Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Angulimala and forgiving: how can one attain the power of forgiveness?
The_Fruit_Punch_Wiza
Veteran
Angulimala, was a robber and serial killer and he converted to monkhood and became an Arahant. He was accepted into the Buddhist monastic order and the Buddha saved him from rebirth in the lowest worlds of painful existence, and was able to use the transformational power of the Dharma to make a killer become an Arahant.
That kind of depth of forgiveness and redeeming power is very difficult to imagine and comprehend. How can I extend my ability to forgive?
I personally thought of a practice similar to the Metta Bhvana where I would begin with forgiving myself for all misdeeds and actions I have committed, then forgive someone close to me that I want to forgive for committing hurtful deeds, and then a neutral person, and then a person that is harder to forgive with whom I do not get along with. Then I extend forgiveness to all sentient beings in the past, present, and future.
One stumbling block with this idea is that I began to notice that I was consistently holding grudges, and while with this practice I was letting go of most of them, I started noticing that there were a lot of similar types of grudges coming up, and I am worried that perhaps my ability to forgive is hindered. Is it a problem with a practice or a problem with myself?
What is another way I can attain that power that allowed a serial killer to rise up and become an Arahant ?
That kind of depth of forgiveness and redeeming power is very difficult to imagine and comprehend. How can I extend my ability to forgive?
I personally thought of a practice similar to the Metta Bhvana where I would begin with forgiving myself for all misdeeds and actions I have committed, then forgive someone close to me that I want to forgive for committing hurtful deeds, and then a neutral person, and then a person that is harder to forgive with whom I do not get along with. Then I extend forgiveness to all sentient beings in the past, present, and future.
One stumbling block with this idea is that I began to notice that I was consistently holding grudges, and while with this practice I was letting go of most of them, I started noticing that there were a lot of similar types of grudges coming up, and I am worried that perhaps my ability to forgive is hindered. Is it a problem with a practice or a problem with myself?
What is another way I can attain that power that allowed a serial killer to rise up and become an Arahant ?
0
Comments
No, no, that is probably a wonderful development. It means you are opening to your resentment enough that you are permitting awareness of resentments you previously repressed. You can't learn to rest with these things until they're out in the open. I would ask an experienced teacher about it if possible, though.
If you can empty your own boat crossing the river of the world, no one will oppose you, no one will seek to harm you ..."
Holding grudges happens because you assume that the other person has true agency to control their actions. If you look at how they are carried helplessly along by the river of their own negative emotions, true compassion can arise. If you reflect on anatma, you can remove the very idea that there is a separate being there at all that you can be in conflict with as well as the idea that you have any personal agenda.
I agree with fivebells. This is a good sign that you are coming to terms with things which maybe hovered just under the threshold of your conscious mind, similar to the illustration of shamatha:
"When you first begin to meditate, the movement of thoughts may feel like a rushing waterfall. But as you continue to apply the technique of recognizing thoughts and returning your focus to the breath, the torrent slows down to a river, then to a meandering stream, which eventually flows into a deep, calm ocean."
I think you should only give forgiveness to someone who is remorseful. But then I'm not a buddha.
Why not give it to all?
And if not, don't you think that those with more bad karma could benefit even more from our love, compassion and forgiveness? They certainly seem to be the one needing the extra help.
Also I believe that forgiveness isn't pure. Just like patience; they are both useful up to a point on our journey but will become purposeless once acceptance and inner peace is realized.
what do you think?
This would be labeled as trust or hope (trusting similar events wouldn't happen in the future) don't you think?
as far as forgiveness goes, do you agree that one would be better off giving forgiveness regardless of trust and hope into somebody else action?
If they weren't remorseful, i agree that it would be more likely that they would do the same things again and one should evaluate the situation accordingly.
But you can forgive and choose to leave, or forgive and choose to stay...
Im not familiar with "idiot compassion", but i don't see anything idiotic about forgiving everyone regardless of anything.
By forgiveness I don't mean letting go of the experience. By forgiveness I mean continuing the relationship with that person. Obviously it depends what they did. If they stole 2000 dollars from you as far as I am concerned they are toast. If they forgot your birthday then maybe not though I would still prefer them to be remorseful if it was something important to me. Or at least that they empathize with my side of things.
And I'll jump in here and give my own understanding, from a teaching by an old Zen guy I knew. When I first started my path, I had a big hangup with anger from events in my own past.
You must learn to forgive. Forgiveness isn't something that you give somebody, although we refer to it as "Forgiving someone" for want of a better way of saying it. It's not something that people earn the right to receive. Forgiveness isn't trust. Forgiveness isn't excusing or forgetting a wrong that someone has done to you. It has no conditions dependent on someone else's behavior at all. People don't need your forgiveness. It has nothing at all to do with other people, in fact.
Forgiveness is letting go of your anger, that's all. People can hurt you and the people you care about, cause you pain physically or emotionally. But they do not cause your anger. Your mind inflicts that upon yourself. Anger motivates you to action, to strike back and defend yourself. But we hold onto anger after it's used its original purpose. We get angry all over again when we think about the pain and hurt.
So let go of the anger. It only gets in the way of a clear mind. It isn't needed. Yes, the person hurt you. So in the future, you know what that person is capable of, and that determines your decision whether or not to trust them in the future or even if you are safe having anything to do with them. But anger isn't necessary for that.
Forgiveness doesn't mean ignore what happened. Just realize that your anger is not necessary. Forgive. It's something you do to yourself, for yourself.
What to you think of this take on forgiveness? It helped me quite a bit to sort out a lot of past issues with childhood abuse.
I Fyou are not forgiving, then you are not, why do you want to change who you are? And don't you think, that to be trully forgiveness, first you would have to forgive yourself not being forgiveness? HOW do you want to achieve forgiveness, if your motivation is opposite to what you want to achieve? You plants seed of hate in hope it will grow to tree of love.
To trully forgive other first you have to forgive yourself.
No such thing, I'm trying to become a more forgiving person. I don't expect or want anything in return.
I want to change who I am so that I can become a better person. I feel I am not reaching my fullest potential by holding grudges, and I am defiling my mind which has the potential to be pure and free.
You mean being forgiving.
:skeptical When did I say I wanted to be hateful and cruel?
WHEN? and WHERE? :skeptical
Done and done.
I can't forgive others if I don't forgive myself.
You say that you want to be on path of love, but you steps into path of hate.
To say "I am" is outright an illusion. "Anatta" one of the main teachings of Buddhism rejects the idea of "I am". "I" changes and as a result of "anicca", it changes all the time moment by moment causing becoming every second. To reject this idea that "I am" is the first moment of realization of false views.
I am not anything more than a collection of skandhas that change from moment to moment. There's nothing that doesn't change. No "I" to hate. Just what are you prattling on about? :rolleyesc
How? :skeptical
I'm not following. You're making a distinction between changing the bad habits of the mind and choosing love? Please explain, especially how changing yourself is the path of hate. It sounds like an interesting take on the Buddha's teaching.
and about you cinorjer - i'll quote myself and hope that does answer your question(and saying "choosing path of love" was little unfortunatte, because this is not something that can be choosen):
"Being enlighted means accepting "true you". If you tell yourself that "true you" is honest and good person and then seek this, you are not on the path to enlightement.
Enlightement means accepting both good and evil, if evil person is who you really are then accepting this is path of enlightement.
Enlightement is acceptation of your very current state - whenever you seek for enlightement you want you current state to be changed.
Enlightement is state of love to yourself, and love to others is just mirror of your inner love.
You cannot trully love yourself, if you decides that only "moral and positive" part of you is worth of loving."
Firstly, you confuse constant virtuous action with materialistic self-improvement. Improving oneself in order to achieve some benefit in the future is no doubt problematic. Improving oneself to be of better service to others on the other hand is not a fault.
Secondly, it's all well and good to go on about acceptance and enlightenment so long as one is actually free from delusion. If you are still subject to delusion, then it is imperative that you conduct yourself in a moral fashion. As Padmasambhava says, "Ascend with conduct, descend with the view."
Morality starts with a frank assessment of our personality traits based on confusion. It then depends on active engagement in virtue. For a bodhisattva these are the six paramitas, for example. It actually does great violence to your authenticity if you pretend you are a great enlightened being when you are not. We have plenty of examples of that from Western teachers that pretend to be living buddhas when really they are just very spoiled children. Start where you are.
with acceptance, the negative karma will dissolve like we talked about earlier in the thread.
eventually, you will come to realize your true self and see this karma stuff for what it is.
So you will not have to love this stuff in order to love yourself, since it is not you to begin with, it is just stuff that you have.
so your point (that i quoted) will be a non issue.
edit: stuff that you have that block your true nature from shining if not dissolved.
Ah, yes. Master Dae Kwang once started by saying, "We are all perfect just the way we are, and we can all use some improvement!"
But don't the sutras say to look past dualistic labels such as good and evil, not accept them? "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me, in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased."
I think I see what you're getting at, but I'd say instead of accepting both the good and evil in yourself, discover a true self of compassion.
And by saying that i mean you don't see beyond good and evil because you try too, it is just effect of accepting good and evil;
If you treat this effect as your target, this means you don't want to accept them, you just hope to see beyond and evade acceptation.
If you don't see beyond good and evil right now and you try to, then all you do is trying to change who you are.
And it doesn't matter if what you want to change into is correct with your "true self" - it doesn't matter, because that isn't something that you really know, it's just something you read in book or heard from your master and you want it to be true, because you like that what your master said more than who you actually are right now.
It maybe true that after accepting your inner evil you become pure love, but that doesn't matter while you are accepting evil - because if you accept evil, that means you don't care if you are good person; and if you seek for love, and that's the reason of accepting evil, then you don't trully want to accept evil, you just want to achieve love.
For some reason i'm talking about love/good/evil, but it could aswell talk about enlightement; this is not something to seek for; to achieve enlightement, first you have to accept that you are not enlighted; and if you try to do this only to finally achieve enlightement, then you are unable to trully acept your non-enlightement; you have to accept that you are not and maybe never will be enlighted.
I don't know if what i wrote seems clear and logic; i wrote same thing in topic "i achieved enlightement and lost it", but writing about meditation - i think that was perfectly clear, and it was 100% same thing i just wrote.
To put it another way, this issue is precisely why there are teachings on the Two Truths. Extending your position to others logically, one could say "There is no point to rescuing someone who is drowning" or "There is no point intervening if you see someone being raped" because "Everything is perfect just as it is". The premises must be rejected as they lead to absurd conclusions.
I am unable to answer this question(even though it's not really a question), but i am not as certain as you that this kind of attitude is not attitude of enlighted one.
But once again, as other have pointed to you, this is not enlightenment.
At that time you could have see clearly the garbage that was left for you to deal with and that was blocking you from being completely enlighten, completely free.
Not understanding what the negative karma is, and holding on to the view that it is "you", will prevent you from purifying yourself and progressing on your path.
You seem to be making too much of that one experience you had, perhaps you are thinking that the rest of the path will be very easy for you because of it?
It is indeed a common experience that every meditators will have several times along the way.
This does not diminish the importance of it, the wonderfulness of it, but there is a good reason why all teachers recommend not to make too much of these experiences. Just let it all sink in and move on.
This man has also, for the last 20 years been abducting children, never over the age of 7 from shopping malls. He has hung out there waiting for parents to become distracted and then he grabs the kids. He molests them, forces them into sexual situations and when he tires of them he strangles them and then dumps their bodies into a remote area to be picked clean by scavenger animals.
Is such a person forgivable?
I give the example of over privileged person running a company bankrupt because many can relate to working for a company and losing a job due to incompetent management. I give the example of child molestation and murder because most of us have a deep rooted, perhaps instinctual aversion to such things.
Why would a person ever do such awful things?
Understand the reason, identify it as also existing within yourself and all of the sudden forgiveness becomes hard to not do. We react most strongly against those parts of ourselves we have most deeply buried in our psyches. The boogeymen/women that emerge from our unconscious and give us nightmares.