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Playing Poker for a Living
One of the truths is to make your living in a good way...i.e. not selling gns, or alcohol or drugs, etc. Playing poker for a living...makes me wonder about this. Nothing really is produced, or people helped, but does it violate the right livelihood path?
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I see it no different from being a chef ( a vegetarian chef of coz for some :cool: ).
Whatever you earn is spent and is of value as the multiplier effect will take over from there.
It just bothers me sometimes and i still question if it is right livelihood. One CAN practice buddhism at the table, heh, there are many opportunities. Being a chef helps people. But then i think playing pro basketball or football doesn't really help people either. i'm still meditating on this.
playing live at casino is fine i think..you pay a rake to play.. and everyone knows what they are getting into... live poker is not rigged right? it's FAIR.
I have a feeling that online sites will go until their run is over then SELL all your information, credit card numbers , passport or photo ID's
to anyone with a dollar..be careful
The main thing that needs to be considered is if playing poker for a living is wholesome. Is it really helping anyone, when we change the owner of the money from one person to another? (and give the majority of the monies to the site by paying rake)
Now I am not condemning anyone for doing this for living. I have actually tried it for myself also. But it's hard for me to see any 'real value' in having this as a profession. It's not something that can really satisfy one with the feeling of contributing etc.
Of course it makes sense to do it for ones survival, if it so happens, that there's no other (easier) way.
1) one of the supreme truths to be happy is to serve. playing poker does not serve others. altho sometimes i will take someone aside and tell them how to improve their game. but 99% of the time, it goes thru one ear and out the other at the speed of light. often i feel to tell someone, they are better off quiting the game and never playing.
2) the game, to be successful, you MUST take advantage of others' weaknesses, to win their money. plus the game does promote greed and the thoughts of wanting more, more, MORE. More desire, the desire to always get more. hmmm, this is a slippery slope too.
for now i must still play to pay bills, etc. but i'm not serving much here and thoughts of more and the desire to have more, is not so good. i will forgive myself and seek to improve and find another way.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html#fn-1
(3) "What are the six channels for dissipating wealth which he does not pursue?
(a) "indulgence in intoxicants which cause infatuation and heedlessness;
(b) sauntering in streets at unseemly hours;
(c) frequenting theatrical shows;
(d) indulgence in gambling which causes heedlessness;
(e) association with evil companions;
(f) the habit of idleness.
also
(d) "There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in indulging in gambling:
(i) the winner begets hate, (ii) the loser grieves for lost wealth, (iii) loss of wealth, (iv) his word is not relied upon in a court of law, (v) he is despised by his friends and associates, (vi) he is not sought after for matrimony; for people would say he is a gambler and is not fit to look after a wife.
also...
(e) "There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in associating with evil companions, namely: any gambler, any libertine, any drunkard, any swindler, any cheat, any rowdy is his friend and companion.
I at the moment have no choice but to play poker as thailand is very strict on laws with regards to foreigners working. There are not a lot of options there, I am building a portfolio as I have a national diploma in graphic design, that is my objective. However, graphic design is the fuel of capitalism and it is something I see as negative thing, so is this a negative livelihood?
I don't think you have to be anti-capitalist to be a buddhist.
I never said that you had to, but think for example the company 'boxer'. They were emplyed to rebrand mcdonalds about 5 years ago. They made the image of mcdonalds appear fresh, healthy and targeted peoples ideologies to encourage them to buy into their product. Had the food become healthy and fresh? No it had not, but many people would have bought into such an image and could have become unhealthy or worse, died. Graphic design is not just slapping text and imagery onto something, it can go far deeper than this to the point of exploiting peoples ideologies and turning the wheel of capitalism ever more, I do not agree with it. I realized it half way through my university days in graphic design, so subsequently left
I would go as far to say playing poker is maybe more righteous than what I had intended to do before hand.
(=_=) Are you suggesting I don't really want to be? I don't live anywhere where there is a Vihara, just how would I do that?
Not to say that there's a hierarchy of right and wrong, but if they're doing something that doesn't lead to mindfulness, tranquility, or insight it's not productive.
I see you no different from a professional sports player, in basketball or football. In all sports, winning takes skills, and it's all about exploiting weaknesses of your opponents as advised in the Art of War.
Because any charitable cause may be contributing to harmful activity. Make proper investigation. A lot of gambling joints are either owned by Native Americans, but most are owned by the mob.
A sports player unless they practice profound mindfulness on the court, field, or pitch are also not developing their mind productively(but I know a few players who actually practice mindfulness in sports, but that's a hard thing to do). So unless you can do profound mindfulness in poker WITHOUT Dishonesty(which is part of the game), Greed, and with coarse discernment, it should be avoided.
Poker teaches you how to lie and conceal your lies. Such a sport could be seen as heedless and shameless when you openly use that skill to deceive, exploit, and harm others. Exploiting weakness in war is also the act of warmongers. Have you forgotten nonharming? Well exploitation is harmful as is lying.
Yes... especially a "used car" salesman!
Exactly. One has to be discerning even when it comes to doing charitable deeds.
I agree with you that the field of sport is one of the best places to practice mindfulness.
"Dishonesty"? I beg to differ. A bluff is not dishonesty. It's a strategy used in the game of poker. It's just a game, no more.
"Greed"? The objective of the game of poker is to win as many chips as you can. I see it no different from "checkmating" your opponent in the game of chess.
Poker doesn't teach you how to lie or conceal your lie. Bluffing is part of the game.
"Exploiting weakness"? eg in a game of football, strikers capitalise on defensive lapses, eg a lack of concentration due to tiredness, to score a goal. Is that harming? I doubt so.
It's just a game and one can choose not to play, by all means.
HARHARHARHARHAR!:crazy:
Which is why if you can practice mindfulness playing poker, then it should be okay, but if it gets in the way of your livelihood or your practice, it is better abandoned
Okay the Four conditions of musavada (Telling lies)
1.The thing communicated must be untrue.
2. There must be an intention to deceive.
3.There must be an effort made as a result of the said intention.
4. The other must know the meaning of what is communicated.
If these conditions are fulfilled, the fourth precept is violated.
Webster says bluffing is "bluffing" present participle of bluff (Verb)
1. Try to deceive someone as to one's abilities or intentions: "he's been bluffing all along"; "“I am an accredited envoy,” he bluffed".
2. Mislead (someone) in this way: "the object is to bluff your opponent into submission".
Musavada is violated by bluffing.
Buddhism doesn't believe in privileged lies, nor special cases involving the precepts. All you need to violate them is the action, intention, effort, and knowledge of the wrong committed. A lie is a lie.
In chess the checkmate isn't made by lying, it is made by strategy, but I also don't think chess is fair if a person cheats or exploits someone else.
Therefore it teaches shamelessness in lying. As I said before, the precept of lying is violated by bluffing.
It causes conflict for both teams actually, and builds frustration in the game. I think it makes people unhappy.
And that is why I say it is better abandoned, but I do not say not to play. I also do not say it is prohibited. I say merely it is better avoided if it affects your livelihood and your mindfulness.
Looks like we have different interpretations of Buddhism maybe due to cultural/geographical differences. No issue. I can agree that we disagree on a few things.
Cheers!
Thanks!
Ok,
But in fact bluffing in poker does not work that way. No false information is actually communicated. One sees and raises, hoping the other will fold.
Other behaviors which we also call "bluffing" may include outright lying. But not bluffing as it is done in poker.
--Nevertheless, I imagine the Buddha would consider it at least a little shady, because you can't benefit without hurting someone else. I'm sure better livelihoods are available to Davy.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
A bluff is an attempt to convince people you have a higher hand than you actually have. It's a lie used to make people fold.
Would it matter if everyone in the game knew that bluffing was part of the strategy involved?
Following this line of thinking, wouldn't an acting career be inconsistent with the precept since it fulfills the requirements for musavada as The_Fruit_Punch_Wizard explained? Does it make a difference if the audience knows that the actor is pretending (i.e., "lying")?
I'm curious to see what everyone's thoughts are regarding this idea.
No.
Yes actually. Acting and writing fiction that doesn't teach a good moral message or a warning about how life is will end up being a broken precept.
Not for Karma friend. It doesn't matter.
I remember reading a sutra about a guy who was told that living as an actor would lead him to the world of the laughing devas, and he asked Buddha if it was true, and the Buddha refused to tell him twice. Upon the third time the Buddha said that what actually happens is they end up in a horrible predicament when they're laughed at for every false thing they have done for a lot of Kalpas in a type of hell of their own creation.
Edit:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.002.than.html
Found it
This is where trying to turn Buddhism with its precepts into a moral list of do and don't actions quickly gets one mired down in an endless "how about" question and answer session. Orthodox Jews have thousands of such little rules and still need specially trained religious scholars to deliver verdits such as, "Just how far may a person carry something on the Sabbath without it being considered work, and a sin? OK, now how heavy can it be?"
There is no list of occupations in Buddhism that we can point to and say, "These are bad! Not allowed!" because we don't deal in absolute right and wrongs. Anyone who tries to give you such a list is misinformed. The most any Buddhist should respond with is, "Depends."