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mindfulness meditation-scepticism

TandaTanda Explorer
edited November 2010 in Buddhism Basics
My thoughts on and practice of mindfulness mediation is taunted by see-saw type internal arguments.
Sometimes I think that watching sensations in the body will take you nowhere
Just stumbled upon a verse which reflects my thoughts.:


The centipede was happy,
Quite until a toad in fun
Said, ‘pray, which leg goes after which?’
This worked his mind to such a pitch,
He lay distracted in a ditch,
Considering how to run.

I am seeking your insights.
Thanks

Comments

  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    If you lack faith, you can search scientific databases for articles about mindfulness. It's all scientifically proven. You can research how and why it works as well.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Sometimes I think that watching sensations in the body will take you nowhere

    Isn't that the point?
  • TandaTanda Explorer
    edited November 2010
    ...hmmmm
  • YesheDorjeYesheDorje
    edited November 2010
    evaluating what, how, and why you are doing something can help, but it can also cause you to get stuck like the centipede.

    Let it go, bring yourself back to your meditation, the future will provide the perspective.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    edited November 2010
    ShiftPlusOne wrote: »
    If you lack faith, you can search scientific databases for articles about mindfulness. It's all scientifically proven. You can research how and why it works as well.

    Care to share a few links?
    This sounds interesting.
  • SteadyBlueSteadyBlue
    edited November 2010
    I love MM but I'm really bad at it.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Watching your feelings become thoughts that express desires which when unfulfilled beget dukkha, and then to know those desires themselves are dukkha, return to the feelings and decide if you shall desire or not. Center on feelings.
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    LeonBasin wrote: »
    Care to share a few links?
    This sounds interesting.

    Find a library which has access to journal databases. If you can't, then google scholar provides some search functionality for papers. However, most results just give an abstract or a summary, so you can't get all the details without paying.

    Here is a sample search you could try.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Most of the research on mindfulness meditation is garbage, actually.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Jon Kabat Zinn has had some success in his stress reduction clinic.
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    Most of the research on mindfulness meditation is garbage, actually.

    Most of all research is garbage. However, when it comes to meditation, Goleman and Blackmore have done some interesting work.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    Jon Kabat Zinn has had some success in his stress reduction clinic.
    Check the "research" described in The Mindful Way Through Depresssion (which is nonetheless a great book.) Tiny sample sizes, and no meaningful control experiments. (Not that a meaningful control experiment is really ethically possible for this kind of work, which is a major reason why I say that most of this kind of research is garbage.)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2010
    ShiftPlusOne wrote: »
    ...when it comes to meditation, Goleman and Blackmore have done some interesting work.
    Can you give me a more specific citation?
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Blackmore deals more with sleep and OOBE than meditation, but it's interesting to read about anyway.

    http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/publicat.htm

    As for Goleman...

    http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&q=author%3Agoleman+meditation&as_sdt=2001&as_ylo=&as_vis=1
  • nlightennlighten Explorer
    edited November 2010
    You cannot fix what you are not aware of. Human beings are habitual creatures, and practicing mindfulness will condition your mind to becoming aware of the interactions between cause and effect.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2010
    ShiftPlusOne wrote: »
    Blackmore deals more with sleep and OOBE than meditation, but it's interesting to read about anyway...
    As for Goleman...

    Oh, you meant them separately. Any specific studies you think are worth looking at?
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    fivebells, nuh not really. I like this as a summary of what we know. Blackmore came to mind because I remember reading some interesting things about meditation while I was researching OOBEs.

    What exactly are you after? I can find anything imaginable from my uni's database.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Well, I said most research on mindfulness meditation is crap, and you said have a look at these guys, and so I'm wondering which of the particular studies they've published are particularly meritorious examples of research on mindfulness meditation. They are both prolific, so you are presumably thinking of some specific studies you've concluded are worthwhile, presumably after careful, critical examination of their methodologies?
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Ah no, I just remember thinking "hmm, interesting" while looking around and those are the names that came to mind. Never mind then.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Research is valuable to the extent that it advances understanding of some phenomenon by nailing down how it works. Interesting ideas don't cut it, and for now it's basically impossible to nail down how a mental phenomenon works in detail, because it's too complex to model and occurs in a physical system which we can't effectively and ethically query.
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    What sort of phenomenon are we talking about? How meditation boosts the immune system has been shown on a chemical level. Compassion, altruism and happiness have been statistically linked and somewhat explained. Mindfulness in terms of the pre-frontal cortex vs the amygdala provides a feasible explanation for how meditation gives us control over emotions. And so on... it's all valuable research.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2010
    If 'mindfulness' meditation is not bringing you a good result then the way you are doing it is not working. One hypothesis is that it is not good. But many other people like it.

    1. Mindfulness meditation is not good. *not supported by others liking it

    2. I don't like mindfulness meditation *this is like others like mushrooms on pizza but I don't

    3. I am not doing mindfulness meditation correctly. This is like making a pizza with bad spoiled ingredients and it tastes bad. But you have the potential to like pizza. (or burning it).

    If you have a bad patch in meditation it could be that the time is not right for you to meditate which could be another way of saying it is not your cup of tea. I think its pretty silly to accuse happy buddhists of being 'sheep' or something I mean thats kind of immature. Though I suppose it could be true.

    Another possibility is that you have some wrong views. When you correct those views it will feel better. Since the mind is naturally luminous you will eventually correct them. Also the mandala of awareness is drawing you to it to the extent that you open to it and long for........well you put in your own words. That is a teaching in Tibetan buddhism that there is like a 'blessing' (bad translation) from awakening itself that will help you along the way. It makes me feel more confident to feel that.
  • TandaTanda Explorer
    edited November 2010
    future will provide the perspective.

    Thanks Yeshe Dorje,But I am unable to anchor on 'trust' and 'faith'. I had quit another spiritual practise called SUBUD exactly for that reason, after hanging around for very very long years,but otherwise nothing that he said was unacceptable to me.

    Now Vipassana also seems to have a common hing with SUBUD .

    Thanks everyone else for involved discussion but I am still in square no 1.
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Tanda wrote: »
    My thoughts on and practice of mindfulness mediation is taunted by see-saw type internal arguments.
    Sometimes I think that watching sensations in the body will take you nowhere
    Just stumbled upon a verse which reflects my thoughts.:


    The centipede was happy,
    Quite until a toad in fun
    Said, ‘pray, which leg goes after which?’
    This worked his mind to such a pitch,
    He lay distracted in a ditch,
    Considering how to run.

    I am seeking your insights.
    Thanks
    Tanda, I've gone and read some of your other posts, and it seems you're coming to this practice with a host of agendas: to make you stronger, more capable and effectual along the trajectory of worldly goals or achievements. Perhaps you're feeling insecure about your ability to meet the imperatives or your workaday realities and want something to bolster your towards that end? If this is the case, meditation practice may indeed be a sort of escapism. Spirituality fueled by such unconscious agendas is bound to burn out. It can't sustain itself because eventually, you'll be disillusioned when Buddhism doesn't give you the results you're looking for.

    The fact of the matter is, you're already aware that Buddhism is not going to give you what you're looking for. This thread, and other posts of yours, question the fruit of Buddhism. The end result of this practice is pretty clear: nibbana (extinguishment of the flames of clinging). Nibbana is a peace born out of the practice of renunciation, particularly a renunciation of identification with causes and conditions. This entails reminding yourself (through study and meditation) that all that you are (and have been or will be) and all that you have (or have had or will accumulate) ultimately doesn't belong to you, but is simply lent to you by the world for the duration of your lifetime. Knowledge of this results in an easing up of clinging or grabbing for titles or objects, people or experiences. You are left with an experience of equanimity, gratitude, and peace.

    If this very specific kind of peace is not what you're looking for from this practice, yes, mindfulness meditation will not get you anywhere... at least, not anywhere you wish to go. It will be a distraction. If this is the case, don't drive yourself neurotic attempting to make Buddhism something it isn't. You will never get apple juice out of an orange. Also, don't worry about whether Buddhism is "the right way to live." For people who are interested in what Buddhism offers, it offers something valuable. For everyone else, perhaps not so.
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