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On the other hand, there is a common ground of dialogue about the human condition that both Buddhists and Christians agree on. Selfishness and self-seeking is a problem that both Buddhism and Christianity see as an underlying cause for unhappiness and sin. If you ask me, though, I think that Buddhism makes a frontal assault on problems both created by this selfishness and ones that compound it. Christianity, in comparison, tends to obfuscate the real problems in our lives by distracting us with a lot of fables.
From what I understand, The Imitation of Christ makes a pretty good stab at selfishness and self-seeking.
1. Would you agree that ignorance requires a teacher, much like sin requires a savior?
To the extent one is ignorant the ignorance can only be cured by a teacher, but the teacher need not be a human, the teacher can be an experience. A person ignorant of mathematics may require a teacher, but the person ignorant of how to be empathetic may learn this skill from their own suffering and seeing the same suffering in others.
Sin is a concept I would prefer to leave in the dark ages.
2. What is the source of the human predicament? (Christians would say it is sin, what would Buddhists say? Or is the question completely irrelevant for a Buddhist?)
We were born and having been born, knowing we will die, we have a predicament we have to deal with one way or another. Between birth and death we have our joys and happiness, but we also suffer as do those around us. This is a predicament begging for a solution where there usually is no solution. This has to be dealt with in some way.
3. What is the purpose for your life?
This question has a highly individualistic answer. The answer the multitudes give may have enormous overlap, but ultimately it is an individual answer. Each person must find their own meaning, their own reason to bother getting out of bed in the morning.
4. Do you have a hope for the future? (Will the world get better?)
I have no hope for the future, nor am I pessimistic toward the future, I prefer to focus on the now and be open to surprise.
5. Why is there evil in the world? (Theodicy!)
I think this is the wrong question. There isn't evil in the world, there is only suffering. Some suffering occurs because powerful forces are indifferent to human concerns (the tornado doesn't care if it uproots a corn field or a house with a family), other suffering occurs due to the actions of humans because those humans relate to the world the best they can, but they cause harm and suffering due to not knowing how to relate to the world in a less harmful way.
6. I was reading about the age of Mappo and that it is just basically the time we are in now that has been tied down with bad karma... can you explain this to me?
No.
7. If you had been born during the shobo period, would your life have been different? (I guess what I'm getting at is, Were you just born at the wrong time? Is that why you can't reach enlightenment on your own?)
No idea.
I am sincerely searching for an understanding of Buddhism. It is important to me to be knowledgeable on belief systems outside of my own.
Why do you cling to and identify with any belief system?
I don't want to be labeled as one of "those Christians" who thinks that they're better than everyone else or who thinks that their religion is better than everyone's.
Why do you care how random people on the internet label you?
I want to be able to talk to someone who has a different belief than me and understand where they are coming from. Please help me become a better person and a better Christian so that I can help change the views of those right-winged, liberal, evangelical, bible-thumping, so-called Christians that neither of us really care for.
Why do you want to fix that which is almost certainly outside of your ability to fix regardless of how much you learn?
I want to be able to talk to someone who has a different belief than me and understand where they are coming from. Please help me become a better person and a better Christian so that I can help change the views of those right-winged, liberal, evangelical, bible-thumping, so-called Christians that neither of us really care for.
Why do you want to fix that which is almost certainly outside of your ability to fix regardless of how much you learn?
I think this is a needlessly cold reply to a statement the OP added on to her questions. It's kinda heartless, I think, because it's not even a reply to a question. In effect, it's rather the kind of dismissal that is unseemly to anyone trying to speak the best she can from her heart, I think. The world is not a static place and every generation sees it differently. Therefore, to dismiss categorically the ability of people to see things in a different light is unnecessarily harsh and judgmental, IMO.
For those who don't know: The three Christian Theological Virtues are Faith, Hope, and Charity. They are all three intertwined and sum up the Christian life on earth. The Classical Christian has a lively Hope that he can work out his salvation through a Faith he comes upon through Hope and Love. He walks in Love, thereby enlivening not only his own Faith, but also sparking Faith and encouraging Hope in others. There are aberrations in the Christian community, emanating from Pauline-Calvinism and other influences, that have misaligned the gospel so as to emphasize Faith alone, and these trends continue largely unrebuked to this day. However, traditional, Classic Christianity still survives to challenge it. Most Neo-Calvinists will preach that if you don't know for sure that you're saved, you're gonna go to hell. However, from the classical Christian perspective, presumption is an opposite of hope —just as much as despair is. The more tradional Christian is unknowing on matters such as these and can only Trust in divine providence.
To assume that the trends of the last couple hundred years are permanent is not a safe assumption, in my view.
For those who don't know: The three Christian Theological Virtues are Faith, Hope, and Charity.
Faith, Hope and Charity in this regards is same as Faith, Vows and Practice in Buddhism text. Details on extract from Mind-Seal of the Buddhas by Patriarch Ou-i's Commentary on the Amitabha Sutra . http://www.ymba.org/mindseal/ess_exp_intro.html#ess
In the larger Amitabha Sutra or Sutra on Infinite life and light, the Charity or Practice is broaden and inclusive :bigclap:. Understanding faith and vow is important.
[Faith]. Believing in ourselves means believing that the [True Mind] ... is not a physical manifestation, and not the reflection of entangling objects: that it extends through time without any before or after and through space without any boundaries. Though it follows causal conditions all day long, it never changes.
All of space in the ten directions and all the worlds countless as atoms are originally things created by this Mind of ours. Although we are deluded and confused, if for a single moment we return to this Mind, we are sure to be born in the Land of Ultimate Bliss originally inherent in our own mind, and be troubled no more by worry and doubt. This is called "believing in ourselves".
Believing in others means having faith that the Tathagata Sakyamuni certainly did not lie, and that the World Honored One Amitabha certainly did not take his vows in vain. It means being certain that all the Buddhas of all the directions never equivocated, and following the true teachings of all the enlightened ones. It means establishing our will to seek birth in the Pure Land, and being prey no more to doubt and confusion. This is called "believing in others".
Believing in the causal basis means having faith that even Buddha-name invocation carried out in a scattered confused state of mind is still a seed of enlightenment, and that this is even more true of invoking the Buddha-name singlemindedly and without confusion. [If we sincerely and singlemindedly invoke the name of Amitabha Buddha], how can we fail to be born in the Pure Land? This is called "believing in the causal basis" [i.e., that recitation is the cause of enlightenment].
Believing in the result means having deep faith that the Pure Land and all the forms of goodness (spiritually superior beings) that are assembled there are born from the Buddha Remembrance Samadhi, the meditative concentration that comes from reciting the Buddha-name. When you plant melon seeds you get melons, and when you plant beans you get beans. [Effect follows causes] like a shadow follows a physical shape, like an echo responds to a sound. Nothing is sown in vain. This is called "believing in the result".
Believing factual phenomena means having deep faith that although this mind of ours is ephemeral, the worlds of the ten directions that appear based on it are inexhaustible. The Land of Ultimate Bliss really does exist ten billion Buddha-lands away, adorned with ultimate pure adornments. This is not some fable from Chuang-tzu. This is called "believing factual phenomena".
Believing in inner truth (noumenon) means having deep faith that the ten billions Buddha-lands (worlds) are in reality not outside our Mind. Since there is really nothing outside of this Mind, we have deep certainty that the whole array of beings and surroundings in the Western Paradise is a set of reflections appearing in our mind. All phenomena are merged with inner truth, all falsity is merged with truth. All practices are merged with True Nature. All others are merged with oneself. Our own inherent mind is all-pervasive, and the Buddha-mind is also all-pervasive, and the true nature of the minds of sentient beings is also. all-pervasive. It is like a thousand lamps in one room, each of whose lights shines on all the others and merges with the other lights without any obstruction. This is called "believing in inner truth" (Noumenon).
[Vows]. Once we have these forms of faith, then we must understand that the mundane world is the defilement brought about by our own minds, and we must detach from it; the Pure Land is the purity brought about by our own minds, and we must joyously seek it.[9] We must renounce defilement utterly, until there is nothing that can be renounced, and we must grasp purity utterly, until there is nothing that can be grasped.
Therefore the commentary Miao-tsung said:
If you take grasping and rejecting to the limit, they are not in a different groove than not grasping and not rejecting. If you do not engage in grasping and rejecting, and only value not grasping and not rejecting, this is a form of clinging to inner truth and abandoning phenomena. If you neglect the phenomenal level, then you are not complete at the inner truth level. If you arrive at the point where all phenomena are merged with inner truth, then both grasping and rejecting are also merged with inner truth. Sometimes grasping, sometimes rejecting, nothing is not the realm of reality.
[Practice]. When we speak of concentrating on invoking the Buddha-name singlemindedly, with a mind that is unified and not chaotic, we are using the Buddha-name to summon up the qualities of Buddhahood.[10] Since the qualities of Buddhahood are inconceivable, the Buddha-name itself is also inconceivable. Since the merits of the Buddha-name are also inconceivable, even if we recite the Buddha-name in a scattered state of mind, it is still a seed of enlightenment, a way of persevering and ascending toward enlightenment without falling back.
Many sutras teach Pure Land practices of various kinds: contemplating the image of Buddha, contemplating the concept of Buddha, doing prostrations, making offerings, practicing the five forms of repentance and the six forms of mindfulness, and so on. If you consummate any of these practices, [and dedicate the merits toward rebirth in the Pure Land], you will be born there. :rocker:
I have nothing skilfull to add to this discussion really.
Except that I vehemently disagree with Christianity's get out of jail card in the forms of instant absolution the minute you accept Jesus as your saviour.
I have nothing skilfull to add to this discussion really.
Except that I vehemently disagree with Christianity's get out of jail card in the forms of instant absolution the minute you accept Jesus as your saviour.
The only "jail" I believe in, is the one we construct for ourselves by unskilful actions, karma and other things we do under delusions.
I however, strongly resent the implications that Christianity posits by saying we are inherently "bad" people no matter what.
In metta,
Raven
Raven,
If you don't believe in the jail then there is no 'get out of jail free' card. You misunderstand the Christian concept of metanoia but why should you not? One wouldn't expect a stranger to understand concepts and language familiar to us.
Please understand that the idea that "we are inherently 'bad' people no matter what" is bad Christian theology, akin to the idea that some non-Buddhists have that we "worship a fat man". Some things can only be understood from the inside.
If you don't believe in the jail then there is no 'get out of jail free' card. You misunderstand the Christian concept of metanoia but why should you not? One wouldn't expect a stranger to understand concepts and language familiar to us.
Please understand that the idea that "we are inherently 'bad' people no matter what" is bad Christian theology, akin to the idea that some non-Buddhists have that we "worship a fat man". Some things can only be understood from the inside.
Stranger? I grew up and was raised a Christian, as I've mentioned in other posts on the forums. "Some things can only be understood from the inside" - so non-Christians are ignorant of understanding Chrisitianity? Ouch. Assumption much?
I'm guessing then by your post, that all the Christians I grew up with need to relearn their dogma and religion as they don't understand their own faith - and I include all the nuns and priests who educated me as well as my father. Sadly "bad Christian theology" is taught more often than "good" or correct ones.
I consider myself both Christian and Buddhist, because I am drawn to the irrefutable truth of the latter and was born into the former. That which I am born into is my dharma and it is also my oldest and dearest Friend.
With metta,
Samsara is the process of reincarnation of the six realms arises from defilement of attachment, discrimination and delusion. It transforms one dharma body in various forms of delusion. So, it is normal that the christian was a buddhist in his past life, and likewise to buddhist as christian in her previous life, in the law of reincarnation. In fact, we all are dearest since the past, and the present as well as future.
Stranger? I grew up and was raised a Christian, as I've mentioned in other posts on the forums. "Some things can only be understood from the inside" - so non-Christians are ignorant of understanding Chrisitianity? Ouch. Assumption much?
I'm guessing then by your post, that all the Christians I grew up with need to relearn their dogma and religion as they don't understand their own faith - and I include all the nuns and priests who educated me as well as my father. Sadly "bad Christian theology" is taught more often than "good" or correct ones.
In metta,
Raven
Raven,
Yes indeed, I believe that your teachers were wrong and taught error. They deliberately ignore the message of universal redemption that both Jesus and Paul taught, and cling to hierarchy and paternalistic phallocracy. The reasons? Social control IMO.
Paul says, very clearly, that all are redeemed in Christ and Jesus declares that none is lost. Very clear but not much comfort for those who want to exercise power by claiming to be the only dispensers of salvation.
Fortunately there have been teachers in every generation who have been prepared to return to the original message and to eschew the exclusivism that has tainted the good news.
Paul says, very clearly, that all are redeemed in Christ and Jesus declares that none is lost. Very clear but not much comfort for those who want to exercise power by claiming to be the only dispensers of salvation
So Simon just how does that gel with Anatta and Buddhism? Does this mean that no matter what we do or don't believew, we're going to heaven with Jesus?
So Simon just how does that gel with Anatta and Buddhism? Does this mean that no matter what we do or don't believew, we're going to heaven with Jesus?
Genuinely curious here.
In metta,
Raven
I'm as curious as you are, Raven, which is why I continue my practice.
Comments
From what I understand, The Imitation of Christ makes a pretty good stab at selfishness and self-seeking.
But the Buddha had a more direct approach than the religionists that followed Jesus!
Can't disagree with you there.
Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra of neither Increase nor Decrease
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra14.html
By the Venerable Master Hsuan Hua
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/BuddhismAnimalsVegetarian/eatingflesh.html
Hope it is beneficial and is the basis of Soteriology
To the extent one is ignorant the ignorance can only be cured by a teacher, but the teacher need not be a human, the teacher can be an experience. A person ignorant of mathematics may require a teacher, but the person ignorant of how to be empathetic may learn this skill from their own suffering and seeing the same suffering in others.
Sin is a concept I would prefer to leave in the dark ages.
We were born and having been born, knowing we will die, we have a predicament we have to deal with one way or another. Between birth and death we have our joys and happiness, but we also suffer as do those around us. This is a predicament begging for a solution where there usually is no solution. This has to be dealt with in some way.
This question has a highly individualistic answer. The answer the multitudes give may have enormous overlap, but ultimately it is an individual answer. Each person must find their own meaning, their own reason to bother getting out of bed in the morning.
I have no hope for the future, nor am I pessimistic toward the future, I prefer to focus on the now and be open to surprise.
I think this is the wrong question. There isn't evil in the world, there is only suffering. Some suffering occurs because powerful forces are indifferent to human concerns (the tornado doesn't care if it uproots a corn field or a house with a family), other suffering occurs due to the actions of humans because those humans relate to the world the best they can, but they cause harm and suffering due to not knowing how to relate to the world in a less harmful way.
No.
No idea.
Why do you cling to and identify with any belief system?
Why do you care how random people on the internet label you?
Why do you want to fix that which is almost certainly outside of your ability to fix regardless of how much you learn?
I think this is a needlessly cold reply to a statement the OP added on to her questions. It's kinda heartless, I think, because it's not even a reply to a question. In effect, it's rather the kind of dismissal that is unseemly to anyone trying to speak the best she can from her heart, I think. The world is not a static place and every generation sees it differently. Therefore, to dismiss categorically the ability of people to see things in a different light is unnecessarily harsh and judgmental, IMO.
For those who don't know: The three Christian Theological Virtues are Faith, Hope, and Charity. They are all three intertwined and sum up the Christian life on earth. The Classical Christian has a lively Hope that he can work out his salvation through a Faith he comes upon through Hope and Love. He walks in Love, thereby enlivening not only his own Faith, but also sparking Faith and encouraging Hope in others. There are aberrations in the Christian community, emanating from Pauline-Calvinism and other influences, that have misaligned the gospel so as to emphasize Faith alone, and these trends continue largely unrebuked to this day. However, traditional, Classic Christianity still survives to challenge it. Most Neo-Calvinists will preach that if you don't know for sure that you're saved, you're gonna go to hell. However, from the classical Christian perspective, presumption is an opposite of hope —just as much as despair is. The more tradional Christian is unknowing on matters such as these and can only Trust in divine providence.
To assume that the trends of the last couple hundred years are permanent is not a safe assumption, in my view.
Faith, Hope and Charity in this regards is same as Faith, Vows and Practice in Buddhism text. Details on extract from Mind-Seal of the Buddhas by Patriarch Ou-i's Commentary on the Amitabha Sutra .
http://www.ymba.org/mindseal/ess_exp_intro.html#ess
In the larger Amitabha Sutra or Sutra on Infinite life and light, the Charity or Practice is broaden and inclusive :bigclap:. Understanding faith and vow is important.
[Faith]. Believing in ourselves means believing that the [True Mind] ... is not a physical manifestation, and not the reflection of entangling objects: that it extends through time without any before or after and through space without any boundaries. Though it follows causal conditions all day long, it never changes.
All of space in the ten directions and all the worlds countless as atoms are originally things created by this Mind of ours. Although we are deluded and confused, if for a single moment we return to this Mind, we are sure to be born in the Land of Ultimate Bliss originally inherent in our own mind, and be troubled no more by worry and doubt. This is called "believing in ourselves".
Believing in others means having faith that the Tathagata Sakyamuni certainly did not lie, and that the World Honored One Amitabha certainly did not take his vows in vain. It means being certain that all the Buddhas of all the directions never equivocated, and following the true teachings of all the enlightened ones. It means establishing our will to seek birth in the Pure Land, and being prey no more to doubt and confusion. This is called "believing in others".
Believing in the causal basis means having faith that even Buddha-name invocation carried out in a scattered confused state of mind is still a seed of enlightenment, and that this is even more true of invoking the Buddha-name singlemindedly and without confusion. [If we sincerely and singlemindedly invoke the name of Amitabha Buddha], how can we fail to be born in the Pure Land? This is called "believing in the causal basis" [i.e., that recitation is the cause of enlightenment].
Believing in the result means having deep faith that the Pure Land and all the forms of goodness (spiritually superior beings) that are assembled there are born from the Buddha Remembrance Samadhi, the meditative concentration that comes from reciting the Buddha-name. When you plant melon seeds you get melons, and when you plant beans you get beans. [Effect follows causes] like a shadow follows a physical shape, like an echo responds to a sound. Nothing is sown in vain. This is called "believing in the result".
Believing factual phenomena means having deep faith that although this mind of ours is ephemeral, the worlds of the ten directions that appear based on it are inexhaustible. The Land of Ultimate Bliss really does exist ten billion Buddha-lands away, adorned with ultimate pure adornments. This is not some fable from Chuang-tzu. This is called "believing factual phenomena".
Believing in inner truth (noumenon) means having deep faith that the ten billions Buddha-lands (worlds) are in reality not outside our Mind. Since there is really nothing outside of this Mind, we have deep certainty that the whole array of beings and surroundings in the Western Paradise is a set of reflections appearing in our mind. All phenomena are merged with inner truth, all falsity is merged with truth. All practices are merged with True Nature. All others are merged with oneself. Our own inherent mind is all-pervasive, and the Buddha-mind is also all-pervasive, and the true nature of the minds of sentient beings is also. all-pervasive. It is like a thousand lamps in one room, each of whose lights shines on all the others and merges with the other lights without any obstruction. This is called "believing in inner truth" (Noumenon).
[Vows]. Once we have these forms of faith, then we must understand that the mundane world is the defilement brought about by our own minds, and we must detach from it; the Pure Land is the purity brought about by our own minds, and we must joyously seek it.[9] We must renounce defilement utterly, until there is nothing that can be renounced, and we must grasp purity utterly, until there is nothing that can be grasped.
Therefore the commentary Miao-tsung said:
If you take grasping and rejecting to the limit, they are not in a different groove than not grasping and not rejecting. If you do not engage in grasping and rejecting, and only value not grasping and not rejecting, this is a form of clinging to inner truth and abandoning phenomena. If you neglect the phenomenal level, then you are not complete at the inner truth level. If you arrive at the point where all phenomena are merged with inner truth, then both grasping and rejecting are also merged with inner truth. Sometimes grasping, sometimes rejecting, nothing is not the realm of reality.
[Practice]. When we speak of concentrating on invoking the Buddha-name singlemindedly, with a mind that is unified and not chaotic, we are using the Buddha-name to summon up the qualities of Buddhahood.[10] Since the qualities of Buddhahood are inconceivable, the Buddha-name itself is also inconceivable. Since the merits of the Buddha-name are also inconceivable, even if we recite the Buddha-name in a scattered state of mind, it is still a seed of enlightenment, a way of persevering and ascending toward enlightenment without falling back.
Many sutras teach Pure Land practices of various kinds: contemplating the image of Buddha, contemplating the concept of Buddha, doing prostrations, making offerings, practicing the five forms of repentance and the six forms of mindfulness, and so on. If you consummate any of these practices, [and dedicate the merits toward rebirth in the Pure Land], you will be born there. :rocker:
I have nothing skilfull to add to this discussion really.
Except that I vehemently disagree with Christianity's get out of jail card in the forms of instant absolution the minute you accept Jesus as your saviour.
Namaste,
Raven
Does this mean that you believe in the "jail"?
The only "jail" I believe in, is the one we construct for ourselves by unskilful actions, karma and other things we do under delusions.
I however, strongly resent the implications that Christianity posits by saying we are inherently "bad" people no matter what.
In metta,
Raven
Raven,
If you don't believe in the jail then there is no 'get out of jail free' card. You misunderstand the Christian concept of metanoia but why should you not? One wouldn't expect a stranger to understand concepts and language familiar to us.
Please understand that the idea that "we are inherently 'bad' people no matter what" is bad Christian theology, akin to the idea that some non-Buddhists have that we "worship a fat man". Some things can only be understood from the inside.
Stranger? I grew up and was raised a Christian, as I've mentioned in other posts on the forums. "Some things can only be understood from the inside" - so non-Christians are ignorant of understanding Chrisitianity? Ouch. Assumption much?
I'm guessing then by your post, that all the Christians I grew up with need to relearn their dogma and religion as they don't understand their own faith - and I include all the nuns and priests who educated me as well as my father. Sadly "bad Christian theology" is taught more often than "good" or correct ones.
In metta,
Raven
Samsara is the process of reincarnation of the six realms arises from defilement of attachment, discrimination and delusion. It transforms one dharma body in various forms of delusion. So, it is normal that the christian was a buddhist in his past life, and likewise to buddhist as christian in her previous life, in the law of reincarnation. In fact, we all are dearest since the past, and the present as well as future.
Raven,
Yes indeed, I believe that your teachers were wrong and taught error. They deliberately ignore the message of universal redemption that both Jesus and Paul taught, and cling to hierarchy and paternalistic phallocracy. The reasons? Social control IMO.
Paul says, very clearly, that all are redeemed in Christ and Jesus declares that none is lost. Very clear but not much comfort for those who want to exercise power by claiming to be the only dispensers of salvation.
Fortunately there have been teachers in every generation who have been prepared to return to the original message and to eschew the exclusivism that has tainted the good news.
So Simon just how does that gel with Anatta and Buddhism? Does this mean that no matter what we do or don't believew, we're going to heaven with Jesus?
Genuinely curious here.
In metta,
Raven
I'm as curious as you are, Raven, which is why I continue my practice.
Fair call
In metta,
Raven