Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
I think that if our members were to spend much time around Buddhist Inner Asia, they'd find the Buddhism there to be a lot wilder and woolier than the neat and tidy package they get at their local sangha and from the dharma books they read.
Recommended viewing: "Milarepa", on DVD, covering the 1st half of his life. (Part II was supposed to come out last year, but hasn't yet.) "Oracles of Ladakh". (Not sure if that one's on DVD.) Turns out most oracles in the Tibetan regions are women. This is pure Inner Asian shamanism. Check it out if you dare. "Genghis Blues", about life in the Republic of Tuva, N of Mongolia, nominally Buddhist. "The Tibetan Book of the Dead".
There aren't spells in Vajrayana; even the more esoteric stuff like tummo is natural, even if it's not known to the novices.
Tummo hasn't been proven by science (only documented, but not explained), so it qualifies as magic by the OP's definition. Science hasn't studied the Kundalini/Inner Fire phenomenon that is the basis of tummo. It would be nice if scientists somewhere did research it, though.
Better late than never. Besides, you said earlier, "not everything that is thought to exist, exists" in response to my list of phenomena, so I couldn't let that go uncommented upon (ha ha, =jab jab= *poke*)
So, to sum up, tummo, acupuncture,hands-on healing, clairvoyance, and communicating with the deceased are magic, by the OP's definition. So are trance-walking, spells, healing with potions made of gemstones (someone mentioned that, except that's been proven scientifically, so we can actually take this off the list), and prayer, defined earlier as a type of spell.
That reminds me: Larry Dossey, MD, did a controlled study of the effect of prayer on severely ill patients in a hospital, and found that the prayed-for group recovered faster. He published that in one of his books.
Hey, it's been fun, gang! Too bad one of the moderators chose to "sink" this topic so it wouldn't pop up to the top anymore, with new contributions. Apparently somebody doesn't approve of the topic. I think the discussion was handled very well (once it got off the ground), though. It's been a pleasure.
This idea of prayers as spells intrigues me. That means that when people pray for their loved ones, they're casting a spell? If they pray out loud, certainly they're performing an incantation. What a fascinating perspective.
I think this is possibly the most important point to come out of this discussion. If prayer is a form of spell, and prayer has been documented as generating measurable results in those prayed for (see Larry Dossey's book: "The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine"), then spells are real, spells work. We don't know how they work, exactly, but Dossey, and possibly others, have documented that they do work.
Dossey has another book out on this subject called: "Prayer Is Good Medicine: How To Reap The Healing Benefits of Prayer". I see some of his books are available on Amazon used for just a few dollars, or under a dollar, even.
"Practising Buddhists aren't like Harry Potter and his pals!"
Well, there you may or may not be wrong, friend. Everybody is different and has different views on things. Now I am just a mere Agnostic-Atheist, hold really no beliefs. Now, some Buddhists may feel as though energy could be transfered via different means, resulting in what one may refer to as magic. Neo-pagans hold belief in this and aren't "like Harry Potter and his pals!" which would seem to me like quite a bigotted remark if you would think of them that way. They meditate as well, but don't exactly have the same beliefs. It was just a simple question on what each of you thought about what people nowadays consider to be magic. Sort of an opening to a debate such as, "No, I don't believe in that because of... so and so..." or "I believe it is possible in some forms because of... so and so..." There was no need for assumptions, or even saying it had nothing to do with Buddhism. I believe it DID have something to do with Buddhism, considering I was asking BUDDHISTS on how their thoughts in regard to this. Do they believe that certain gems have healing properties? Do they believe that with enough concentration energy could be transfered into different forms that, as I said before, could be considered as magic? Thoughts on herbal potions and such? No need to start assuming things and giving very curt answers as well. Do I believe in that stuff? Not as of now, but my mindset is that I really can't be sure of anything. It was just a friendly, very-open discussion I was trying to encourage, but oh well. Off I go I suppose.
@MindGate, don't take it so personally. The responses are a continuation of the discussion you started. You've got your answer, most Buddhists don't concern themselves with magic. Buddha didn't teach magic or speak of its validity, AFAIK. For that reason, it has nothing to do with Buddhism. If you know of a sutra which has anything to do with magic, then please share.
§ Supranormal Powers Verbatim quote :: "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers. He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. Just as a skilled potter or his assistant could craft from well-prepared clay whatever kind of pottery vessel he likes, or as a skilled ivory-carver or his assistant could craft from well-prepared ivory any kind of ivory-work he likes, or as a skilled goldsmith or his assistant could craft from well-prepared gold any kind of gold article he likes; in the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers... He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.
"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.
Hello, Mindgate? It would really help if you could clarify what comes under the heading of "magic" for you. Energy transferring, which you mentioned, is real, ask any acupuncturist.
What about the Tibetan State Oracle? Is clairvoyance, "magic"? Or just a form of giftedness, like perfect musical pitch?
Music stimulates the right side of the brain, which is the seat of "paranormal" abilities, feelings of oneness and bliss, creativity and intuition. Some things that seem like "magic" have a scientific basis.
the seat of paranormal skills is Dharma Dhatu (the Eye of Dharma, alias the Third Eye)... the union of the sixth and seventh chakras.
I have a CD from the monastery of which I met the Abbot from India. Gelung-pa Monastery. In the CD they clearly claim to have had monks who could walk through walls and other things in the past little while.
There was an article in Scientific American a couple of years ago explaining the principle behind distance healing, BTW. Turns out they've known about it since the 1930's. I'll see if I can find the article.
informational entanglement of "quarky particles" (or as "I" like to call 'em... "boronas" ...spanish, not known direct translation; "an element of bread, of lower... mass than bread")
I would personally consider clairvoyance and hands-on healing to be "magic" for lack of a better definition. I sort of mean magic in a vague way. Telekinesis, telepathy, speaking with the dead, etc, I would think to be "magic-related" in some way.
By spells I'm not completely referring to things like "Shades of darkness, grant me vision in thy realm of Shadow!" kind of thing (taken from http://www.spellsofmagic.com).
Even prayers could be considered spells to some extent because they are believed control natural forces in such a manner that science can not currently prove.
mantras using mudras (seals) may guide you in a better way through your research...
No disrespect to you, but how does the whole communicating with the dead thing work? I mean, Buddhist-ly speaking, if we don't have personal souls, how can "I" exist after death? And if you are a believer in literal reincarnation, why did the soul not reincarnate? Just wondering.
in samsåra there's triLaksana (3 marks of existance), in nirvåna there's bodhicitta (mind of awakening).
The soul, spirit, or whatever doesn't necessarily reincarnate right away. It hangs out in the bardo for awhile, we don't know how long, and it probably varies by each case. (...)
in my case it was 3 (going) and 8 years (returning).
I think this is possibly the most important point to come out of this discussion. If prayer is a form of spell, and prayer has been documented as generating measurable results in those prayed for (see Larry Dossey's book: "The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine"), then spells are real, spells work. We don't know how they work, exactly, but Dossey, and possibly others, have documented that they do work.
(silent) mantras using mudras (astral hand mudras are more efficient), written in runes/devanagari (just chose... 3 to 28 runes)... left un-translated, just because.
I think that if our members were to spend much time around Buddhist Inner Asia, they'd find the Buddhism there to be a lot wilder and woolier than the neat and tidy package they get at their local sangha and from the dharma books they read.
Recommended viewing: "Milarepa", on DVD, covering the 1st half of his life. (Part II was supposed to come out last year, but hasn't yet.) "Oracles of Ladakh". (Not sure if that one's on DVD.) Turns out most oracles in the Tibetan regions are women. This is pure Inner Asian shamanism. Check it out if you dare. (...) Enjoy BTW, OP Mindgate, I LOVE this topic!
Palmita, a deceased relative (son of my "prior-prior vessel"); was a practitioner of some form of "magic" (after christian'ism... magic lost many, many practitioners in the Western Hemisphere), most probably italian-Seiðr.
So, just wondering, what are your thoughts on magic? Such as... well, spells, element bending, potions, etc, or anything along those lines? Just curious. :P
For entertainment!!
"The Sakya people will be massacred in a week," replied the Buddha sadly. "They had broken international protocol and insulted a Royal Prince from their neighbourhood Kingdom. They never felt sorry of what they did nor gave an apology. No matter what his ancestors was, a human being should be treated with respect. Therefore, the karma of the Sakya people had ripened and there is little I can do to help." "But, that is my country," protested Maha-Maudgalyayana, one of Buddha's Senior student. "I will do whatever I can to help Kapilavastu out!" "It is their sin and no one will escape the law of karma." said the Buddha. "If they do not confess that they are wrong, no one can save them!" The Kingdom of Kapilavastu was now surrounded by the Kasolan troops. Maha-Maudgalyayana, an expert in performing mystic powers, flew into the city and put 500 Sakyas into his begging bowl. Then, he took the bowl with him and flew out to safety. But, when he open his begging bowl and looked inside, there weren't any people. All he had was a bowl of bloody water! Now, he understood that the Law of karma is the supreme law of the Universe and no one is above it! After many days of war, General Mahanama gave in and surrendered. During ancient times, "surrender" also meant death and King Virudhaka immediately ordered a massacre of all 30,000 Sakyas. "No matter what, " said General Mahanama to King Virudhaka, "you are still my adopted grandson. I have a last request." "What is it?" "It is not easy to kill that many people. I beg you to let some people out. I am now going to submerge into the river while my people are fleeing. Once I come out of the water, you can start the killing." said General Mahanama. "Good," King Virudhaka bursted into laughter. "I want to see how long can you stay under water." So the Sakyas started to flee, and King Virudhaka laughed loudly at the embarrassment of his enemies, thinking that it was funny to see them getting out in a mess. But when most of the Sakyas had fled, King Virudhaka, became curious, "how come General Mahanama stays under water for so long?" He sent his soldiers to check it out. "Your Majesty, " replied his soldier after the investigation, "General Mahanama is dead. He gave up his life to save his own people." bursting into tears as he made his report.
Thank you, Vincenzi, for the Shamanapala Sutra quote, fascinating. Some practicing Buddhists are like Harry Potter and friends, but that side of Buddhism doesn't get taught to Western students, so many are unaware of that side of Buddhism. However, I do recall some references in Buddhist teachings to the fact that "siddhis" can be experienced at a certain stage in the meditation practice (clairvoyance, etc.), but that one should not become attached to them. One should regard them as just a passing phase in the developing meditation practice. So it means that advanced practitioners/teachers know that paranormal abilities are part and parcel of Buddhist practice, perhaps more like a side-effect of it. In fact, one of our members posted a couple of months ago that he was experiencing this phase in his meditation.
"Practising Buddhists aren't like Harry Potter and his pals !."
Thank you, Vincenzi, for the Shamanapala Sutra quote, fascinating. Some practicing Buddhists are like Harry Potter and friends, but that side of Buddhism doesn't get taught to Western students, so many are unaware of that side of Buddhism. However, I do recall some references in Buddhist teachings to the fact that "siddhis" can be experienced at a certain stage in the meditation practice (clairvoyance, etc.), but that one should not become attached to them. One should regard them as just a passing phase in the developing meditation practice. So it means that advanced practitioners/teachers know that paranormal abilities are part and parcel of Buddhist practice, perhaps more like a side-effect of it. In fact, one of our members posted a couple of months ago that he was experiencing this phase in his meditation.
"Practising Buddhists aren't like Harry Potter and his pals !."
This seems biased, or simply uninformed.
indeed. i suggest you read the whole sutra; the last fruit is Nirvåna.
"In fact, one of our members posted a couple of months ago that he was experiencing this phase in his meditation. " OH??? :om: :eek:
It was a whole thread. Did you miss that one, Shanyin? You could probably look it up on old "Meditation" topics. (No levitation was involved, though.)
I've heard that Einstein said we're all capable of turning matter into energy, and energy back into matter. Ask your Nobel Prize winner about that. (If you get an answer, please get back to us.)
Well, it just goes to show that science knows a lot more than it lets on in school textbooks, and that there are explanations for some phenomena that have been labeled "paranormal". I wish they'd teach some of this cool, off-the-wall science in schools. It might turn more kids on to science.
How great that a) this thread got revived for awhile and b) one of the moderators un-sank it, which means maybe the topic has regained some legitimacy or approval?
Buddhologist Ronald Davidson writes in his book, "Indian Esoteric Buddhism", "...monks became increasingly attracted by the structures of Indian medieval life. The [tantric] texts themselves introduce monks to the themes of power, personality, eroticism, violence in defense of the dharma, spells and the mythology of absolute supremacy."
So we see that spells in Vajrayana came not only from Bon, but from medieval India.
Spells, I might add, are not exclusively a bad thing. There are good spells, such as wishes for long life, healing spells, prayers of various sorts. Unfortunately, too often those in command of these skills use them for egoistic purposes, to harmful ends. Very non-Buddhistic. Humans will be human, I guess. The lust for power can be irresistable to some.
Unfortunately, too often those in command of these skills use them for egoistic purposes, to harmful ends. Very non-Buddhistic. Humans will be human, I guess. The lust for power can be irresistable to some.
Could you please give me an example of someone using spells for egoistic purposes? In what circumstance?
Well, some people don't believe June Campbell, but she and other women have said that lamas put spells on them to intimidate them into maintaining secrecy about illicit activities. Not that I want to start a debate about June Campbell...
What do you think about the Shamanapala Sutra that Vincenzi presented, on the subject of supranormal powers?
OK. There is probably no benefit to revisiting that discussion as we have been over that ground and will just have to agree to disagree. As the entire edifice of vajrayana rests on the bodhisattva vow, I would think that it is not at all widespread to use magical powers to harm sentient beings.
I think that the Samaññaphala Sutta sounds like what I have been taught about the siddhis. All Indian traditions speak of similar benefits (or side effects if you will) to meditative concentration. There are of course the stories in the vinaya of how Maudgalyana could fly and demonstrated his magical abilities, leading to the Buddha prohibiting monks from doing so. The magical powers of the Mahasiddhas and tertons are also similarly well-documented.
These things don't seem so unbelievable to me. Now George Bush and Dick Cheney getting elected to two terms, that seems entirely beyond imagining to me. Truth is stranger than fiction.
These things don't seem so unbelievable to me. Now George Bush and Dick Cheney getting elected to two terms, that seems entirely beyond imagining to me. Truth is stranger than fiction.
I agree on both points--siddhis are real. Bush/Cheney cheated their way to the Oval Office both times, that's been investigated and documented by Congress and others. The American people did not vote those guys into office, let the record show.
manaḥ-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation)
...that may probe useful. imagine all the oil saved! think of the environment!
on a more serious note, recollection of past lives is (I think, in addition to being free of the 10 fetters) another prerequisite for Nirvana.
so... deva namanarati is pleiadi star cluster... astral travel (is more static than "travel", but if works) was practiced by many... including gnostic christians.
(clearly I've been having a nose through some older threads ) This one is fascinating. I've just ordered 'The Knowledge of Healing' on DVD. Thanks to @Dakini for the suggestions.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
(clearly I've been having a nose through some older threads ) ....
No schyt Sherlock.... when you come to the one by Brian that says "welcome to our brand new forum!" - stop.
(clearly I've been having a nose through some older threads ) This one is fascinating. I've just ordered 'The Knowledge of Healing' on DVD. Thanks to @Dakini for the suggestions.
You picked a good one, and a fun one! This has been one of my historical favorites on the forum.
Dande, after you view the film, maybe you could open a discussion of it in the "Arts" category. I'd love to discuss it with you.
(clearly I've been having a nose through some older threads ) This one is fascinating. I've just ordered 'The Knowledge of Healing' on DVD. Thanks to @Dakini for the suggestions.
You picked a good one, and a fun one! This has been one of my historical favorites on the forum.
Dande, after you view the film, maybe you could open a discussion of it in the "Arts" category. I'd love to discuss it with you.
Ok, yes I will. I've ordered it from the U.S. and I live in London so not sure how long it will take to arrive, but once it has and I've watched it I shall start the thread. I've also put 'Milarepa' on my lovefilm list
Comments
Recommended viewing: "Milarepa", on DVD, covering the 1st half of his life. (Part II was supposed to come out last year, but hasn't yet.)
"Oracles of Ladakh". (Not sure if that one's on DVD.) Turns out most oracles in the Tibetan regions are women. This is pure Inner Asian shamanism. Check it out if you dare.
"Genghis Blues", about life in the Republic of Tuva, N of Mongolia, nominally Buddhist.
"The Tibetan Book of the Dead".
Enjoy
Besides, you said earlier, "not everything that is thought to exist, exists" in response to my list of phenomena, so I couldn't let that go uncommented upon
(ha ha, =jab jab= *poke*)
So, to sum up, tummo, acupuncture,hands-on healing, clairvoyance, and communicating with the deceased are magic, by the OP's definition. So are trance-walking, spells, healing with potions made of gemstones (someone mentioned that, except that's been proven scientifically, so we can actually take this off the list), and prayer, defined earlier as a type of spell.
That reminds me: Larry Dossey, MD, did a controlled study of the effect of prayer on severely ill patients in a hospital, and found that the prayed-for group recovered faster. He published that in one of his books.
Hey, it's been fun, gang! Too bad one of the moderators chose to "sink" this topic so it wouldn't pop up to the top anymore, with new contributions. Apparently somebody doesn't approve of the topic. I think the discussion was handled very well (once it got off the ground), though. It's been a pleasure.
make water, make fire
...and, have you read the Samañaphala Sutra (Fruits of the Contemplative Life... Discourse)?
translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html
§ Supranormal Powers Verbatim quote ::
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers. He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. Just as a skilled potter or his assistant could craft from well-prepared clay whatever kind of pottery vessel he likes, or as a skilled ivory-carver or his assistant could craft from well-prepared ivory any kind of ivory-work he likes, or as a skilled goldsmith or his assistant could craft from well-prepared gold any kind of gold article he likes; in the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers... He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.
"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.
I've also read that the Buddha said "one who attempts to perform miracles, is no longer my disciple".
in nirvåna there's bodhicitta (mind of awakening).
She lived some of her life in a lake.
"The Sakya people will be massacred in a week," replied the Buddha sadly. "They had broken international protocol and insulted a Royal Prince from their neighbourhood Kingdom. They never felt sorry of what they did nor gave an apology. No matter what his ancestors was, a human being should be treated with respect. Therefore, the karma of the Sakya people had ripened and there is little I can do to help."
"But, that is my country," protested Maha-Maudgalyayana, one of Buddha's Senior student. "I will do whatever I can to help Kapilavastu out!"
"It is their sin and no one will escape the law of karma." said the Buddha. "If they do not confess that they are wrong, no one can save them!"
The Kingdom of Kapilavastu was now surrounded by the Kasolan troops. Maha-Maudgalyayana, an expert in performing mystic powers, flew into the city and put 500 Sakyas into his begging bowl. Then, he took the bowl with him and flew out to safety. But, when he open his begging bowl and looked inside, there weren't any people. All he had was a bowl of bloody water! Now, he understood that the Law of karma is the supreme law of the Universe and no one is above it!
After many days of war, General Mahanama gave in and surrendered. During ancient times, "surrender" also meant death and King Virudhaka immediately ordered a massacre of all 30,000 Sakyas.
"No matter what, " said General Mahanama to King Virudhaka, "you are still my adopted grandson. I have a last request."
"What is it?"
"It is not easy to kill that many people. I beg you to let some people out. I am now going to submerge into the river while my people are fleeing. Once I come out of the water, you can start the killing." said General Mahanama.
"Good," King Virudhaka bursted into laughter. "I want to see how long can you stay under water."
So the Sakyas started to flee, and King Virudhaka laughed loudly at the embarrassment of his enemies, thinking that it was funny to see them getting out in a mess. But when most of the Sakyas had fled, King Virudhaka, became curious, "how come General Mahanama stays under water for so long?" He sent his soldiers to check it out.
"Your Majesty, " replied his soldier after the investigation, "General Mahanama is dead. He gave up his life to save his own people." bursting into tears as he made his report.
"Practising Buddhists aren't like Harry Potter and his pals !."
This seems biased, or simply uninformed.
i suggest you read the whole sutra;
the last fruit is Nirvåna.
OH???
:om: :eek:
I've heard that Einstein said we're all capable of turning matter into energy, and energy back into matter. Ask your Nobel Prize winner about that.
Buddhologist Ronald Davidson writes in his book, "Indian Esoteric Buddhism",
"...monks became increasingly attracted by the structures of Indian medieval life. The [tantric] texts themselves introduce monks to the themes of power, personality, eroticism, violence in defense of the dharma, spells and the mythology of absolute supremacy."
So we see that spells in Vajrayana came not only from Bon, but from medieval India.
Spells, I might add, are not exclusively a bad thing. There are good spells, such as wishes for long life, healing spells, prayers of various sorts. Unfortunately, too often those in command of these skills use them for egoistic purposes, to harmful ends. Very non-Buddhistic. Humans will be human, I guess. The lust for power can be irresistable to some.
What do you think about the Shamanapala Sutra that Vincenzi presented, on the subject of supranormal powers?
I think that the Samaññaphala Sutta sounds like what I have been taught about the siddhis. All Indian traditions speak of similar benefits (or side effects if you will) to meditative concentration. There are of course the stories in the vinaya of how Maudgalyana could fly and demonstrated his magical abilities, leading to the Buddha prohibiting monks from doing so. The magical powers of the Mahasiddhas and tertons are also similarly well-documented.
These things don't seem so unbelievable to me. Now George Bush and Dick Cheney getting elected to two terms, that seems entirely beyond imagining to me. Truth is stranger than fiction.
...that may probe useful. imagine all the oil saved! think of the environment!
on a more serious note, recollection of past lives is (I think, in addition to being free of the 10 fetters) another prerequisite for Nirvana.
so... deva namanarati is pleiadi star cluster... astral travel (is more static than "travel", but if works) was practiced by many... including gnostic christians.
...and so on.
I've just ordered 'The Knowledge of Healing' on DVD. Thanks to @Dakini for the suggestions.
when you come to the one by Brian that says "welcome to our brand new forum!" - stop.
C.
Dande, after you view the film, maybe you could open a discussion of it in the "Arts" category. I'd love to discuss it with you.