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Is bad stuff always the result of Kamma?

edited November 2010 in Buddhism Basics
If negative stuff happens to me, is this because of negative actions I have committed in the past? Or sometimes is it just that "shit happens"?

Also, kind of related. how can I remove self-blaming from working through the negative kamma that has now ripened? I ask becuase I see meditation and mindfulness as a way to help me through difficult situations, but I'm also aware that this might be partly my Kamma that I'm here in the first place.

Comments

  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    No, not everything that happens to you is a result of karma. There are many other forces at play. Blaming all misfortune on karma is superstition.
  • edited November 2010
    Thank you shiftplus one. Following on from that then, if something negative comes up in my life, should it affect how I react to it whether its just something randomly happening to me or something that is my own kamma? Or should I react to it the same way no matter what? Should I consider it life trying to teach me a lesson?
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited November 2010
    If negative stuff happens to me, is this because of negative actions I have committed in the past? Or sometimes is it just that "shit happens"?

    Also, kind of related. how can I remove self-blaming from working through the negative kamma that has now ripened? I ask becuase I see meditation and mindfulness as a way to help me through difficult situations, but I'm also aware that this might be partly my Kamma that I'm here in the first place.
    you've got to differentiate bad stuff with suffering.
    suffering always happen because of karma
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited November 2010
    jlseagull90,

    Karma is just a law of cause and effect, not a kind of punishment. It could be said that all experience, either good or bad, is an effect and subject.

    My teacher made sure we understood that it is not in the experience that karma arises, but in the way our mind relates to the experience. The karma is like the feeling that arises as we interpret the phenomena, rather than the phenomena itself, which is inherently empty of any quality. If we leave all phenomena alone or engage skillfully, it never scratches us... much like a rose bush isn't painful in itself, but connecting with it unskillfully is painful.

    With warmth,

    Matt
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    It's cause and effect. If you keep punching yourself in the face and realise it hurts, it might help to think about what's going on and stop punching yourself in the face, right? If on the other hand, someone steals your wallet and you have to go through the hassle of getting all your cards replaced, then there's not much you could've done.

    I suppose when it comes to negative karma, reflect on your actions and learn from your mistakes.
    When it comes to misfortune, take the opportunity to observe how suffering arises and practice control over your feelings and emotions.
  • edited November 2010
    aMatt, I did not know that about Karma. Thats quite significant. I acted selfishly in the past and now the consequences of one particular selfish (and/or stupid) act have now come back to haunt me. But thats not Karma? Karma is how I relate to these consequences?
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Things that happen to you aren't negative or positive, they just are. It is your reaction to those events that frames them in a negative or positive light. Thus, whether something that happens to you is the result of karma or not depends entirely on your mindset when you acted/reacted.
  • edited November 2010
    Chrysalid is right. We never have enough perspective to say whether an event is truly good or bad. There is a famous parable I will quote:

    There once was a Taoist farmer. One day the Taoist farmer’s only horse broke out of the corral and ran away. The farmer’s neighbors, all hearing of the horse running away, came to the Taoist farmer's house to view the corral. As they stood there, the neighbors all said, "Oh what bad luck!" The Taoist farmer replied, "Maybe."

    About a week later, the horse returned, bringing with it a whole herd of wild horses, which the Taoist farmer and his son quickly corralled. The neighbors, hearing of the corralling of the horses, came to see for themselves. As they stood there looking at the corral filled with horses, the neighbors said, "Oh what good luck!" The Taoist farmer replied, "Maybe."

    A couple of weeks later, the Taoist farmer's son's leg was badly broken when he was thrown from a horse he was trying to break. A few days later the broken leg became infected and the son became delirious with fever. The neighbors, all hearing of the incident, came to see the son. As they stood there, the neighbors said, "Oh what bad luck!" The Taoist farmer replied, "Maybe."

    At that same time in China, there was a war going on between two rival warlords. The warlord of the Taoist farmer's village was involved in this war. In need of more soldiers, he sent one of his captains to the village to conscript young men to fight in the war. When the captain came to take the Taoist farmer's son he found a young man with a broken leg who was delirious with fever. Knowing there was no way the son could fight, the captain left him there. A few days later, the son's fever broke. The neighbors, hearing of the son's not being taken to fight in the war and of his return to good health, all came to see him. As they stood there, each one said, "Oh what good luck!" The Taoist farmer replied, "Maybe."
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited November 2010
    There two possibilities of bad things happening to you : 1. as you said, shit happens, you can't do a thing to change that...it just happens.
    2. something done by someone (including you) in the past triggered the chain of misfortunate events.
    And there should be a third possibility, but I think 2. includes 1. as a trigger, in some situations.

    Self-blaming can be removed by simply accepting what you did (if you clearly remember that you did something wrong) and try to repair the mistakes if they can be repaired. If you can't repair a mistake, then let it be. But, in most cases you shouldn't blame yourself for negative karma. Just accept the fact that wrong things happen at the wrong time and try to do something to get out of the bad situation.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited November 2010
    aMatt, I did not know that about Karma. Thats quite significant. I acted selfishly in the past and now the consequences of one particular selfish (and/or stupid) act have now come back to haunt me. But thats not Karma? Karma is how I relate to these consequences?

    It is only an interpretation of karma, of which there are many! :)

    As we cultivate a sense of compassion (latin: co-suffering) we no longer suffer, even when its painful. If we accept that pain might arise when we do "selfish (and/or stupid) act"s, the pain of it simply helps us keep a vigilant awareness of our environment. So be glad that its painful! I read of a boy who had no sense of touch, and often he worsened his injuries because he didn't know something had happened.

    If we recognize and include the feelings of others as we reflect on our actions (letting ourselves feel the empathy/compassion/co-suffering that arises in the moment) it will ideally help us to stabilize a co-creative openness that helps us make skillful, loving decisions in the moment... or 'off the mat' as my teacher would say. That way, the pain in the present won't re-seed more suffering in the future. We just let it all in and let it settle. The pool becomes clear.

    The pain understood, the karma is 'stepped out of', and its no longer 'haunting', just a reminder of how we acted foolishly... selfishly. Letting the karma settle (with tools like meditation) makes it so the 'haunting consequence' becomes just another effect... rich with information. So, we learn what we can from it, let the pain of it help us stay aware now, and move on. By earnestly working to settle our karma, it no longer depresses our joy. Well... not forever anyway. :) Does that make sense?

    With warmth,

    Matt
  • edited November 2010
    We have both Karma and Shit happens stuff going on. With very limited senses and a brain and body tossed together by random evolutionary processes , once in a while we are just plain going to miss something that hurts us.

    As far as self blame goes the above pretty much covers the random acts of life. As for Karma, I just try to remember that we have spent a very long time in Samsara & that due to this our habits and concepts are very ingraned and difficult to overcome.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited November 2010
    This is how I understand karma:
    All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage... If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him.
    straight from the Dhammapada
  • edited November 2010
    Good answers above.
    Good and bad happen to all.
    When bad happens, try to find the good that can come out of it. It really works to cultivate this attitude. Ask yourself, 'what good can come out of this?' Your answer at first may be, "Nothing!!" Ok, so try again to really find possible good. Come up with several possibilities. More than 95% of the time, you WILL find some. If not, just forget about it and move on . . . knowing that you have built character by making it through tough times, and that you will grow because of it.
    No one is exempt from bad things happening.
  • nanadhajananadhaja Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Thank you shiftplus one. Following on from that then, if something negative comes up in my life, should it affect how I react to it whether its just something randomly happening to me or something that is my own kamma? Or should I react to it the same way no matter what? Should I consider it life trying to teach me a lesson?

    You should still watch how you react to it.Whether it is the ripening of kamma or just stuff happening.Your reaction is what will cause virtuous or non virtuous kamma.If it is the ripening of previous non virtuous kamma then we of course accept that that is that and if we react in a positive fashion then we might say that we have extinguished some negative kamma.However if it is just stuff happening(and we may not know one way or another)we should still not react badly as this is non virtuous.
    Hope this helps a bit.
    With metta
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2010
    If negative stuff happens to me, is this because of negative actions I have committed in the past? Or sometimes is it just that "shit happens"?

    Maybe it's a bit of both. While the basic premise behind kamma is that there's a cause and effect relationship between our actions and how they're experienced, the commentarial tradition of Theravada explicitly denies that everything is the result of kamma. According to them, there are at least five distinct causal laws or processes (panca-niyamas) that operate in the physical and mental worlds: seasonal laws (utu-niyama), biological laws (bija-niyama), psychological laws (citta-niyama), kammic laws (kamma-niyama) and natural laws (dhamma-niyama).
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited November 2010
    aMatt wrote: »
    It is only an interpretation of karma, of which there are many! :)

    As we cultivate a sense of compassion (latin: co-suffering) we no longer suffer, even when its painful. If we accept that pain might arise when we do "selfish (and/or stupid) act"s, the pain of it simply helps us keep a vigilant awareness of our environment. So be glad that its painful! I read of a boy who had no sense of touch, and often he worsened his injuries because he didn't know something had happened.

    If we recognize and include the feelings of others as we reflect on our actions (letting ourselves feel the empathy/compassion/co-suffering that arises in the moment) it will ideally help us to stabilize a co-creative openness that helps us make skillful, loving decisions in the moment... or 'off the mat' as my teacher would say. That way, the pain in the present won't re-seed more suffering in the future. We just let it all in and let it settle. The pool becomes clear.

    The pain understood, the karma is 'stepped out of', and its no longer 'haunting', just a reminder of how we acted foolishly... selfishly. Letting the karma settle (with tools like meditation) makes it so the 'haunting consequence' becomes just another effect... rich with information. So, we learn what we can from it, let the pain of it help us stay aware now, and move on. By earnestly working to settle our karma, it no longer depresses our joy. Well... not forever anyway. :) Does that make sense?

    With warmth,

    Matt
    yes, very well said and explained, thank you!

    but the karma and pain eventually dissipate completely.

    When it does there are no more suffering and no more painful "reminders" at all, no more negative emotional reactions.
    All that is left is pure, uncompromised, unpolluted love.
    What allow us to make skillful decisions then isn't "painful reminders" but the wisdom, the absence of problems/issues to begin with; and also the understanding of ourselves and human nature, our experience.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Karma is only how reality appears. It is not the ultimate nature of reality.
  • edited November 2010
    Thanks Davy, I find that perspective very helpful. One good thing that has come out of this experience has been that it has put my other problems in perspective and realize they're not as bad as I thought! Unfortunately my unskillful action in the past has put things I care about in the present in jeopardy and now I don't know what to do. I definitely can't undo the unskillful action, and I don't know how I could make amends for it. All thats happened is that recently I've become aware of the possibility that bad stuff is coming my way as a result (e.g a threat to things I care about in the present) but I don't know what to do except sit, and wait for it to happen, or give up and abandon the things I care about in advance and move on to other things. Sorry I am speaking so vaguely, I don't really want to put the details up.

    Thanks for all your insights though, they are much appreciated.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited November 2010
    I don't know what to do except sit, and wait for it to happen
    when there is nothing we can do, that's usually the best thing to do.
    Sit and enjoy your life instead of worrying about something that may or may not happen...

    don't believe me?
    you never know, a shooting star may fall on planet earth and kill us all before whatever bad thing you are worrying about even have a chance to happen.
    Perhaps your last words then would be: "ha! I was worrying for nothing, that bad thing will not happen now since we will all die in 30 seconds. What a relief!!"

    ;)
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    edited November 2010
    If negative stuff happens to me, is this because of negative actions I have committed in the past? Or sometimes is it just that "shit happens"?

    Also, kind of related. how can I remove self-blaming from working through the negative kamma that has now ripened? I ask becuase I see meditation and mindfulness as a way to help me through difficult situations, but I'm also aware that this might be partly my Kamma that I'm here in the first place.

    Not everything that happens to you is karma. After that tsunami in Thailand some years back, somebody in my sister's dharma class asked if karma caused certain people to be in a natural disaster. The monk replied that it was not someone's karma to be in a natural disaster ... where karma came into play was how you FARED in the disaster.

    As for self-blaming, we need to develop acceptance and compassion for ourselves. This starts out by being aware, as we move through our day, of the ways in which we try to seek happiness and avoid unhappiness. Things we have done in the past that were less than "stellar" were done only in an attempt to be "happy", no matter how mis-guided our understanding was. This desire for happiness is what motivates all human beings, and as we begin to feel compassion for our own being, driven to seek out happiness, we can then start to see that all of us are just the same. This is the beginning of compassion for all sentient beings ... this connecting with our wish just to be happy.
  • edited November 2010
    There are many misunderstandings about karma and it certainly isn't some kind of punishment system.

    These articles by Ken Mcleod are well worth reading - KARMA, KARMA AND GROWTH, and KARMA DOESN'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING.........


    http://www.unfetteredmind.com/articles/karma.php



    .
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