Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
There is no list of occupations in Buddhism that we can point to and say, "These are bad! Not allowed!" because we don't deal in absolute right and wrongs. Anyone who tries to give you such a list is misinformed. The most any Buddhist should respond with is, "Depends."
WHOA! Not true, the Noble Eightfold Path has "Right Livelihood" for that reason. A Buddhist person should not become an arms dealer, a drug dealer, an assassin, etc. or they aren't keeping up with right livelihood, and the Buddha has a lot to say about the right livelihood of lay followers.
Buddha:"A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."
He mentions that acting is a type of intoxicant too because it builds aversion, delusion, and ignorance etc. .
If the intention is to play a useful role in society in order to support oneself and to help others, then the work one does is right livelihood, but a person must be honest, understand the consequences, far and near of their job, they must not kill, Not steal, not misuse sex, not lie, and not abuse intoxicants.
sorry for my ignorance lol, I thought it was final fantasy or a version of it. It looks cool though. Annnd sorry for going off topic people!
Lulz it's fine, it's a welcome breath of fresh air from a difficult topic.
I like FF too though.
Though back to the topic, I really think mindfulness is key to understanding how conducive a job is to generation of Karma. One needs to understand the immediate effects of one's job, and the aftereffects. If you works as a bartender it's easy to see how you could lead to another person's harm, but if you clean the bar or have a restaurant with a bar, what are the effects it'll have on future customers? Will it generate harm or non-harm?
My University struggled with that one with the stabbing of a kid due to the alcohol served in an off-campus diner. This alcohol lead to the kid stabbing another kid. Now people are blaming the bar and the diner was closed down as a consequence. So you see you gotta understand the near and far consequences of a job.
Yeah, I respectfully disagree with you on this, too. I mean, I can't claim I know certainly how karma works: but from everything I've understood, intention is of paramount importance.
In fact, I remember this as a Buddhist explanation of mystical powers: You see a child in a burning house, and tell him to come outside. The kid doesn't want to, because he's playing with his toys. So you tell him you have better toys outside.
When he comes outside to discover you've lied, he can see the house is on fire.
Acting I think is like any art form. If being a musician doesn't accrue bad karma, being an actor wouldn't either; and vice versa. (If you're an actor in stories that teach bad messages, then that's another thing.)
-added-
My University struggled with that one with the stabbing of a kid due to the alcohol served in an off-campus diner. This alcohol lead to the kid stabbing another kid. Now people are blaming the bar and the diner was closed down as a consequence.
Yeah, and when they close THAT bar, the college kids will go to another, seedier place to do their drinking. The repressive approach causes suffering. Far better to open a bar on campus (and to drop the drinking age), so dopey kids get sloshed under adult supervision.
Yeah, I respectfully disagree with you on this, too. I mean, I can't claim I know certainly how karma works: but from everything I've understood, intention is of paramount importance.
Like I said, the Buddha said that "Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter."
In fact, I remember this as a Buddhist explanation of mystical powers: You see a child in a burning house, and tell him to come outside. The kid doesn't want to, because he's playing with his toys. So you tell him you have better toys outside. When he comes outside to discover you've lied, he can see the house is on fire.
That is the problem, if you intended to mislead it's one thing, but that's a lesson on parables which lead to telling the truth. It's different.
Acting I think is like any art form. If being a musician doesn't accrue bad karma, being an actor wouldn't either; and vice versa. (If you're an actor in stories that teach bad messages, then that's another thing.)
And I mentioned exactly that when I explained it before. That's what I think too. It depends on the message. Which goes back to an actor that uses parables or tells lies to reveal the truth.
WHOA! Not true, the Noble Eightfold Path has "Right Livelihood" for that reason. A Buddhist person should not become an arms dealer, a drug dealer, an assassin, etc. or they aren't keeping up with right livelihood, and the Buddha has a lot to say about the right livelihood of lay followers.
Buddha:"A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."
He mentions that acting is a type of intoxicant too because it builds aversion, delusion, and ignorance etc. .
OK, what about working at a Walmart where meat is sold. Is it all right to work the cash register but do I have to quit rather than work the deli section where meat is sliced? Oh, they also sell ammunition. Is that OK? How about the bows and arrows. For that matter, I love archery as a hobby but if I buy a bow, am I causing the person selling it to me to have bad karma?
And acting, don't get me started on that. I work in marketing and sales, and boy if those sales folk ain't acting for a living, nobody is. We even have scripts we practice before meeting a client. Yet we sell advertising campaigns that several local business say saved their companies and kept dozens of people in a job. So how am I breaking the Dharma?
I could go on and on, and that's why an ancient list of occupations has to be seen in the society and culture of that time. This is my point. The next enlightened Buddha you meet might be the man selling you a pound of hamburger, in spite of what the sutras say. Understand this, and you understand the difference between Buddhism and faith based religions.
And I always have to end with, this doesn't mean I believe anything goes. The precepts and rules that do exist, exist for a reason. Fruit Punch Wizard is quite right in pointing out what the sutra says. All I disagree on is how much this applies to modern practice.
OK, what about working at a Walmart where meat is sold. Is it all right to work the cash register but do I have to quit rather than work the deli section where meat is sliced? Oh, they also sell ammunition. Is that OK? How about the bows and arrows. For that matter, I love archery as a hobby but if I buy a bow, am I causing the person selling it to me to have bad karma?
And acting, don't get me started on that. I work in marketing and sales, and boy if those sales folk ain't acting for a living, nobody is. We even have scripts we practice before meeting a client. Yet we sell advertising campaigns that several local business say saved their companies and kept dozens of people in a job. So how am I breaking the Dharma?
It's not breaking the Dharma, but breaking the precept. The precept is a vow to uphold a method of conduct which generates merit. If you break the vow it isn't the vow breaking that generates the problematic karma, it's refusal to control and be responsible for your part in the actions that lead to more unpleasant effects.
I could go on and on, and that's why an ancient list of occupations has to be seen in the society and culture of that time.
I think you're missing the point. The point is that all of these jobs as a householder are ultimately unsatisfactory. It's meant to lead us to a life of contemplation and abandonment of these unsatisfactory occupations and choose a more righteous one which is either monastic life or a very well thought out one that does not harm.
The next enlightened Buddha you meet might be the man selling you a pound of hamburger, in spite of what the sutras say.
The next enlightened Buddha will be wise and compassionate enough to not be caught dead in the fast food franchises. I think you're not understanding my purpose in grilling these points. The point ultimately is that anyone who does a job will not recognize how their jobs harm people unless they take great care to understand exactly what they're agreeing to do. When you realize that what you're agreeing to do is something that is harmful, and breaking the precepts, you're more likely to go into a better job, or even consider a life of contemplation rather than an occupation outside of monastic or wandering life.
Understand this, and you understand the difference between Buddhism and faith based religions.
I never said this was a faith-based issue. It has to do with cause and effect. If you know what you are doing has harmful effects, it is wiser to abandon them. If you don't know better, then you are ignorant. If you know, but do not abandon them, you are deluded, if you know but feel you cannot abandon them, then you are attached. etc. This is all about what is harmful and what is not.
And I always have to end with, this doesn't mean I believe anything goes. The precepts and rules that do exist, exist for a reason. Fruit Punch Wizard is quite right in pointing out what the sutra says. All I disagree on is how much this applies to modern practice.
I think what the sutras say have much relevance to modern-day practice. Who hasn't gone into an extremely depressing movie and come out feeling depressed? They're contributing to unhappiness, and they're not even real and we KNOW they're not real. It doesn't change how it affects people. Especially people who aren't that understanding of what ultimate reality is. :rolleyes:
It seems we've both made good points. At the risk of beating a dead horse (and here some would say, Too late!) I simply want to share one of my favorite poems.
Sengtsan, the Third Patriarch: To live in the Great Way is neither easy nor difficult, but those with limited views are fearful and irresolute: the faster they hurry, the slower they go, and attachment cannot be limited; even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment is to go astray. Just let things be in their own way, and there will be neither coming nor going.
So my Teaching says, rules are important, but don't get attached to them, meaning don't think your practice is about obeying rules. Neither does breaking the rules prove any special wisdom. Be your own lamp.
Comments
WHOA! Not true, the Noble Eightfold Path has "Right Livelihood" for that reason. A Buddhist person should not become an arms dealer, a drug dealer, an assassin, etc. or they aren't keeping up with right livelihood, and the Buddha has a lot to say about the right livelihood of lay followers.
Buddha:"A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."
He mentions that acting is a type of intoxicant too because it builds aversion, delusion, and ignorance etc. .
Oh but it's better than Final Fantasy. It's Touhou. Just imagine the classic version of space invaders amped up to an insane difficulty.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/62iCIvclkLc?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/62iCIvclkLc?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
Touhou cured my cousin's ADD because it taught her how to focus. Else you get blasted.
Lulz it's fine, it's a welcome breath of fresh air from a difficult topic.
I like FF too though.
Though back to the topic, I really think mindfulness is key to understanding how conducive a job is to generation of Karma. One needs to understand the immediate effects of one's job, and the aftereffects. If you works as a bartender it's easy to see how you could lead to another person's harm, but if you clean the bar or have a restaurant with a bar, what are the effects it'll have on future customers? Will it generate harm or non-harm?
My University struggled with that one with the stabbing of a kid due to the alcohol served in an off-campus diner. This alcohol lead to the kid stabbing another kid. Now people are blaming the bar and the diner was closed down as a consequence. So you see you gotta understand the near and far consequences of a job.
Yeah, I respectfully disagree with you on this, too. I mean, I can't claim I know certainly how karma works: but from everything I've understood, intention is of paramount importance.
In fact, I remember this as a Buddhist explanation of mystical powers: You see a child in a burning house, and tell him to come outside. The kid doesn't want to, because he's playing with his toys. So you tell him you have better toys outside.
When he comes outside to discover you've lied, he can see the house is on fire.
Acting I think is like any art form. If being a musician doesn't accrue bad karma, being an actor wouldn't either; and vice versa. (If you're an actor in stories that teach bad messages, then that's another thing.)
-added-
Yeah, and when they close THAT bar, the college kids will go to another, seedier place to do their drinking. The repressive approach causes suffering. Far better to open a bar on campus (and to drop the drinking age), so dopey kids get sloshed under adult supervision.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
Like I said, the Buddha said that "Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter."
That is the problem, if you intended to mislead it's one thing, but that's a lesson on parables which lead to telling the truth. It's different.
And I mentioned exactly that when I explained it before. That's what I think too. It depends on the message. Which goes back to an actor that uses parables or tells lies to reveal the truth.
OK, what about working at a Walmart where meat is sold. Is it all right to work the cash register but do I have to quit rather than work the deli section where meat is sliced? Oh, they also sell ammunition. Is that OK? How about the bows and arrows. For that matter, I love archery as a hobby but if I buy a bow, am I causing the person selling it to me to have bad karma?
And acting, don't get me started on that. I work in marketing and sales, and boy if those sales folk ain't acting for a living, nobody is. We even have scripts we practice before meeting a client. Yet we sell advertising campaigns that several local business say saved their companies and kept dozens of people in a job. So how am I breaking the Dharma?
I could go on and on, and that's why an ancient list of occupations has to be seen in the society and culture of that time. This is my point. The next enlightened Buddha you meet might be the man selling you a pound of hamburger, in spite of what the sutras say. Understand this, and you understand the difference between Buddhism and faith based religions.
And I always have to end with, this doesn't mean I believe anything goes. The precepts and rules that do exist, exist for a reason. Fruit Punch Wizard is quite right in pointing out what the sutra says. All I disagree on is how much this applies to modern practice.
It's not breaking the Dharma, but breaking the precept. The precept is a vow to uphold a method of conduct which generates merit. If you break the vow it isn't the vow breaking that generates the problematic karma, it's refusal to control and be responsible for your part in the actions that lead to more unpleasant effects.
I think you're missing the point. The point is that all of these jobs as a householder are ultimately unsatisfactory. It's meant to lead us to a life of contemplation and abandonment of these unsatisfactory occupations and choose a more righteous one which is either monastic life or a very well thought out one that does not harm.
The next enlightened Buddha will be wise and compassionate enough to not be caught dead in the fast food franchises.
I never said this was a faith-based issue. It has to do with cause and effect. If you know what you are doing has harmful effects, it is wiser to abandon them. If you don't know better, then you are ignorant. If you know, but do not abandon them, you are deluded, if you know but feel you cannot abandon them, then you are attached. etc. This is all about what is harmful and what is not.
I think what the sutras say have much relevance to modern-day practice. Who hasn't gone into an extremely depressing movie and come out feeling depressed? They're contributing to unhappiness, and they're not even real and we KNOW they're not real. It doesn't change how it affects people. Especially people who aren't that understanding of what ultimate reality is. :rolleyes:
Sengtsan, the Third Patriarch:
To live in the Great Way
is neither easy nor difficult,
but those with limited views
are fearful and irresolute:
the faster they hurry, the slower they go,
and attachment cannot be limited;
even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment is to go astray.
Just let things be in their own way,
and there will be neither coming nor going.
So my Teaching says, rules are important, but don't get attached to them, meaning don't think your practice is about obeying rules. Neither does breaking the rules prove any special wisdom. Be your own lamp.
A deep bow to you.