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Buddhism simply a means to an end?
Buddhism's goal, as far as I can see, is to end suffering. This is done by meditation, generally, which changes one's mind/brain.
If technology were to progress to the state where you could manipulate your own consciousness, wouldn't this be a much more efficient path to enlightenment?
If technology were to progress to the state where you could manipulate your own consciousness, wouldn't this be a much more efficient path to enlightenment?
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Might I say, then, that a wise use of my life would be to bring this technology about?
Understood, but it is also a very gradual and time consuming process. Wouldn't instant results be preferred, if physically possible?
I've flown on an airplane to Florida in 6 hours, and I've ridden my motorcycle to Florida over three weeks. I grew and learned much more from the three week journey than from the 6 hour one.
So:
Yes, exactly.
Technology is progressed from living beings conscious mind, unless it is developed from a meditative mind. Even if it is so, it still a prerequisite for the conscious mind to tune into meditative mind in order to be achieved the state of natural "manipulation"
I wholeheartedly agree that not everything is best in the shortest time possible.
But when it comes to eliminating suffering for humanity and all sentient beings, it definitely is.
The only way technology could come into being to do so would be after we've already awakened as a species, which would make the technology moot!
We should concentrate on awakening, which isn't that difficult if we get our heads out of the clouds and simply see what is there. Honestly.
I assume "awakening" must refer in the physical realm to some sort of brain activity (assuming mind and brain are connected, which they are). How are we to know that such awakening is really the greatest state our mind can achieve? It is still limited by our evolutionary hardware.
That's a pretty lofty task to put on Buddhism's shoulders.
For me, personally, I have no "goal" for Buddhism, but if I did, I'm not sure I'd say it was to eliminate suffering for all humanity. I think we each individually have to work on reducing suffering for ourselves personally...which requires the journey of introspection/self-awareness/meditating/etc.
I guess we have to get there first before we can judge. If we don't find it satisfactory, we can work on something better, right? (lol) It's certainly the highest level of peace that any teachings propose one can come to in this lifetime; or rather the only teachings that offer a clear path to realizing that peace for one's self. This isn't armchair philosophy or speculation. The only way to know, is to practice and find out.
We are the Borg, You will be assimalated, Resistance is Futile.
We will add your biological and technilogical distinctivness to our own, your culture will adapt to service ours.
I think the meditation approach might be a better way to go
(those implants are itchy)
tinkering with technology is seeking for Buddha outside of the mind. I can't imagine tinkering with our karma and emptiness of our intrinsic nature with technology is possible...
however, if its somehow achievable as a skillful means, then homage to the bodhisattva that achieves it.
We already do have the technology. It's called drugs. The whole point of the LSD experiment was to see if chemicals could speed the process. People have been manipulating their consciousness since we learned how to ferment and the interesting effects of certain natural drugs found in plants, for that matter.
During a terrible period in the mid twentieth century before many of the drugs were discovered, doctors also tried using surgery to directly change one's mind/brain. The patient was certainly much calmer, among other things.
I think you mean, some sort of machine that can change who we are permanently and with fine control, unlike a scalpal. Strap someone into a chair, stick a helmet on him, and flip a switch. False memories and other changes would have to take place as it physically rewired parts of your brain.
Whatever got up from the chair wouldn't be you with a clear mind, it would be you with a changed brain. This would be a nightmare. All any physical change, drugs or scalpel or computer guided electrochemical mapping, it is only capable of changing the Form part of the skandhas.
You go and test the theory by achieving it to see if it is true.
Not really man. Have you heard of the "Experience Machine" concept?
False memories? Not necessarily.
And funny you say the word nightmare. Buddhism is sort of a nightmare for me. I feel I'm losing myself more and more. It's just a slower form of brainwash.
This is very close to what I mean. How can you say you wouldn't have a clear mind? Couldn't technology also influence the parts of our brain wired for reasoning and judgment? It's not like our brains are perfect to begin with, meditation and technology are two different methods of achieving similar results.
I don't understand how this applies, please elaborate.
What result? If a technology could bring about a "result" then it wouldn't have anything to do with enlightenment.
Enlightenment certainly must be a result. It is a state of mind. And because it is a state of mind, it is a certain physical quality of the brain.
I feel like I don't know what I am anymore, or what I stand for. I feel I'm harder on myself, and thus am more angry at myself at times.
I've always had a healthy ego and lots of pride in my identity. Now I feel I'm wrong to feel that way and that I can't keep a lot of the things I liked about myself.
Why?
Because it is a state of mind and a state of mind exists in a present moment.
The question is whether Buddhism is simply a means to an end. It seems to me blindingly obvious that it is. After all, as Gandhi put it "God has no religion" or, if you prefer, buddhas aren't Buddhist.
The discussion about 'technologies' may be of interest but I'm not sure how it addresses the question.
So I assume the end is the abolishment of suffering, correct?
The Dharma was not 'devised' by the Buddha Shakyamuni but revealed by him. The means to the end of suffering is something else: the Noble Eightfold Path.
Whatever you can call it. They were both his conclusions.
I certainly think I can come close. Technology is pretty unbelievable.
Would you say there may be a better method to eliminate suffering than the Noble Eightfold Path?
I have to slightly disagree with you here.
I think what the Buddha did was to train his mind so that he could eventualy see the true nature of reality. Then he took this information and organised it into a coherent format so that others could have access to it no matter what their current level of understanding is.
He did not conclude what reality is, he simply was able to see it.
Maybe his assumptions on how to train his mind to see the true nature of reality were wrong.
Either way, it was still a decision, it was still a personal conclusion.
But you are talking to someone who does not deify Buddha, and does not epitomize him as the unequivocal role model. Imo he was just a man, and as a mean, he did a lot of great things, and left his contribution. But he was just a man, just like you and me. A slave to his 6 senses just like we all are. That's just my opinion.
Excellent. That's the whole point. Well done.
And I'm not any happier in the process.
I'm just getting started with Buddhism, but I assume this is because you're still attached to your ego and are afraid to give it up.
I believe I'm in the same boat as you, though.
There's that pesky "I" again. Quel dommage. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Or maybe it's the absence of a state of mind.
The only way to really learn what enlightenment is is from a real teacher. Otherwise all I know about enlightenment is what I've heard about it from other "Buddhists" who are are as touchy, snobbish and selfish as I am.
Are you saying real teachers aren't Buddhists?! :eek:
Agreed. Good offline Buddhist teachers are important to keep us on track.
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I'm not sure how you got that from my post.
By reading your post facetiously. Obviously at least some buddhists are not snobbish, touchy, etc. or they would not be real teachers. :-)
Right, because buddhism advocates not caring what happens to us...
The absence of a state of mind would be death, which would imply mass suicide is our best course of action.
You can reason certain things, such as happens in Western philosophy, and enlightenment must be a state of mind.
A state of mind implies that there is one there that is perceiving it that is distinct from it. Enlightenment is not a state of mind, it is the real nature of the experient freed from confusion.
A state of mind does not imply a subject. A state of mind can very much be experience freed from the I. Enlightenment requires a brain.
The limited knowledge I can present on here will just continue in a cyclic debate.
The Buddha is not "Deified." He was a MAN who, through profound dedication, determination, intelligence, and perseverance, discovered the path to liberation and subsequently illuminated this path in his teachings to others. It is fine and constructive to hold a degree of skepticism to all doctrines and teachings, until the application of those teachings proves fruitful.
To suggest that the Buddha's methods were "wrong," either indicate that you have possibly discovered a grander and more applicable method for attaining enlightenment, or you have simply not taken the proper effort to walk the 8-fold path and realize its virtues to their extent. If on the other hand, you have practiced the 8-fold path with diligence and sincerity and find that it is flawed or incorrect and does not lead to your happiness and well-being (which as a Buddhist I find extremely unlikely) then maybe you should try seeking out a new path.
Lastly, to state that the Buddha was "A slave to his 6 senses just like we all are," is an insult to the memory and lineage of the Awoken one and a complete misunderstanding of the entire purpose of liberation and enlightenment.