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If you were to meet two enlightened individuals...
Let's imagine we lived in a world where two particular individuals had achieved nirvana. They were both Buddha.
In theory, we would be able to spot several similarities in the way they went about their lives.
But what would set them apart? Beyond their individual physical appearance would they be the same? Would they have the same personality?
I guess my question and fear with committing to buddhism is the loss of my individuality, my personality. Sure enough some of you will say - "but don't you get attachment leads to suffering?". Well, a lot of things change, but there's a core that stays with us from the moment we first recognize ourselves as a separate (oh the HUMANITY! :P) entity as a child, until we are old and die.
Buddhism stresses how we are equal. But what about what makes us unique? Will it die out with buddhist practice (lets imagine I was death set on achieving nirvana)?
I hear so much talk about letting go, as if the whole of me was a disease that I needed to abhor. I have a bit of an obsession in that I like consistency and to preserve my sense of identity. I like to stay true to myself.
In theory, we would be able to spot several similarities in the way they went about their lives.
But what would set them apart? Beyond their individual physical appearance would they be the same? Would they have the same personality?
I guess my question and fear with committing to buddhism is the loss of my individuality, my personality. Sure enough some of you will say - "but don't you get attachment leads to suffering?". Well, a lot of things change, but there's a core that stays with us from the moment we first recognize ourselves as a separate (oh the HUMANITY! :P) entity as a child, until we are old and die.
Buddhism stresses how we are equal. But what about what makes us unique? Will it die out with buddhist practice (lets imagine I was death set on achieving nirvana)?
I hear so much talk about letting go, as if the whole of me was a disease that I needed to abhor. I have a bit of an obsession in that I like consistency and to preserve my sense of identity. I like to stay true to myself.
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Comments
I don't think many of us stand to become faceless zombies because we're Buddhist, whether we become enlightened or not.
Not something I'd dwell on if I were you
Exactly, and I'd lose all that right? I wouldn't be partial to anything. My sense of humor, my personal charisma, my love for videogames, by love for this or that...would die right?
I'd lose a lot. I don't want happiness at any cost. If 'I' disappeared it wouldn't be the same person being happy. It would be another being. I'm already going to die physically, why should I wan't to die psychologically?
But you guys didn't answer my question
Absolutely not, two buddhas would each have their own personal characteristics. One might like to eat sweet foods and dance, while the other preferred spicy foods and reading.
Buddhism does not erase personality or personal characteristics, in fact it enhances individuality and uniqueness.
I have not met any Buddhas lately, but the advanced practitioners that I have met exude unique personality and all demonstrate a unique happy quality. They are Happy, helpful, compassionate, but otherwise not at all alike.
My own experience is that Buddhism helps to change the things that I have not liked about myself (nervous, irritable, agresive, dissatisfied) and has made me more free and capable to express my own individuality and in fact given me back some of the personality that the suffering smothered.
I'm not sure of what you're afraid you'll turn into. You'll still be you, no matter what. Your memories, your likes and dislikes, your habits and mannerisms and talents and beliefs. Only maybe some of the bad habits will be gone.
The thing is, a little meditation and following some general moral rules is not going to change anybody in any they don't want.
I'll give you an example. I always considered myself as someone with a great sense of empathy. But all my friends know me for being very sarcastic and very aggressive with my humor. I make fun of people sometimes, not in a bullying sort of way...in a way that people know I'm just one big bullshitter who is a big softy underneath (and most of my friends have proof of that when it hits the fan). I do rub a lot of people the wrong way at first though, because I'm very direct and I say what I think. Still, never had a problem making friends.
So the problem is I am away from right speech with my humor...but humor is what defines me among friends and acquaintances and strangers. No one hates my guts or anything, quite the contrary. But if I were to be a true buddhist I probably wouldn't say half the things I say. Right intention but wrong speech, I guess.
If I stop swearing, making fun of suffering in a light hearted way, and all those things that comprise my sense of humor....I'll not longer be myself.
I've tried just sitting among friends and watching what I say. Thinking before I speak. It's HELL on earth?! My friends even ask me what's wrong with me. They feel a loss of intimacy and mental connection and so do I. That's just one example.
So now I can't play violent games anymore....I've never hit anyone in my life! I hate violence....but I allow myself to indulge in it a bit in videogames.
If I'm gonna be robbed of all of this I'll be a completely different person and lose all of the harmful little things that give me pleasure in life.
I'm virtually the same as when I was 6 lol. That's actually something people say about me, that I stay the same.
You know, I've never looked back at anything I ever did in life and thought I was naive. I look back and think I was slightly more idealistic, sure. But I don't know if I wasn't happier back then.
And no, it's not just how people view me that matters. In fact, it matters very little. What matters is my ability to enjoy other people's presence. I don't like the idea of detaching myself from my friends because I become superior in any way. I hate disconnect from people and between people. Even people who have done me wrong, I dislike ignoring or not "leveling with". And I'd hate to think the person I am in 50 years wouldn't be able to respect my current self.
I'm not asking you guys to sway my fears. Just for facts.
This is either inspired poetry or really messed up translation. There's something about the word "confuddling" that makes me want to assign a meaning to it.
I think that is true from some monks too. However, a monk can be just as deluded as a layperson can. Heck, I know of monks who have snuck out to the pub to go drinking. Certainly not enlightened beings.
Hi Epicurus
I admire your courageous honesty.
So are you saying your personality and sense of humour never stop you from enjoying other peoples presence, make you feel superior or disconnect from people. If so your experience is very different from mine. But perhaps you have a 'better' personality than mine.
I'm sorry I cant answer you question about the two buddhas because it seems too much like worrying about how much homework people do in grade 12 when I am in grade 1. I do think they both would be very funny. Dunno about the video games probably if the opportunity arose they might give them a go.
Perhaps you could mindfully investigate humor. Is it possible to be funny and not put anyone down? I might investigate this myself.
thanks for the food for thought:)
Monks have a lot of rules and restrictions that are deemed by some to be conducive to pratice but all teachings are a raft to be let go of when not useful so once they are enlightened who knows? Their previous behaviours do not indicate their future ones. Being a monk is not the only path.
In death, the agregates disolve and what made "you," is no more. All that remains is karmic impressions, which give rise to a rebirth of consciousness and thus a new set of aggregates and new personality based on previous karma.
Our attachment to our concept of self is why we are suffering. It is why we are reborn.
When you finally give up your self, you gain that which is most precious, liberation and enlightenment.
Oh I'm certainly investigating humor. My native tongue is actually not english, and I'm planning on emigrating to an english speaking country in the future and it's been a source of a certain anxiety actually. I'm just too attached to the idea I'm a charismatic funny person in my native country and in my native language and in my native WAY :P
I certainly don't want to become a monk. I've experienced a sense of peace a couple of times in my life that told me such a life is not necessary for me to feel relatively self-actualized. It's all in our head at the end of the day.
But I do want to strive for something better. And one of my biggest fears is of being perceived as a hypocrite actually lol...so my behavior must be reflective of my intentions.
It's actually been a source of trouble for me in the past. I'm very blunt and ignore taboo. But I tend to enjoy banter a bit too much. I had to deal with people whom I loved very much, that didn't understand my way of communicating wasn't indicative of how I really feel.....it's a bit of a poison...I protect myself too much with my humor...it's true. But that's also because I'm very vulnerable emotionally.
Talisman: If it's going to be dependent on my belief on reincarnation I might as well give up. Buddhism as yet to give me a good reason to believe in it.
And what you described doesn't sound too good. Because I'm attached to my sense of self...yes, I know. I've met enough mental patients to recognize how no notion of self can be bad.
You just gotta relax and watch the show. When ego slips into the background, although you're still on the stage you're not center-stage anymore.
However, what does any of this have to do with affection?
A buddha would have more affection for everybody, albeit more detached. However, there would still be some bonds of affection and friendship that would be very strong and perhaps insurmountable. I doubt that Buddha just allowed Ananda to get so close to him for utilitarian purposes only. Now that would be selfish. There is nothing wrong with enjoying human companionship. Indeed, the "perfected" human being would be one who would most exemplify full or optimal use of all parts of the human body, mind, speech, and custom and would have optimal control of whatever physical mobility or mental focussing possible. What's perfect is "thoroughly-together" or "throughly made," to use the archaic form.
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Epicurus wrote: I've tried just sitting among friends and watching what I say. Thinking before I speak. It's HELL on earth?! My friends even ask me what's wrong with me. They feel a loss of intimacy and mental connection and so do I. That's just one example.
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Well, just stop doing that! Spend time with friends and rather than feeling you have to be all stiff and phony, be yourself —warts and all. Save the stiff spine and pure thought crap for meditation time. Heck, you're with friends, lighten up! But you don't have to be the life of the party, either. When you just spend time consciously watching and listening to others and enjoying their company, you are probably doing the sort of thing that we human beings are "programmed" to be and do.
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Epicurus wrote: I'm virtually the same as when I was 6 lol. That's actually something people say about me, that I stay the same.
You know, I've never looked back at anything I ever did in life and thought I was naive. I look back and think I was slightly more idealistic, sure. But I don't know if I wasn't happier back then.
And no, it's not just how people view me that matters. In fact, it matters very little. What matters is my ability to enjoy other people's presence. I don't like the idea of detaching myself from my friends because I become superior in any way. I hate disconnect from people and between people. Even people who have done me wrong, I dislike ignoring or not "leveling with". And I'd hate to think the person I am in 50 years wouldn't be able to respect my current self.
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You will always be that 6-yr old at heart. That's good!
And you will doubtless always enjoy the companionship of other people.
Please read my Sarada Devi signature, and know that mentally cutting oneself off from others can only lead to grave spiritual error. We are here to acknowledge and help each other and fortunately we have a little thing called affection to make it a hell of a lot easier.
You are a Blessing!
No, not necessarily. From what I understand, a truly enlightened person still has emotions. But those emotions don't get to them in the same way they get to the rest of us.
As a poor analogy, you can easily imagine that if you were in the middle of a really wonderful love affair with someone who you cared about deeply... you might be less interested in video games. You could still play them and enjoy them. But they wouldn't
Regarding your sense of humor... Psychologists tell us that laughter is often the way we deal with insecurities. It's a release valve. Find someone who laughs at things you don't find funny. Pay attention to what they laugh at, and learn what their priorities are and (therefore) what makes them anxious.
Then understand that your own sense of humor masks your own insecurities. If you worked out those insecurities, you'd laugh less.
If you become enlightened (and I'm sure you will, if you choose to), you will cherish all sentient beings at all times, including yourself before you became enlightened.
That's a good sign. You might consider reading a book that my profile links to. It's a biography of a person who appears to have become enlightened, and includes a description by her of the state of mind and way of being that resulted for her.
Bingo.
Communicating how we really feel is often frightening, and makes us feel insecure. Humor is a tool we use to cope with this. But it's not necessarily a good tool; not in comparison to dealing effectively with what is making us anxious and learning to communicate what we feel.
In general...
This is probably a question you can come back to repeatedly through your life. Now it's probably sufficient to ask yourself, "What can I productively work on now that I know I *do* want?"
I am fairly certain that Englightenment isn't one of those evil fairy-tale genies that attends to the exact phrasing of your wish, so that it can spite you with a perverse fulfillment. If anything, it's the reverse of this.
If there's something truly deeply objectionable to you about enlightenment... you won't become enlightened at that time. You'll turn from the opportunity. It'll wait for you to be ready.
It's not a spiritual mugging.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
I would suggest you to keep practicing and not worry. In time the answers will come to you 'by themselves', if you keep up with the practice.