expound on this at length is probably its very hard to explain, and not so important in the day to day world, but basically theres no karma unless something enforces karma and thats the order in the universe, even if its the subatomic order of electrons and quarks, that keeps the universe running IMO
It's just cause and effect, conditioning, the way things are. Yeah it's an "order", but it's the same thing. Dharma, Tao, Suchness, Reality, Thusness. Even students of Ajahn Chah like Jack Kornfield have used "Tao" as a synonym for the underlying reality of which Buddhism speaks, that is the goal we see and understand directly for ourselves. It's all the same thing.
Karma is the cause in cause and effect. The choice in choices and consequences. We change the conditions either within our own minds or the greater-world, and these new conditions either lead to what we call wholesome or unwholesome results (now or in the future). It's much simpler if we don't complicate it.
the difference for me is that i have a personal relationship and pray to "the tao", largely because i was brought up and conditioned to think of the christian god which i rejected, something has to make electrons like going in circles and not very often going off exploring otherwise the whole universe would disintigrate, thats what i revere, not the god of israel etc
Depends on your understanding/view of what "karma" represents, @vinlyn. Karma to me is just cause and effect. Choices and consequences as far as the development of the mind, either toward a state of suffering or of non-suffering. When you get into making karma a force connecting past, present and future lives and attach ownership/self as in a type of reincarnation or re-arising of the same essential "essence" of a person, that's an entirely different thing. Cause and effect though, that is scientific law. And that's karma's true essence in my understanding.
I guess where I would disagree is with the "law aspect". At least from a scientific point of view, a law is that if some action is repeated, the reaction will be the same each time. If we were talking gravity, for example, each time I drop the object, it will fall to earth. The result is predictable.
I don't see karma as being predictable. Yes, every time I take an action there will be a reaction, but what the reaction will be is not predictable. For example, if I punch the next 5 people I meet in the nose, the reactions will vary. One might pray for me. One might forgive me. One might retaliate. One might call the police and press charges. One might get revenge in some other way (perhaps breaking my windshield).
Karma is only a law insofar as causes lead to effects, @vinlyn, and our concern is not with it as a "law" so much, but rather as an observation of how our choices lead to consequences (either wholesome or unwholesome). Karma is just an aspect of cause and effect, a facet of this scientific axiom, that we use to show the relationship between our choices and how the mind changes.
The results are never for sure, but the Buddha through understanding of suffering and its causes taught that certain ways of thinking, speaking and acting lead toward the goal, and others away from it. It's never guaranteed that every "good act" will lead to a good result, but the tendency is yes. The Noble Eightfold Path is a formulation of skillful ways of navigating life that taken together pull the mind toward an awakened state.
Karma is only a law insofar as causes lead to effects, @vinlyn, and our concern is not with it as a "law" so much, but rather as an observation of how our choices lead to consequences (either wholesome or unwholesome). Karma is just an aspect of cause and effect, a facet of this scientific axiom, that we use to show the relationship between our choices and how the mind changes.
The results are never for sure, but the Buddha through understanding of suffering and its causes taught that certain ways of thinking, speaking and acting lead toward the goal, and others away from it. It's never guaranteed that every "good act" will lead to a good result, but the tendency is yes. The Noble Eightfold Path is a formulation of skillful ways of navigating life that taken together pull the mind toward an awakened state.
In explaining it this way, I can agree with you.
I just always try to separate "facts" and "laws" from "belief" and "faith". Science and faith are both valid, but I think the line between them should be carefully drawn. I have great faith in the principle of karma, though I don't think man understands its well.
The Law of Entropy would tend to go against order in the universe.
The theory of entropy is that everything is always proceeding toward a state of greater disorder. Entropy simply says that everything is interrelated. For example it can be seen that if something becomes "hotter" then something became cooler. For instance take the example of the ice cube. If you take an ice cube and put it into a warmer room, the ice cube will melt. But, as it melts, the room becomes slightly cooler. The room has become more organized while the ice cube has become more disorganized, hence gained entropy.
Comments
Karma is the cause in cause and effect. The choice in choices and consequences. We change the conditions either within our own minds or the greater-world, and these new conditions either lead to what we call wholesome or unwholesome results (now or in the future). It's much simpler if we don't complicate it.
I don't see karma as being predictable. Yes, every time I take an action there will be a reaction, but what the reaction will be is not predictable. For example, if I punch the next 5 people I meet in the nose, the reactions will vary. One might pray for me. One might forgive me. One might retaliate. One might call the police and press charges. One might get revenge in some other way (perhaps breaking my windshield).
The results are never for sure, but the Buddha through understanding of suffering and its causes taught that certain ways of thinking, speaking and acting lead toward the goal, and others away from it. It's never guaranteed that every "good act" will lead to a good result, but the tendency is yes. The Noble Eightfold Path is a formulation of skillful ways of navigating life that taken together pull the mind toward an awakened state.
I just always try to separate "facts" and "laws" from "belief" and "faith". Science and faith are both valid, but I think the line between them should be carefully drawn. I have great faith in the principle of karma, though I don't think man understands its well.
The theory of entropy is that everything is always proceeding toward a state of greater disorder. Entropy simply says that everything is interrelated. For example it can be seen that if something becomes "hotter" then something became cooler. For instance take the example of the ice cube. If you take an ice cube and put it into a warmer room, the ice cube will melt. But, as it melts, the room becomes slightly cooler. The room has become more organized while the ice cube has become more disorganized, hence gained entropy.
MEtta to all sentient beings