How can time exist?

TheJourney

Let's pretend that there exists such a thing as the present moment. If it were truly a present moment, then it could not take up any time, for if it took up time then there would, by necessity, be past, present, and future. If this exists, then how can no time create time? Even if you put an infinite amount of present moments together, still no time would be created, as the present moment takes up no time. So how can time exist?

MindGate

I'd say... time is infinite, and to us, time is relative. Thus, there is an infinite amount of time and our brain processes it in a linear fashion with past, present, and future. This past, present, and future though only exist to us because thats how we perceive time to be.

TheJourney

I have my own understanding of this, but I struggle to put it into words. I made this thread purely to provoke thought.

robot

Better to just quote Nagarjuna

MindGate

Heres a video of mine. Its somewhat irrelevant, but not really.

The whole idea is a tad convoluted.



In a nutshell, it says that:

1) Something exists because nothing truly does not exist because nothing is something.

2) Time, the universe, everything in infinite. Why? Because why would only a certain amount of things exist if an infinite amount of things are possible?

3) Perhaps, consciousness is infinite. Consciousness is hard to define. Feelings, emotions, thoughts, the ability to perceive time and know we exist are hard things to define. Sure, we have biological chemistry and such which can explain most of it, but being alive just seems to be so much more than that. If you are truly just the work of nature, we have no free will. We are automatons.

4) If consciousness is indeed infinite, considering consciousness, if it is indeed a non-completely-biological function, could not just appear from no where (nothing does), perhaps live is a mere dream in an infinite amount of dreams.

And other stuff. Theres some flaws. Feel free to point them out. Like I said, its a bit convoluted. I don't necessarily believe it, its just an idea.

[DeletedUser]

Buddhahood never create time, it is the lost of intrinsic buddhahood that time is created. For instance, someone wake you up while asleep, the very instantaneous moment you woke up and look at, you would never notice there is time or no time.

thickpaper

T

Let's pretend that there exists such a thing as the present moment. If it were truly a present moment, then it could not take up any time, for if it took up time then there would, by necessity, be past, present, and future. If this exists, then how can no time create time? Even if you put an infinite amount of present moments together, still no time would be created, as the present moment takes up no time. So how can time exist?

this is how I see it:


It is important to see the difference between the experience of time and the passage of time.

The passage of time is the connected and consistent change of things, there is nothing more to it.

The experience of time is the illusion of time necessitated by sentience within the connected change of things.

Then there is spacetime, which is the what in this particular universe, things and events change relative to.

I would like to know any other views of time which are compatible with dependent origination and the three foundational truths of dharma?

namaste

SherabDorje

Time does not exist independently from its own side, independent of human observation. That is to say, time is a dependently arising phenomenon, dependent on human observation and conceptualization for its "existence". Just like the table on the other thread. It does not exist independently of human observation and mental construction and is therefore a dependently arisen phenomenon.

Methinks the board has gotten too far into Journey's "thought experiments". Both a table and time are dependently arisen phenomena and therefore do not
exist inherently from their own side.

Jeffrey

Time is dependent on a consciious ness, but what is that dependent on? It must go back forever to our birth. What is the dividing line when we became conscious. Were and egg and sperm conscious? When did the pattern of emotions emerge?

SherabDorje

Time is dependent on a consciious ness, but what is that dependent on? It must go back forever to our birth. What is the dividing line when we became conscious. Were and egg and sperm conscious? When did the pattern of emotions emerge?

IMHO this is a topic for another thread, and possibly diverts from the topic at hand on this one.

Jeffrey

material and consciousness. If someone wants to start the thread. I'll just say that if you say time is dependently arisen. Then one should know what it is dependently arisen from. But if I don't thats because I am only speculating. I think the infinite regression of consciossness doesn't help relieve suffering for me.

upalabhava

Time is dependent on a consciious ness, but what is that dependent on? It must go back forever to our birth. What is the dividing line when we became conscious. Were and egg and sperm conscious? When did the pattern of emotions emerge?

Clear light mind: The subtlest level of mental activity (mind), which continues with no beginning and no end, without any break, even during death and even into Buddhahood. It is individual and constitutes the mental continuum of each being. It is naturally free of conceptual cognition, the appearance-making of true existence, and grasping for true existence, since it is more subtle than the grosser levels of mental activity with which these occur. It has nothing to do with "light." http://bit.ly/hFOtgJ

Emotional obscurations: Fleeting stains that temporarily "cover" or accompany mental activity (more precisely, clear light mental activity), thereby preventing the mental activity from cognizing phenomena without accompanying disturbing emotions or attitudes. They include the disturbing emotions and attitudes, as well as their tendencies (seeds), and prevent the attainment of liberation from samsara, Also translated as "obscurations that are the disturbing emotions and attitudes" and "obscurations preventing liberation." http://bit.ly/ht5fm2

ShiftPlusOne

Ok, I'll work with your logic.
Let present moment=x, makes sense.
x is placed somewhere on an axis as the origin with positive on the right and negative on the left.
Makes sense.

So, how can something that takes no time make up time? It can't. The present moment isn't what makes up time, it's a reference point for us to know what's past, present and future.

Here's the first part of your post:
_ is used for spacing.
<-------------------0------------------->
_______________________x

Here's the second part of your post:
<-------------------o------------------->
__-inf..xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx..inf

When in reality what you said implies:
<-------------------o------------------->
_______________________x
_______________________x
_______________________x
_______________________..inf

genkaku

I am time.
You too.

SherabDorje

Ok, I'll work with your logic...

But it's still a dependently arisen phenomena.

ShiftPlusOne

SherabDorje, absolutely. What isn't though?

Vincenzi

time is part of space (arupa-dhatu reference; compared with yogic meditation)

SherabDorje

Anything in "conventional" existence is a dependently arisen phenomena. Time is dependent on a body or phenomenon in motion and an observer. The question from the OP is "How can time exist?". The answer to the OP is that time exists as a dependently arisen phenomena, as an interaction between an observer and a body or phenomenon in motion. Anything other than "conventional" phenomena (using Buddhist terminology) isn't dependently arisen.

Maybe I need to stay away from threads that Journey starts "simply to provoke thought".

ShiftPlusOne

SherabDorje, sure, that's the straight to the point answer. I was just pointing a flaw in the original chain of thought.

seeker242

Your mind makes it exist just like it does with everything else.

sukhita

Maybe, time is dependent on motion. Say, everything in the universe stands still for a duration, the concept of time will disappear. There would not be yesterday, today, or tomorrow. All the cells in your body will be fixed, you will not be getting older. No motion - No time!

thickpaper

Maybe, time is dependent on motion. Say, everything in the universe stands still for a duration, the concept of time will disappear. There would not be yesterday, today, or tomorrow. All the cells in your body will be fixed, you will not be getting older. No motion - No time!

I am not sure about motion, per se, because that implies a medium, like spacetime or space.

But change, change of any kind, is needed for time. If there is no change there is no time, I think it's a truism.

sukhita

Agree, "change" would be the appropriate word.

DhammaDhatu

The notion of "the present moment" is superstition. If one actually examines the "present moment", one will find it passes away rather quickly.

I am happy to be corrected but I cannot recall the Lord Buddha ever using the term "present moment".

I do recall the Lord Buddha using the term "the present dhammas". In seeing "the present dhammas", one sees their falling away.

Whatever dhamma is present
you clearly see right there,
right there.

Bhaddekaratta Sutta

'What am I becoming as the days & nights fly past?'

This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

Dasadhamma Sutta

upalabhava

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these three times. Which three? Past time, future time, & present time. These are the three times."

Perceiving in terms of signs,
beings take a stand on signs.
Not fully comprehending signs,
they come into the bonds of death.
But fully comprehending signs,
one doesn't construe a signifier.
Touching liberation with the heart,
the state of peace unsurpassed,
consummate in terms of signs,
peaceful,
enjoying the peaceful state,
judicious,
an attainer-of wisdom makes use of classifications
but can't be classified.

§ 63 http://bit.ly/hbyFrn


See also Thanissaro's introduction http://bit.ly/dKRknu

"In the course of his Awakening, the Buddha discovered that the experience of the present moment consists of three factors: results from past actions, present actions, and the results of present actions. This means that kamma acts in feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; while present actions shape not only the present but also the future. This constant opening for present input into the causal processes shaping one's life makes free will possible."


There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.
http://bit.ly/fFdvMf


Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present, and cross over to the farther shore of existence. With mind wholly liberated, you shall come no more to birth and death. § 348 http://bit.ly/h8hsrb

DhammaDhatu

All the above states is there is 'time'. Present time quickly becomes past time.

Dazzle

Ajahn Sumedho talks about the here and now, and the present moment. For example...

"So when the Buddha pointed to awareness, sati-sampajanna, he was pointing to the reflective capacity. For this I use the phrase 'intuitive awareness.' Although 'intuition' is a common enough word in English, I myself use it to refer to the ability to awaken and be aware, which is a state of reflection. It isn't thought; it's not filling my mind with ideas or views and opinions. It's an ability to receive this present moment, to receive both the physical and mental conditions as they impinge on me through the senses. It is the ability to embrace the moment, which means the embracement of everything. Everything belongs here, whether you like it or not. Whether you want it or don't want it is not the issue. It is the way it is".

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books9/Ajahn_Sumedho_Personality.htm

SeaOfTranquility

Time - now there is an interesting concept.

In Reality there is only the present moment. It cannot be grasped onto because it only happens now in real time.

The past exists as memory, and karma, results of past actions that are observed right now.

The future exists as illusion or imagination that is projected right now.

Awareness and waking up to reality can only happen in the present. That's why in many ways it is beyond conceptualization. How do you wake up? By practicing being awake.

Perhaps that is what the Buddha taught? That suffering is a creation of our own mind created attachments to "I" "Me", "Mine" of past and future.

Cloud

It's like a dream that's been going on for an infinity of this time, but it doesn't matter because it's only the surface that you step into... those conditions that give rise to the aggregates out of the emptiness. We only observe time in that we can remember change, because that is all time is... observance of change. Only in clinging to things does time become important to us... not enough of it, time's running out, won't be here soon! But really have always been here, part of the dream, the emptiness. This is our true mother and father and we share it with each other and all life, all formations, all mind; so we should look after it, so that when others step onto the surface they don't suffer quite so much.

ittybittybat

I agree with Cloud; time is how we view the changes in our life. I do not believe that it is "made up", or that it only exists in our mind. Quite honestly, time is just another word to describe the changes around us. As time passes, we grow older, and our bodies tear down until we die. I would think that time was in our minds if nothing aged, but it does. I do not believe that, just because humans were born, the idea of 'time' was suddenly created. It has been, and will be unless there is a way to stop it.

Dazzle

I found something else that Ajahn Sumedho says about awareness in the present moment in his book "Don't take your life personally".

"Our emotional habits are often built around success and failure — elated by success and depressed by failure. The way to transcend that, however, is through awareness just in this present moment, this simple act of attention, this listening, openness and receptivity. Then there is a sense of relief — such a relief!"

Wuji

The question asked was, "How can time exist"? The succinct answer is that time does not exist. Buddhism teaches us that only the things we sense with our five senses actually exist. Everything else including time is a concept in our mind based on our perception and emotions.

More accurately time can be defined as the spatial reference frame of the observer. I think a more relevant and interesting question might be, "How can anything exist without time?" or "Can you move or sit still without time?'". Time is real just as moving sideways is real. Old physics taught time was the fourth dimension although new physics has changed labels and theories on that.

These concepts like dimensions or time do not exist per say but, instead are just mental concepts shared by others and verifiable. If you go somewhere and show up at a certain time you just verified that this shared reference remains fairly constant for us on earth. Science teaches us that time is not constant, as it appears to our limited experience.

As others said the present is just a spatial reference point of one frame. How long is a frame or the duration of the present? I'm not sure the present is something that can clearly be defined at all since it is a concept within another concept. However, I think we all understand the concept and hopefully we all understand what it means to live in the moment.

Roger

Here's a thought. :rarr:

Time is the psychological effect we feel arising from the fact that we are mind embodied in a complex organism which depends on chemical reactions for it's existence. Of course chemical reactions (interactions of molecules and atoms) take time to occur.

So for now, the question of time is..., ahem...,a 'temporary' problem