Being discriminated against!

Spock

I have read with interest a number of threads here where a number of members have expressed difficulty in "being public" about being a Buddhist because they live in a predominantly Christian society, most specifically in the bible belt of the USA.
What I didn't realise is that it appears that it is legal for employers to discriminate against non-Christians in the USA. Such a realisation occurred when a friend sent me a link suggestion that I apply for a position at a university in the USA because he thought I may be suitable. I thought so too, until I found that I had to provide a statement on how Christianity impacts on my ethics and way of life.....I would also have to be prepared to teach "Christian Life". What shocked and....yes...angered me was that the position is for an exercise physiologist, and would include scientific research!

On further investigation I found that such practice is very common in US educational establishments. In my eyes, this is tantamount to bigotry of the highest order and close to legalised "institutional discrimination".

My motivation for writing this post is to show my support and compassion for those of you that are directly impacted by such dogmatism.

Mountains

Absolutely not true. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 bans most (not all, no law is all-encompassing) religious discrimination in the US. And that includes educational institutions.

Not to say it never happens in real life, but it is not legal.

Spock

Hi Mountains

I chose my words carefully saying that "it appears to be legal" but this does highlight my lack of knowledge of US law.

So in the case in question, should I be unable to fulfil the job spec because I'm a Buddhist and the post is primarily a scientific one, is having a non-related religious requirement contrary to the act?

Dakini

A scenario such as you describe might occur in a private faith-based university. They may be allowed to require that faculty share their faith, I'm not sure. The law sometimes applies differently for public (federally-funded) and private universities. You could contact the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union). They'd know. From what country are you applying? (Not that it matters, just curious.)

buddhajunkie

Private universities can legally hire based on faith.

Kinda makes sense, at least for the case where the university is explicitly religious.

Dakini

Try applying to state universities and state colleges, if you want to live in the US. There will be nothing on the application form relating to religion.

B5C

Private University can ban religions because they do not get public money. This is why the Boy Scouts can ban gays and atheists. Which is odd because in the Boy Scouts you must believe in God, but Buddhism is accepted.

genkaku

Private universities can legally hire based on faith.

Kinda makes sense, at least for the case where the university is explicitly religious.

Without disrespect, it does seem curious that a university -- even one with an explicitly religious orientation -- would exclude those who were qualified in a particular pursuit. Universities, as I understand it, are places of intellectual improvement. And intellect might be described as one of God's (or pick another upper-echelon word) gifts...a gift worth nourishing and honoring.

Religions, by and large, are given over to beliefs that circumscribe and sometimes infringe on the intellect. To hold intellectual pursuits hostage to beliefs ... strikes me as strange at least and perverted at worst. Further, I think that such a restriction would demean not only the intellect that deserves nourishment but also the religion prescribing the restriction.

I imagine such prescriptions would be more common among younger religions -- ones not yet entirely sure of their belief-based footing. Older religious persuasions do not seek to limit the limitless.

From where I sit, it all seems peculiar, whatever the religion involved might be.

[DeletedUser]

Religiously intolerance and pragmatically nonconforming to God's love :cool:

MindGate

Private University can ban religions because they do not get public money. This is why the Boy Scouts can ban gays and atheists. Which is odd because in the Boy Scouts you must believe in God, but Buddhism is accepted.

Well, I thought Atheism meant "lack of belief in a God or Gods." So, technically, since Buddhism is a non-theistic belief that lacks a belief in a higher power, Buddhists are Atheists. Thats how I perceive it to be.
:scratch:

B5C

Private University can ban religions because they do not get public money. This is why the Boy Scouts can ban gays and atheists. Which is odd because in the Boy Scouts you must believe in God, but Buddhism is accepted.

Well, I thought Atheism meant "lack of belief in a God or Gods." So, technically, since Buddhism is a non-theistic belief that lacks a belief in a higher power, Buddhists are Atheists. Thats how I perceive it to be.
:scratch:

Buddhist Churches of America runs the Scouts Buddhist program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_Churches_of_America

Vangelis

Buddhists are Atheists.

Well, that's how I see it too, MindGate. Only don't tell the Australian atheists that - I had a big discussion/argument with them on that very issue. It seems it's not enough for them to categorically and unconditionally deny the existence of a creator-god being. You also have to denounce anything that has not been proven by science. That's quite a lot...

MindGate

It seems it's not enough for them to categorically and unconditionally deny the existence of a creator-god being.

It seems to me, then, that they would be Agnostic-Atheists.

Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they claim not to know or be able to know whether any deity exists.

But, rationally speaking, any Atheist, unless they are quite the close-minded, stubborn person who refuses to be called it, could be considered an Agnostic-Atheist, because as of now we are unable to prove that any kind of God exists, thus they are unable to claim that they know one exists.

So it could go either way, Atheist or Agnostic-Atheist. They pretty much mean the same thing. Atheists, no matter how stubborn, cannot deny the fact they cannot prove that a god doesn't exist, making them an Agnostic-Atheist.

B5C

Buddhists are Atheists.

Well, that's how I see it too, MindGate. Only don't tell the Australian atheists that - I had a big discussion/argument with them on that very issue. It seems it's not enough for them to categorically and unconditionally deny the existence of a creator-god being. You also have to denounce anything that has not been proven by science. That's quite a lot...

Well Mr Dawkins in The God Delusion wrote:

"And I shall not be concerned at all with other religions such as Buddhism or Confucianism. Indeed, there is something to be said for treating these not as religions at all but ethical systems or philosophies of life. "

Heck I am accepted at Atheist websites.

compassionate_warrior

Buddhist Churches of America runs the Scouts Buddhist program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_Churches_of_America

I checked out your reference, and I didn't see that it said BCA run the Scouts Buddhist program. (What is the Scouts Buddhist program? Or do you mean the Buddhist Scouts program?) It said that the Scouts were active with the BCA prior to WW2 because the BCA wanted to instill American civic values in its followers. Did I miss something? Although if the Scouts accept Buddhists, then the BCA and the Scouts must have some sort of cozy relationship...

Spock: apply for the job anyway. It may be that the school allows a certain percentage of faculty to be non-Christian.

buddhajunkie

Private universities can legally hire based on faith.

Kinda makes sense, at least for the case where the university is explicitly religious.

Without disrespect, it does seem curious that a university -- even one with an explicitly religious orientation -- would exclude those who were qualified in a particular pursuit. Universities, as I understand it, are places of intellectual improvement. And intellect might be described as one of God's (or pick another upper-echelon word) gifts...a gift worth nourishing and honoring.

Religions, by and large, are given over to beliefs that circumscribe and sometimes infringe on the intellect. To hold intellectual pursuits hostage to beliefs ... strikes me as strange at least and perverted at worst. Further, I think that such a restriction would demean not only the intellect that deserves nourishment but also the religion prescribing the restriction.

I imagine such prescriptions would be more common among younger religions -- ones not yet entirely sure of their belief-based footing. Older religious persuasions do not seek to limit the limitless.

From where I sit, it all seems peculiar, whatever the religion involved might be.

But who is going to decide what beliefs infringe on the intellect? Many religious people think their ideas are "intellectual" while they view the ideas of many academics (postmodernism, Marxism, evolution) as hogwash.

I actually think it would be infringement on 1st Amendment free speech rights if an organization that promoted a certain idea were required to hire people who did not hold those beliefs. Freedom of assembly implies exclusion.

Imagine if your local Sangha (an educational institution of sorts) were required to hire preachers who believed that meditation "lets the devil in." That would destroy the Sangha.

Generally speaking, the worst case scenario would be minority religions/beliefs being swamped by the majority (or the more powerful). i.e., Christians taking over Islamic schools, or possibly atheists taking over Christian organizations.

In fact, I would say that in academia, practicing Christians are already a weak minority, especially in the humanities and social sciences. I actually have a friend who left a graduate program because he felt it was openly anti-Christian.

So I'm actually happy that Christians have some way to protect and cultivate their beliefs, especially in such a typically oppressive arena for them.


So while we, as Buddhists, may not like this specific application of free speech, I think the principle of it, and broader benefits, is more important.

B5C

Buddhist Churches of America runs the Scouts Buddhist program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_Churches_of_America

I checked out your reference, and I didn't see that it said BCA run the Scouts Buddhist program. (What is the Scouts Buddhist program? Or do you mean the Buddhist Scouts program?) It said that the Scouts were active with the BCA prior to WW2 because the BCA wanted to instill American civic values in its followers. Did I miss something? Although if the Scouts accept Buddhists, then the BCA and the Scouts must have some sort of cozy relationship...

http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs/Buddhist.aspx

Role of Scouting in Buddhism

* Founded in 1899, Buddhist Churches of America is an incorporated religious organization.
o It administers the religious emblems program for all Buddhist denominations in America.
o It is affiliated with Jodo Shinshu Hogwanjiha in Kyoto, Japan.
* Buddhist Churches of America is governed by Americans of the Shin Buddhist faith through a Board of Directors comprised of the:
o Bishop
o Board President
o Ministerial Association Chairperson
o District-level board members
o Board members-at-large
o Representatives from the recognized Buddhist Churches of America affiliated organization
* Buddhist Churches of America National Committee on Scouting works with the community Buddhist religious leaders to develop the Buddhist religious program.

compassionate_warrior

Fascinating! Thank you, B5C.

Cinorjer

The role of religion in hiring when it comes to religious organizations running schools and charities and such is complicated in the US, since it involves all sorts of federal and even state laws that try to balance freedom of religion with nondiscrimination policies when public funding is involved. Politically speaking, the Christian right in particular pretty much get to discriminate however they want because they currently get special treatment from politicians who count on their votes. That's just the reality.

You must have applied to one of those Christian universities. The ones who teach creationism and who will expell a gay student, if discovered, and claim he can be "cured" of his gayness. Would you want to work at such a place, anyway? Try a real college, instead.

Mountains

Without disrespect, it does seem curious that a university -- even one with an explicitly religious orientation -- would exclude those who were qualified in a particular pursuit. Universities, as I understand it, are places of intellectual improvement. And intellect might be described as one of God's (or pick another upper-echelon word) gifts...a gift worth nourishing and honoring.

I'm just going to take a wild guess that you're not American, and that you're not familiar with the incredible intolerance and ignorance exhibited by so-called institutions of "higher learning" that are associated with the evangelical "Christian" movement in the US. Not only would they not hire faculty based on their lack of "Christian" faith, they don't even want to talk to anyone who doesn't share their views. There is a university near where I live that doesn't teach evolution in their science curriculum. I personally know someone who graduated from there with a master's degree in secondary education who didn't get hired to teach science in a public school system *because* she did not have any education in evolution. It's actually frightening that these schools are given the same academic standing as real universities in this country, even though they teach nothing but narrow-minded, blinkered interpretations of reality. Their graduates come out with an amazingly restricted view of the world. And then go on to become leaders in business and government. And we wonder why things are so screwed up?

Tekchef

the previous posts here, sadly, have a high level truth. In places in the Us-espc. in the "Bible Belt", Christianity is everything and if you are not a member of that faith, you are not welcomed.
Just be carefull about where you apply, that's all. One thing you have to keep in mind about the US is that Christianity is the largest faith here and outside of the more "liberal" areas(which are mainly on the Coasts of the country), other faiths are looked down on a bit. Conservative Christians are not bad people, they just tend to be a bit xenophobic, so we just have to be patient and let the good nature of Gautama's teaching slowly become apparent to them.

buddhajunkie

I'm just going to take a wild guess that you're not American, and that you're not familiar with the incredible intolerance and ignorance exhibited by so-called institutions of "higher learning" that are associated with the evangelical "Christian" movement in the US. Not only would they not hire faculty based on their lack of "Christian" faith, they don't even want to talk to anyone who doesn't share their views. There is a university near where I live that doesn't teach evolution in their science curriculum. I personally know someone who graduated from there with a master's degree in secondary education who didn't get hired to teach science in a public school system *because* she did not have any education in evolution. It's actually frightening that these schools are given the same academic standing as real universities in this country, even though they teach nothing but narrow-minded, blinkered interpretations of reality. Their graduates come out with an amazingly restricted view of the world. And then go on to become leaders in business and government. And we wonder why things are so screwed up?

Liberal academics can be just as close-minded and intolerant as Christian conservatives. And there is a lot of terrible teaching going on at politically correct, secular universities.

The good thing is that the market for university education is very competitive. If you don't want a religious education, then don't go. If you don't want to hire someone from a religious school, don't hire them. And vice versa.

We don't need the Feds forcing a conformity among all universities. THAT would be destructive to the higher education system.

There are upsides to a competitive system that we shouldn't take for granted.

B5C

A lot of professors in Christian Universities are like him:

Dazron

Don't go for a job there. Life wouldn't be worth living, dharma or no dharma!!

genkaku

Private University can ban religions because they do not get public money. This is why the Boy Scouts can ban gays and atheists. Which is odd because in the Boy Scouts you must believe in God, but Buddhism is accepted.

Well, I thought Atheism meant "lack of belief in a God or Gods." So, technically, since Buddhism is a non-theistic belief that lacks a belief in a higher power, Buddhists are Atheists. Thats how I perceive it to be.
:scratch:

Buddhism in practice does not rely on anything as simplistic as either belief or disbelief. Belief and disbelief (which amount to the same thing) both rely on something else. Buddhism does not rely on anything whatsoever.

Or anyway that's my take.