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probably heard this a thousand times....
i am somewhat new to buddhism, and brand spankin' new to this site but i have a question...
why does it appear that enlightenment/ buddhas/arahants... etc.... seem to be ever distant unattainable phenomena? it seems no one can claim enlightenment without everyone jumping on them.... nirvana seems to become a dirty word.
it appears some have taken buddhanature and made it the atman... why? why make the darmha a never-ending rabbit hole?
if one cannot become enlightened(or it is so difficult to become so) why practice buddhism at all?
why does it appear that enlightenment/ buddhas/arahants... etc.... seem to be ever distant unattainable phenomena? it seems no one can claim enlightenment without everyone jumping on them.... nirvana seems to become a dirty word.
it appears some have taken buddhanature and made it the atman... why? why make the darmha a never-ending rabbit hole?
if one cannot become enlightened(or it is so difficult to become so) why practice buddhism at all?
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To put it into perspective, I was speaking with a Buddhist monk in Australia who said to me that he only knew of 3 people in Australia that had achieved stream entry - the first stage of awakening and all those were Buddhist monks. So, in a population of 22 million, 3 monks and 0 lay people. And that's only the first stage of awakening, not full awakening! And yet here we have people claiming enlightenment almost on a daily basis!
Does that mean we should give up? It's a question that I have struggled with myself in the past. But once again, it was a Buddhist monk who supplied a satisfactory answer. When we meditate, we expect "special" things to happen all the time but do we expect to go to work every day and get paid every day? No. Likewise, every meditation is not payday. It's necessary to put in the work to reap the results sometime later. The same with awakening. It is necessary to put in the work - it might be decades here in this lifetime or across many lifetimes - but one day payday will come. It's not hopeless and it's not impossible but it also is not trivial.
The more attachment to life and its pleasures, the more difficult to detach. The more we lie to ourselves, the more difficult to see the truth.
Be honest with yourself, practice diligently and try not to be dissuaded. There's much more hope for all of us than some give credit, and pessimism is our worst enemy.
If he is just human, his enlightenment is more relevant and resonant with everyone else. The more removed from every other human buddha becomes, the less worthwile the path he sets for humanity.
Is that a little clearer?
For me it is not about a distant goal but about the fruits of my practice I experience right now. My perspective and outlook have shifted quite a bit, in a very positive way. I have told my wife that if my insight deepens no further than where I am at right now, it is still worth it. It has been that positive for me. The end result will be what it is.
With Metta,
Todd
Words applied to the Buddha such as "omnipotent", supernatural feats attributed to him and stories that he (and others) told may be metaphorical in nature (or not), but he's never confused as being anything other than a man, albeit a very focused man. The freedom that he obtained is the same freedom that anyone who realizes this full enlightenment, at the end of this path, obtains. It's no different; the only difference is that he's our teacher, the one who started the passing-on of this means to awakening.
Do you have any examples of what you're actually talking about, or is it just a feeling that you get? Sources are valuable, if there's an actual debate to be had!
I tend to approach the practice in much the same way, I think that is how any layperson should approach it.
Cloud,
i don't think it is a problem in the teachings, it is a problem with the current perceptions of those teachings, however the idea that there is a wealth of supernatural attributes would imply that Buddha is also supernatural. Just google "supernatural Buddha"
and watch how many hits you recieve.
If we don't particularly believe in supernatural aspects, it's easy to see how those aspects could be metaphorical in nature or added-in by those who believed them.
The Buddha stated "I teach only of suffering and the cessation of suffering", and he made it very clear that he was only a man from day one. He didn't want anyone to get any delusions of him being anything else, because his teachings were for other human beings to obtain enlightenment in the same way that he (a human being) obtained enlightenment.
We can't help perceptions, but it's still fairly easy to find the truth of the matter if you actually study the teachings and the different traditions and their history. We're not going to lose the way to enlightenment anytime soon. There's still no perception of the Buddha as being a god, at least not one that I've ever heard even on this forum (that has practitioners of all traditions), so your point regarding that doesn't seem to have ground... unless of course you're going from some source, like I said.
If there's no source, maybe it's just your perception that is awry? Just saying...
my perception may be arwy, but let me ask you, if the buddha's teachings work, where are the arahants? if none can be found, the teachings don't work. that simple. if no one can claim liberation, it is implied to be impossible, or ficticious.
if they do work, (which i believe they do) and arahants are present, perhaps they remain silent from those who would just call them liars.
Monastic life would have faded out long ago if monks were not learning something and becoming free from suffering, don't you think? If we do not think enlightenment attainable, then Buddhism is either not for us or is just to be a system of belief like any of the other world religions. Obviously monastic life continues on and many believe enlightenment is possible, and follow the Noble Eightfold Path for the purpose of awakening themselves and others (whether in a monastery or in lay life).
I'm thinking that it's definitely your perception.
Buddhism isn't for everyone, and not every Buddhist tradition is either. Study them all before you decide.
i think this would probably do a great deal of good for everyone, just like it did for buddha, who had to "make a claim" in the first place to be recognized as.... the buddha.
i also have no objection to the monastic life, or its relevence,or effectiveness, however if one cannot ask if one is attaining enligtenment in a temple, then where can he?
I wish you all the best luck with whatever you want out of Buddhism or religion or life, but understand that it's intensively personal... introspection is the heart of cultivating wisdom. You have to find it within yourself. Be well!
They are the Zen masters. Good-bye.
this is what i was looking for.... human beings becoming enlightened.
oh one more thing... i apologize if i offended any one,and you specifically, cloud. sincerest apologies.
Crystal!
He is only human just like you and me.
Perhaps, but who are we to say? Their minds are unfathomable. Ajahn Brahm (you might want to youtube him coz he likes to discuss these sorts of issues) posed exactly the same question. He asked whether anyone believed there were any arahants. His answer was that there were and that the Buddhist life would be pointless if arahantship was unattainable. Exactly what you have said. But, you won't find them in the corridors or "power", you won't find them in the western materialistic countries (not to my knowledge). You will find them in the forests of Thailand, Burma and other more out of the way countries. They won't come up to you and declare themselves but they will be there when you need them.
There will always be new, different experiences coming up which lead to suffering. There will always be new forms of suffering to practice with. For instance, it's doubtful that Gautama Buddha could have rested in the experience of being waterboarded, at least at first. It just wasn't something which came up back then.
Practice on this contingent basis is still incredibly useful, though.
The therevada perspective (as far as I know) is that buddha was a man who became free from ignorance and destroyed suffering in the process. Kind of similar in mahayana but they have the idea of the 3 kayas: nirmanakaya( which is in the flesh historical buddha that any common person can see), Samboghakaya (the 'enjoyment body' which a bodhisattva comes face to face with in their transformation?), and dharmakaya. The dharmakaya is the emptiness nature? of the buddha and it is said to radiate to all beings sort of like the Christians say it rains on all beings the just and unjust but a different vibe I feel. I've also heard it described as truth in all directions. The emptiness nature is how things are less solid and more fluid. Non-attachment is a word that springs to mind. Due to emptiness we must continually open to the next moment. And from that many of the arisings such as feelings and a body come. The 12 dependent links and the accompanying wisdom transformations of them come to mind. The 3 kayas are said to be fused together and inseparable just as are wisdom and compassion. That fusion is sometimes called the fourth kaya.
The buddha nature is exactly emptiness, and it is exactly saying that you have the nature needed to become a buddha. As Trungpa Rinpoche said:
In the material world, the equivalent would be
the enlighten person would be rich beyond anything imaginable.
And the newcomer would be poor.
The newcomer will be much better off after making his first $100, his first hundred thousand, his first million.
You don't need to become billionaire before benefiting from the money.
I practice Buddhism because I have seen the benifits to my life that it can bring each day. While still very much a novice, I use what are very direct and practical tools that have been developed over thousands of years to be a better person and to limit the harm that I do to others.
Enlightenment is, quite honestly not something that I reflect on most of the time. However, it does help to have Teachers on the path at different levels to help maintain my motivation to use the Dharma teaching when things become difficult.
When I look at the life of the Buddha, read a book by H.H. The Dalai Lama or receve a teching from the Abbot or one of the other Lamas at my Monestary it gives me something to aim toward that is better than where I am now.
The ultimite goal of becomeing Enlightened , while very far off gives a structure and goal to my day to day practice and application of the Dharma Teachings.
That is how I look at it overall