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Hello all from the newby
Hello All,
I thought I might introduce myself. My name is Esau, I was untill a year ago a Theravadin monk. Currently I am finishing off some legall study and hopefully will enter more into the Welfare trend as I also cousel people with mental illness.
Though I have been a Theravadin my Buddhism goes beyond that. Actually I have recently been researching the Pudgalavadins and trying to acertain their theories of "self" or "soul" which I have found interesting and can't say I disagree with some of there theories.
I hope I find you all well, and I hope to learn alot from you all.
Namaste.
Esau
I thought I might introduce myself. My name is Esau, I was untill a year ago a Theravadin monk. Currently I am finishing off some legall study and hopefully will enter more into the Welfare trend as I also cousel people with mental illness.
Though I have been a Theravadin my Buddhism goes beyond that. Actually I have recently been researching the Pudgalavadins and trying to acertain their theories of "self" or "soul" which I have found interesting and can't say I disagree with some of there theories.
I hope I find you all well, and I hope to learn alot from you all.
Namaste.
Esau
0
Comments
Welcome to the site. It is a very nice place to be---at least to me anyway! LOL! I can get answers to my many questions without anyone being condescending and patronizing which is a big plus in my book! I look forward to getting to know you better.
Adiana:wavey:
-bf
Little idiotic joke for you....
hello Esau, and welcome to you.
Hope you enjoy being with us.
(What with Matt in his hooded Cloak, and Esau in HIS hooded cloak.... I feel a Monk moment coming on.....!!)
Never having heard of Pudgalavadin Buddhism, I looked it up and, lo and behold, it led me back to Gnostics and Manichaeans, Bon and Dzogchen.
I would be very interested to hear your take on their beliefs and how you reconcile the idea of a personal essence with the traditional Buddhist concept of non-self.
Shalom and welcome! It is wonderful to have such a person join our discussions. I would be very interested in hearing more about your experiences and beliefs. I hope that you find us a friendly, and curious bunch.
As for your interest in the Pudgalavadins, I too was once interested in the exact meanings of 'Self', 'not-self', and what was in-between. Throughout the beginning of my journey into Buddhism I flirted with the Pudgalavadin's view (helped by the fact that I was pagan before with a strong belief in a 'Self' already), however, I began to see a key problem. "I" was in no position to determine the exact nature of the 'Self' when I did not even grasp the basic tenets of Buddhism. I decided to leave the question of the 'Self' alone simply because I found that that was what the Buddha himself recommended.
Whatever the truth, it must be 'seen' for oneself whether that truth is 'not-self', pudgala (person), or neither 'self nor not-self', etc. It cannot be put into words, and it cannot be understood solely through the intellectual analysis of the aggregates, it must eventually be experienced. That is to me the end of the Path. All these trainings merely lead to this insight, this 'Awakening'. You see, the Pudgalavadins went by the same Suttas as the other accepted schools of Buddhism, they were not deemed 'heretical' at the time of their existence. They simply held to a different interpretation of the Buddha's teaching on anatta. There was much debate at that time as to what the Buddha was really pointing at, with Sutta references as evidence for both sides. Beyond this debate, however, their methods of attainment, were as far as we know, exactly the same. No matter what the 'Truth' about anatta was, each school had the same practice - the Noble Eightfold Path.
Even today, unnoticed by most, certain Theravada and Mahayana sects mirror the ancient Pudgalavadins. If you pay close attention to certain Thai forest masters and what they teach, for example, you will see a striking resemblance to the Pudgalavadins. Now, I am not saying that they believe in or teach about a 'Self' as the Pudgalavadins did, but they teach in a way that leaves the question open. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, for example, teaches The Not-self Strategy. There are others who are even more suspect, some which take the citta (mind) as being the eternal property, or so it appears from their talks in any case.
The point I guess is: In the end who knows?
If we were to conclude now what the answer may be it would only be out of speculation. There would be no 'gnosis', no knowledge. We are never asked by the Buddha to speculate about what he meant and be freed by our conceptual thoughts of such. All that does is lead to views and to the propagation of those views (a form of samsara?).
With clinging comes what?
"And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging. - SN XII.2
That's right, dukkha eventually arises due to the sustenance of clinging. That is the danger of clinging, even to a 'Self' if there were such a thing. The Buddha only taught one thing - the extinction of dukkha. We must be careful when we travel the Path to put down our burdens, not pick up more.
For us the quest continues. We each undertake this journey with the hopes of finding out these answers for ourselves. There isn't much certainty in this world, even in the practice of Buddhism, but there is one thing that we can have confidence in - The Noble Eightfold Path.
That is just how I see it anyway.
Forgive my ramblings.
Jason
Just wanted to thank you guys for your replies, it was much appreciated. I guess my take on the whole person thing has been my way of dealing with the whole, merit, rebirth, and everthing in between. My question to myself is. "what is the point of practise and trying to enlightement of myself and others if their is nothing to enlighten"? I've also heard recently throught the grape vine that some of the Tibetan masters were handing back their Bodhisatva voews to the Dali Lama with the same question.
I also asked myself, "if it is only mind and the thoughts of form that is attached to karma and hence determines rebith, what happens if I think of something other than a human form? Is it possible then to be reborn a chicken"? While I understand that rebirth follows a linear form and reincarnation a cyclic form I seem to have stumped myself. Then again this is probably some unhealthy form of clinging that I need to get away from?
So you see my delema. Then again I have read the "Burden" Sutta in which the Buddha speaks about the existence of a person.
So their you have it, any thoughts?????
Esau
I certainly understand your dilemma. Have you ever read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Five Pile of Bricks or The Not-self Strategy? If not, I recommend them. Perhaps you will gain a better understanding of the Buddha's purpose in teaching about the khandhas, as well as anatta. Beyond that, since I have not seen the truth of the matter myself, I cannot offer any more advice.
Jason
This is not easy. And those whom suppose that Buddhism is a cop-out, or an easy ride with no challenge simply do not grasp that even the Living by the Basics takes Effort...:)
My thoughts are that I'd be a little more discriminating in what you read. The story about teachers handing back their vows to the Dalai Lama based on some misunderstanding of Annata for example is pure fiction. Also, the views on self in Buddhism that you espouse are understood by even the freshest of novices in the Theravadin monastic tradition as wildly inaccurate. Interestingly, from the last post that I read, they're also, word for word, those put forward by the Dark Zen group, often by people claiming to be ordained who have not been. Buddhism doesn't teach that there is no self at all. What it does teach is that what we call self is an ever changing group of characteristics, with no enduring substance or essence. It's also basic Buddhism. These might help clarify it for you:
http://www.watflorida.org/What the Buddha Never Taught.htm
http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha215.htm
Buddhism in a nutshell
Buddhanet's Basic Buddhism Guide - Rebirth
P.S Since you were an Australian monk, you would know Ajahn Brahm, the Abbot of Bodhinyana Monastery. Please say Hi for me next time you see him.