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The Disciple-Teacher Relatioship: how to get it right? What to do if it goes wrong?
compassionate_warrior
Veteran
After reading some controversial posts on this website describing things gone gravely wrong in lamas' relationship to their students, I'd like to get an understanding of how the guru-chela relationship is supposed to work. As one contributor wrote, Western students think the guru is to be obeyed in every instance, because he's a "living Buddha" and the embodiment of "Truth", a guide to enlightenment with the student's best interests at heart. This, apparently, is what (some?) teachers tell their students. This seems like a situation ripe for abuse, if a teacher is out of his integrity. Someone on a thread on this website with clearly much experience commented that this "your wish is my command" attitude on the part of the student is a misunderstanding of how the teacher is to be regarded, and that some teachers exploit that misconception, or perhaps deliberately create a misunderstanding for their own personal ends. I have no experience as a direct student of a teacher, so I'd like to learn about how the guru-chela relationship is to be correctly understood.
As sangha members, what is our obligation to insure the appropriate, respectful behavior of our teachers toward all members of the sangha, and to see that the principles of a proper student-teacher relationship are followed? What is our obligation to our fellow sangha-members who might experience inappropriate behavior of any sort from the revered teacher? Who in the dharma center, if anyone, is responsible for oversight of the teacher's behavior? Does "right speech" or refraining from "harsh speech" mean "laissez-faire"; we close our eyes to unpleasant realities that may be taking place in our own dharma community? As compassionate beings, what is our moral obligation in a situation that threatens to impugn a teacher who is outwardly highly reputable, but who covertly may be causing suffering on the part of one or more members of the sangha? I can't help but wonder if sanghas need to have a policy on sexual harassment, and educate newly-arrived teachers on that policy. Should that be a stated part of the guru-chela relationship?
As sangha members, what is our obligation to insure the appropriate, respectful behavior of our teachers toward all members of the sangha, and to see that the principles of a proper student-teacher relationship are followed? What is our obligation to our fellow sangha-members who might experience inappropriate behavior of any sort from the revered teacher? Who in the dharma center, if anyone, is responsible for oversight of the teacher's behavior? Does "right speech" or refraining from "harsh speech" mean "laissez-faire"; we close our eyes to unpleasant realities that may be taking place in our own dharma community? As compassionate beings, what is our moral obligation in a situation that threatens to impugn a teacher who is outwardly highly reputable, but who covertly may be causing suffering on the part of one or more members of the sangha? I can't help but wonder if sanghas need to have a policy on sexual harassment, and educate newly-arrived teachers on that policy. Should that be a stated part of the guru-chela relationship?
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50 Verses on Guru Devotion by Ashvaghosha
The Teacher-Student Relationship by Jamgon Kongfrul Lodro Taye
If one can't take responsibility for one's own actions then one probably shouldn't be practicing any spiritual path at all let alone vajrayana, but that is just my own personal belief. There are plenty of Stuart Smalley New Age support groups that one can hold hands with and sing Kumbaya.
People need to really investigate their teachers *before* they take teachings with them. Traditionally that might mean years of observation. By that point you will know what they are made of and how they treat others. Most Westerners want their religion like they want their food: fast, uniform and with way too much salt.
My root guru was a Westerner and a celibate monk that conducted himself according to the highest ethical code of anyone I know. The same can be said of my refuge lama Penor Rinpoche. While most of my experience has been with monks, I personally have no problem with a householder lama having partners, the same as any other householder. I expect that we are all big boys and girls and can look after our own decisions when it comes to partners. Sex is no big deal, unless children are involved.
Once you are in the guru-student relationship, it is up to you how you follow that teacher. My own teacher said that the idea that the student must do what the teacher commands only applies to spiritual matters and then only in accord with the principles of Dharma. However, I trusted my guru implicitly and if he had told me to jump off a cliff like Tilopa told Naropa I would have done it without flinching (much :-) ). That trust is something that grows with time. There is no formula for this.
I've noticed that some sanghas may invite a teacher for a 6-month residency to teach a specific text or course of texts. In that type of situation, there's no opp'ty to check a teacher out. If whoever invited him gives him an strong endorsement, everyone is usually enthusiastic. (Granted, this would not be a candidate for root guru, just a temporary arrangement.) I was in a sangha like this once, though, where the teacher/monk was blatantly trying to attract the attention of one of the students, repeatedly telling her in front of the sangha how much he liked her, and other come-ons. The student was clearly embarrassed,and avoided the teacher as much as possible, and it was bit uncomfortable for some of the rest of us as well, but no one said anything. Should someone have spoken to the teacher privately? How to handle something like this?
By the way, I'm not sure what you meant by, it's ok if a non-monastic teacher has partners. From the sangha they're teaching in? That's an abuse of authority. Technically, it's actually illegal. They get schoolteachers and professors on that, and it applies to religious authorities as well.(And Scoutmasters, supervisors at work, anyone in a position of authority over others.) I don't know if I'd be comfortable if the teacher of my sangha had affairs going with students. It would start seeming like a cult, for one thing. But if the student/s left the sangha and were no longer involved, that's a different matter. The teacher is no longer in a position of authority over the women, in that case. Everyone would be free to do what they want.
"Patrul Rinpoche, in 'The Oral Instructions of My Excellent Lama' reiterates that the best offering is one of practice:
'Although the lama is pleased by three types of service, it is said that the supreme type is the offering of practice. This means persevering in the practice of all the teachings taught by the lama and enduring all hardships. The intermediate way [...] is serving your lama by doing whatever he wants you to do with your body, speech and mind. The lowest way to please your lama is by making generous offerings of material things, such as food and wealth.' "
Earlier, the author says, although Naropa, Marpa or Milarepa would offer "everything to the lama, including wife, children, or his own body, speech and mind," for most students today, "these types of offerings are not only not expected, but strongly discouraged."
It looks like there's a difference of opinion between Patrul Rinpoche and Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Taye...? I think the latter position is the best, for this day and age.
If a teacher makes an inappropriate request (an offering of money from humble students who have little, or an offering of one's body), is there an etiquette for responding? I heard of a lama once who seemed to use his teachings as fund-raising events. I don't know how or why such people get invited to teach.
It looks like it's important not only to choose one's teacher carefully, but to choose a book on the student-teacher relationship carefully. (Someone please correct me if I've missed something here.) I would also say that it's important to choose the sangha carefully.
Hardly anything basic here.
Maybe we need to rename the banner "Buddhism for Advanced Beginners" and just let those seekers just curious about or interested in Buddhism go elsewhere?
I like the part where Patrul Rinpoche says that the best way of all to serve the lama is by practicing earnestly.
I think the text under the banner amplifies that this section is for people in various rudimentary or beginning stages of comprehension of Buddhism.
As such, they can easily be led down winding roads leading to possibly very confusing or vexing places.
Buddhism for Beginners
No question is too basic here
That implies keeping the questions in the OP simple. Part of that simplicity, I think, would be to avoid subject matter that is of a technical matter involving special aspects of one tradition or another.
Now, if a thread gets a little complicated, that sometimes cannot be helped. I guess, theoretically, we should bear this in mind when we make posts on that section, too —namely, try to get our points across simply and to the point. I guess we would also be remiss to let the topic change too much, too.
None of this speaks to whether it is the proper course of action or not ethically. I will leave that to each individual person in their particular situation. I know what I will and will not permit in my own personal relationships and that is the extent of it. I also know that baying like a wounded dog on every street corner about predators does not advance your case one iota. What on earth is your interest in this? Were you or one of your friends personally wounded by someone? If so, then speak from your or their personal experiences. You might restore some small shred of your disappearing credibility.
This forum is for people with genuine interest in Dharma to share their insights in good faith and with an attitude of respect and tolerance for each other's traditions. Your constant harping on the alleged actions of a few which you claim to be systemic abuse is beyond the pale.
I'm not discussing cases of women who have had willing relationships outside of a lama's professional relationship. And I'm aware that there have been mutually-desired relationships with sangha members, though the fact that the women were willing doesn't mean the lama's behavior was ethical. I'm trying to clarify the types of relationship and the professional and ethical issues involved (as well as perhaps the cultural (if any) and religious), with the ultimate goal of finding a solution to or at least minimize the problem. When people raise the same questions again and again, or don't understand the ethical principles involved, I have to repeat my points with different words. I was asked to set up a thread dedicated to this topic, so that's what I did.
Why would I have to have a personal connection with this issue? I thought the teachings say to apply compassion without discrimination, to friend, foe, or stranger. I've learned from experience and observation around the world that when women suffer sexual trauma, the only people who understand what they're going through, the only people they can count on for support with few exceptions, are other women. I reach out to strangers in distress whenever I'm in a position to help. This goes for victims of racial and other types of discrimination as well.
That's an interesting point. Strengthening the diversity among the ordained ranks would be enriching for students, I would think.
"Teachers with vows of celibacy will live according to their vows. Teachers in committed relationships will honor their vows and not commit adultery. All teachers agree not to use their teaching role to exploit their authority and position to assume a sexual relationship with a student.
a) a sexual relationship is never appropriate between teachers and students.
b)During retreats or formal teaching, any romantic or sexual relationship is inappropriate
c) If interest in a genuine committed relationship develops over time between a single teacher and a student, the [teacher-student] relationship must clearly and consciously have ended before further development toward a romantic relationship. In no case should [such a relationship] occur immediately after retreat. A minimum time period of 3 months or longer from the last formal teaching between [the two parties] and a clear understanding from both parties that the student-teacher relationship has ended must be coupled with a conscious commitment to enter into a relationship that brings no harm to either party."
http://www.spiritrock.org/display.asp?pageid=20&catid=4
My concern isn't with genuine committed relationships that may evolve, though that would probably be a rare occurrence in a sangha with just one teacher. My concern is with teachers seeking to exploit the students for their own gain, or fishing chronically for a relationship among the students, and thereby disturbing students who are present for serious study. The above guidelines are a good attempt to address all contingencies. This spells out the teachers' responsibilities, and the policy discussed earlier in this thread helps students navigate the sometimes muddy waters of their devoted relationship with the teacher. I don't know if Spirit Rock and other centers with similar policies put the teacher ethics policy into a contract for teachers, both local and international, to sign, but it wouldn't be a bad idea. Are there any other suggestions? Comments?
Where I have heard such allegations, they have typically been about western teachers who have not completed the traditional three year, three month retreat with clear signs and gained permission to teach from their tsawi lama. Tibetan buddhism is not the Catholic Church. There is no hierarchy to enforce codes of conduct across all practitioners. One needs to investigate those that one receives teachings from.
While this code of conduct is sensible, there is already a problem when things are to the point that one needs to spell out rules. It's really quite simple: avoid even the whiff of controversy. There are many blameless masters.
I also agree with the idea that dharma centers in the West need to research teachers thoroughly before inviting them. For students who travel to India, though, in search of someone to study with, it can be tricky making one's way through a sea of potential teachers, which is another problem entirely. The best thing, I suppose, would be for students to do their research in advance of their journey. What little research I've done recently into controversial Western teachers is corroborated by your statement.
The “Spirit Rock” rules that are mentioned by compassionate warrior are good - I think - and a sexual relationship within a teacher/student relationship is never a good idea.
So why do we need such rules?
Is there a difference between sangha and workplace or university?
In my experience there is such a difference because the spiritual teacher is often regarded as someone completely out of our league, as a specimen of some higher life form, as a living Buddha.
And that may be the root of the problem.
Complementing parts meet eventually: one person who feels very comfortable being worshipped and a group of people willing to worship him or her.
When people find each other on such a basis, they think the mentioned rules are absurd.
They trust their teacher more then any other person’s judgments including their own.
They would typically say that they would jump off a cliff if that’s what the teacher suggested. And wouldn’t reasonable people want to make rules against jumping off cliffs?
As sangha-members we need to keep our feet on the ground and we should be realistic about human nature and about the personality of the teacher.
Feel free to visit http://www.zenforfree.nl/ and give me some feedback on this website that we are working on.
Problems can arise when students are advised to regard a teacher as a Buddha and 'Guru yoga' in Tibetan Buddhism needs to be questioned in my opinion.
Quote from 'The Torch of Certainty' by Jamgon Kontrul, a text used for Ngondro Guru Yoga "Moving, walking, sleeping, sitting, happy or miserable, continuously think about nothing but the guru !"....and so on.
In the section 'Do not find fault with the guru' it says:
.... " How can a Buddha have faults? Whatever he does, let him do it ! Even if you see your guru having sexual relations, telling lies and so on, calmly meditate as follows : "These are my guru's unsurpassed skillful methods of training disciples. Through these methods he has brought many sentient beings to spiritual maturity and liberation. This is a hundred, a thousand times more wonderful than preserving a pure moral code. This is not deception or hypocrisy but the highest mode of conduct!"
Some might say that this is a form of brain washing.
Here's the book...
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=9072
quoted from the Synopsis:....
"This text is of great importance because these preliminary practices, or ngondro, are basic to all sects of Tibetan Buddhism. "The Four Foundations are the beginning of the Vajrayana discipline."
.
:-/
I have no personal experience in Tibetan-style guru-yoga though.
Someone explained to me that when guru-yoga is part of your practice, you’re well advised to keep a mountain range or an ocean between yourself and the guru.
Also the guru can be a deceased person.
The latter certainly seems to rule out any abuse from happening!
Dazzle, that passage you quoted is unbelievable!
One difference between sangha and workplace or university is that the guru is said to have the student's best interests in mind, and is believed to be one of the hightest spiritual (and therefore moral) authorities. This tends to engender a tremendous amount of trust on the part of the student,even when the guru doesn't actively solicit such trust (though some do, with ulterior motives), a factor that's absent in the workplace or university.
It's sad that dharma centers need to micro-manage teacher-student relations to the extent that the Spirit Rock rules indicate, but in the absence of any accountability among the teacher ranks, and in the absence of integrity in many cases, we can be grateful that dharma centers like Spirit Rock have taken the lead in modeling the kind of accountability structure necessary.
They may be inspiring speakers, they may have practised with enlightened gurus (like Ajahn Chah) but the lay teachers may not be enlightened
They may share the path very skilfully but they may have not actualised the path
Jack Kornfield has been very honest in some of his Dhamma talks. In one talk, he described in great detail when he returned from Asia he did two things quite vigorously: (1) set up meditation centres; and (2) have alot of casual sex. If my memory serves me right, finally, a woman came to him and said he needed to straighten himself as he was a Dhamma guru. That woman became his wife.
We need to keep in mind many teachers are sharing the path, which is a very meritorious thing. But they may have not fully actualised the path.
All the best
I know a lama, who I regard as very advanced. Where I live, his followers teach meditation, which they have learned from his instructor courses. But these lay teachers are far from enlightened. In fact, some still have major relationship & drug problems.
I spoke to this lama one day in private, about my career or work direction. He was not very interested in my questions. All he keep saying to me was "you should teach people meditation".
When I lived overseas, a certain Western monk disrobed. In fact, the Abbott of the monastery disagreed with certain aspects of this monk's behaviour. So the Western guy, who was quite intimate with the Abbott, went and lived & taught in a Western meditation centre and immediately started having a sexual relationship there with one of the female teachers who was also one of this Abbott's lay follower types (one of his "empowerees").
This same Abbott has another lay disciple who is an inspiring & professional teacher. When the guy was a monk, he actually had sex in the monastery whilst being a monk (which resulted in him having to disrobe). When I visited this guy once at his home, he was drinking alcohol & had his newest & latest Thai girlfriend.
But this Abbott is always encouraging his lay followers to teach dhamma, regardless of their path attainments. If they are good speakers & have faith in the Dhamma, he encourages & empowers them very strongly.
So many teachers are just ordinary folks really. Just ordinary human beings really.
This is my experience.
Well, my exteacher, a Tibetan lama said that I should think of him as Buddha because everything he says comes from Buddha. Then he lied and said that he didn't teach tantric sex, when I learned that he did. And yes, even the book he teaches from says to not find fault with the teacher. This is not only brainwashing, it is lies. I learned that we should always check out the guru thoroughly, and if he is doing wrong, leave. Of course I was told to do it "quietly."
I like what Sheng-yen said in his book Footsteps in the Snow. Something about people showing up at his sangha in NY to find out if they were having sex there, because they were really upset with other groups. They do not have sex there. Men and woman do not hug, do not stay alone together in a room, do not go places together alone, etc. Unlike Tibetan Buddhism where the lama can't be without his consort. Where if you are a woman you may not want to be in a room alone with him.