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hmm. i thought about it alot and i think i have a good resolution, and i'm feeling better from it. craving is only bad when it controls you. it will always influence you as long as you are alive. the craving for things like air can never be defeated, and craving for things like truth or kindness shouldn't be defeated. as long as your cravings are second in command so to speak they are not bad. I think this is probably true because even now i am still craving truth but i am able to master myself put aside my craving and stay in control.
That's right, Roger; I spoke to a sleep specialist who said pretty much everyone has some degree of sleep apnea. It's part of being human. Even kids have it. Or, for you aHN, it could be something else: shortage of dopamine (a feel-good chemical that can be boosted with the 5-HTP Roger suggested earlier), or some such. Ask your doctor. It doesn't mean you're a psych case, it just means you have some sort of imbalance. It happens to a lot of people at one point or another in their lives.
oops--another simultaneous post, aHN. Good for you, sounds like you've figured something out.
Yes right now i'm still able to think about this, but i don't really feel bad anymore. i'm doing something without craving any certain outcome from it. i just can't really rationalize how that is possible then. if craving means wanting something, then i don't know how craving can cause suffering because right now i want to find the truth but i'm not really suffering. maybe wanting something isn't exactly the cause of suffering, maybe it's something closer to needing something, depending on something. maybe its sort of the difference between equanimity and indifference. like "yea i'll take that happiness, that truth, if its within my reach, but i won't try to grasp for it if i find it's out of my reach."
actually that works very nicely because it still allows you to try to achieve anything. For example instead of craving a new car you accept that you'd like a new car, and you strive for each individually achievable step without attaching to the distant overall goal of a car. It's kind of a living in the moment type thing, you can still acknowledge the future, but only feel motivated toward the next present step.
But at the same time your not attached to the outcome even of the present step you'd prefer one way but again won't try to hold what is out of your grasp. There is no point reaching for the football thrown 5 feet away from you, if you'd like that football you must step toward it then try to reach it, but you only desire things which are within your grasp, like the step itself or once your within distance of grasping the football you can desire to grab it. It comes down to never desiring things which you are not certain of being able to achieve. this doesn't mean that you shouldn't have high goals, it just means that you shouldn't attach to say the goal of owning a car until your pen is making the final stroke in your signature on the contract. and even then your desire isn't to own a car for all time, it is only to own a car in the very next instant. if you total your car driving out of the dealership your craving won't have been disappointed because you won't have craved owning the car for all time, as it is a goal outside of your reach.
Sorry if what i said made no sense but i really feel better from understanding it. hopefully it can help some of you guys. if I made a mistake let me know tho. Probably what i said was either really obvious or incomprehensible. If it's the former then at least i finally understood it, if it's the ladder i'll try to explain it better... to anyone who gives a crap.
It makes perfect sense, you've really done a good bit of work. Not being attached to the outcome is a core tenet. And your "needing" something or "depending on " something is along the lines of what we were saying yesterday, but in your own words, so that's great.
i think i'm probably talking to myself on a public forum at this point, but....
you can also think of it in terms of craving things inside a time frame, the time frame of the infinitely fleeting constantly disappearing and reappearing present you only attach to what you are able to do within that instant. you don't bother with the outcome of what will happen in 1/10 of a second from now. you can still plan toward something which is years away from realization, but you keep yourself from attaching to the positive outcomes of the future. keep your desire for things within the infinitesimal present and your craving will not be painful but you can still accomplish the same things... not that you are attached to the outcome of accomplishment. hope this makes some sense, goodnight
CW - yea i think the main difference i realized is that the only bad craving is craving that exists in a span of recognizable time. you must attach to achieve anything but as long as you only attach (may be the wrong word in this case) to things with a full understanding of their fleeting impermanence, things in the present moment, then your attachment does nothing to harm you.
It's your thread, Nihilist, so you can talk to yourself if you want. Besides. this is part of the process of working your way to an answer to your question. It's ok to use us as a sounding board. We're happy you've succeeded in working some of this out to your satisfaction. We're glad you're feeling better about it. This is cause for celebration!
CW - yea i think the main difference i realized is that the only bad craving is craving that exists in a span of recognizable time. you must attach to achieve anything but as long as you only attach (may be the wrong word in this case) to things with a full understanding of their fleeting impermanence, things in the present moment, then your attachment does nothing to harm you.
You've come a long way, Nihilist! And there's also the impermanence of our attachments, the positive ones, on our journey toward Liberation; the closer we get, the less attachment we have. Ultimately--none.
yes if you only attach to things within the present moment, with the full knowledge that the attachments will be gone instantaneously then you can achieve anything without ever feeling as if you are craving something. I like the reaching metaphor for this, there is no point in reaching for what is farther from you than your arm is long. once one subconsciously internalizes that knowledge one is likely far along the road to enlightenment.
I AM NOW ENLIGHTENED HAIL THE NEW BUDDHA!
naw, a hell of alot left to do, but i finally understand, intellectually at least, that i shouldn't mind in the slightest whether i achieve enlightenment, because it is something outside of the range of my proverbial arm and so reaching for it is illogical.
aha.. i have a smile on my face, i should take a picture
Good news, aHN! And you're right; you shouldn't mind if you don't make it to Enlightenment, no need to ruffle your feathers over it, but you gradually work towards it, all the same. One step at a time, one day at a time. Just do what you can each day. You've already done a good bit. And you know, one of our other members said that we never know how close it is, or how far. Enlightenment could be right around the corner, how do we know? We could have a sudden flash of insight, or a series of flashes. It's unpredictable.
Time to change the title of your thread to, "I get it!", don't you think?
You will experience everything. You are just doing that right now. No point in getting upset with the present, you will get what you desire.
I will experience everything?
Also i think the point is that it doesn't matter if you don't get what you desire.
There is no separate you. There is nothing that is not you. Therefor you ARE everything, so obviously you inherently "experience" everything, but really "experience" has no meaning.
The supramundane is unspeakable, at least in a coherent way that people would actually understand. That's why we have the path. Until we understand Anatta, Anicca and Dukkha, we must still work on understanding those. The mind is a flowing process of change; it doesn't go from unawakened to awakened just because a Buddha says "life is like this", and so the Buddha didn't just say what life is like. He showed us a path of practice to realize it for ourselves.
The supramundane is unspeakable, at least in a coherent way that people would actually understand. That's why we have the path. Until we understand Anatta, Anicca and Dukkha, we must still work on understanding those. The mind is a flowing process of change; it doesn't go from unawakened to awakened just because a Buddha says "life is like this", and so the Buddha didn't just say what life is like. He showed us a path of practice to realize it for ourselves.
Okay then come up with another one. It might even be a better one, but it has to unbind the mind. What you believe about Buddhism doesn't change the fact that awakening is a process; it has its conditions.
I don't mean to deflate your balloon, but the natural high you're on now will fall just like everything else. Nothing has changed; life is still the way it is, and people are still the way they are. As clearly as you see now, people have been there before, perhaps even further, and yet Buddhism still is the only path known. Why do you think that is? Take some time, like I recommended yesterday.
As much as you want to help others, and you will be able to, see that I'm only trying to help you and reflect on these words.
Okay then come up with another one. It might even be a better one, but it has to unbind the mind. What you believe about Buddhism doesn't change the fact that awakening is a process; it has its conditions.
I don't mean to deflate your balloon, but the natural high you're on now will fall just like everything else. Nothing has changed; life is still the way it is, and people are still the way they are. As clearly as you see now, people have been there before, perhaps even further, and yet Buddhism still is the only path known. Why do you think that is? Take some time, like I recommended yesterday.
Awakening is certainly a process. Being "awake" is simply being aware of the process.
If you don't want to reflect on it, that's up to you. Is it not dukkha to think you can convey ultimate reality, when you fail (to make people understand) time and again?
I hear a lot of aversion in your words. Aversion in the form of judgement, anger, and rejection of experience. Aversion has it's roots in hurt and/or fear.
The reason you are not happy is that you are not allowing yourself to be happy. You need to remove the delusional thought that is blocking your awareness of reality.
Just learning the Buddha's basic teachings is not going to do you much good. More conceptualization only adds to the confusion you are experiencing. You need to step back and really see what is going on in your mind. Then the teachings will begin to make sense. Meditate daily. Learn Metta and apply it to yourself.
I am very new to Buddhism myself, so my knowledge is tiny compared to those who have been practicing longer. But perhaps I can offer something from the perspective of a new seeker. More experienced folks are welcome to correct me!
If I understand my teacher correctly, the goal is inner peace. It helps to deal with the tough things but also to appreciate the good. But it isn't a state of constant happiness, at least not for me where I am at now. I am dealing with some stressful responsibilities and some days I am grateful that the meditation helps me feel less anxious, if not all-out happy. As others have said, there are good days and bad but practice is key.
I hope this helps. Please be kind to yourself as well as others.
no, trishna is craving to feel pleasure. the actual concept used means: thirst. human life has suffering, humans suffer because of thirst, if you don't have thirst you will not suffer, to not have thirst you must follow the noble (8'fold) path
Dharma 101 (not Buddh'ism, Dharma... there is no 'isms in Dharma).
yes, but like i said like 10 times i must be doing something wrong because i'm following the 8-fold path and aint nuthin happning.
How often do you practice meditation and what kind of meditation do you practice? How long have you been doing it? A month? A month is a very very short time period. Did you expect to be free of all unhappiness in a month? Does an athlete expect to become an Olympic professional, with only a month of training? Seems unreasonable to come to conclusions after only a month.
Dear HappyNihilist. I also don’t understand the buddhist ideas. For me these teachings are also full of contradictions. There are many philosophies which try to tell us how to be happier, better and how to get closer to the ultimate goal of I-don’t-know-what. It also confuses me. I was quite happy, then I met Buddhism. First of all I got a bad conscience. I seemed to make everything wrong. Enjoying chocolates? Not possible, with chocolates I will never become enlightened. Taking nice pictures with my camera? Very bad, it only supports short-time-happiness. Dreaming? No, very bad, this means attachment. So I tried not to crave, not to wish, not to have desires, not to attach, not to get too angry, not to dream. This made me very unhappy. It cut myself off from my emotions, life and vividness. Maybe I have misunderstood something. I still don’t understand what detachment in Buddhism really means. So I began to accept myself as I am, with happiness AND sorrows, desires AND detachment, with angry moments AND compassionate ones, with the emotion of loneliness AND the emotion of deep happiness, with superficial moments AND profound ones. I became more relaxed. I gave it up to become a highly-perfected super-woman. I realized, that dourness and fixation doesn't help me at all. No, the opposite was the case, it took my natural happiness away from me. I think, we need a healthy balance in life. If we lose it, life usually forces us to redress this balance. I learn most from direct experience in life. There is no philosophy which can replace experience. Nobody can make my life-experience for me. I cannot copy the path of someone else. It will always be a poor copy. Maybe you are simply so unhappy because you ask too much from yourself. Enjoy life without bad conscience. If you like, watch your thoughts without commenting or judging them. Or try to concentrate on the gap between two thoughts. Maybe this helps to relax from time to time from your unhappiness. Regards and all the best to you.
Good point, Roger; there could be a physiological problem, like apnea, a dopamine deficiency (for which the 5-HTP supplement Roger suggested before is one remedy), a hormonal imbalance. But you said you're feeling better; I think maybe you were stressing yourself out over some of these conundrums in Buddhism, maybe beating yourself up for not experiencing whatever your image of "happiness" is. Good to know that you're feeling better. You're not a nuisance; we're here in part just for this sort of thing.
well about halfway through this thread i sort of resolved my issue, with a philosophical revelation. not that i don't appreciate you wanting to help but right now the problem i started with isn't bothering me anymore. I better understood the concept of what craving really is, and why some craving should exist and some shouldn't. if your at all interested you could read my earlier post. basically the conclusion i came to was that bad craving is craving for things that you can't immediately achieve. wanting an abstract and distant goal is ok but becoming attached to something distant only functions as a source of pain. i thought of a good metaphor here, that bad craving is akin to reaching for something that is farther away from you than your arm is long. you can't possibly grab it, it's too far away right now. so that mental reaching, that craving, only serves to hurt.
Comments
oops--another simultaneous post, aHN. Good for you, sounds like you've figured something out.
actually that works very nicely because it still allows you to try to achieve anything. For example instead of craving a new car you accept that you'd like a new car, and you strive for each individually achievable step without attaching to the distant overall goal of a car. It's kind of a living in the moment type thing, you can still acknowledge the future, but only feel motivated toward the next present step.
But at the same time your not attached to the outcome even of the present step you'd prefer one way but again won't try to hold what is out of your grasp. There is no point reaching for the football thrown 5 feet away from you, if you'd like that football you must step toward it then try to reach it, but you only desire things which are within your grasp, like the step itself or once your within distance of grasping the football you can desire to grab it. It comes down to never desiring things which you are not certain of being able to achieve. this doesn't mean that you shouldn't have high goals, it just means that you shouldn't attach to say the goal of owning a car until your pen is making the final stroke in your signature on the contract. and even then your desire isn't to own a car for all time, it is only to own a car in the very next instant. if you total your car driving out of the dealership your craving won't have been disappointed because you won't have craved owning the car for all time, as it is a goal outside of your reach.
Sorry if what i said made no sense but i really feel better from understanding it. hopefully it can help some of you guys. if I made a mistake let me know tho. Probably what i said was either really obvious or incomprehensible. If it's the former then at least i finally understood it, if it's the ladder i'll try to explain it better... to anyone who gives a crap.
you can also think of it in terms of craving things inside a time frame, the time frame of the infinitely fleeting constantly disappearing and reappearing present you only attach to what you are able to do within that instant. you don't bother with the outcome of what will happen in 1/10 of a second from now. you can still plan toward something which is years away from realization, but you keep yourself from attaching to the positive outcomes of the future. keep your desire for things within the infinitesimal present and your craving will not be painful but you can still accomplish the same things... not that you are attached to the outcome of accomplishment. hope this makes some sense, goodnight
CW - yea i think the main difference i realized is that the only bad craving is craving that exists in a span of recognizable time. you must attach to achieve anything but as long as you only attach (may be the wrong word in this case) to things with a full understanding of their fleeting impermanence, things in the present moment, then your attachment does nothing to harm you.
Also i think the point is that it doesn't matter if you don't get what you desire.
I AM NOW ENLIGHTENED HAIL THE NEW BUDDHA!
naw, a hell of alot left to do, but i finally understand, intellectually at least, that i shouldn't mind in the slightest whether i achieve enlightenment, because it is something outside of the range of my proverbial arm and so reaching for it is illogical.
aha.. i have a smile on my face, i should take a picture
Time to change the title of your thread to, "I get it!", don't you think?
I don't mean to deflate your balloon, but the natural high you're on now will fall just like everything else. Nothing has changed; life is still the way it is, and people are still the way they are. As clearly as you see now, people have been there before, perhaps even further, and yet Buddhism still is the only path known. Why do you think that is? Take some time, like I recommended yesterday.
As much as you want to help others, and you will be able to, see that I'm only trying to help you and reflect on these words.
That's all I've got to say. Later...
Namaste
You sound depressed. Stubbornly depressed maybe.
I hear a lot of aversion in your words. Aversion in the form of judgement, anger, and rejection of experience.
Aversion has it's roots in hurt and/or fear.
The reason you are not happy is that you are not allowing yourself to be happy. You need to remove the delusional thought that is blocking your awareness of reality.
Just learning the Buddha's basic teachings is not going to do you much good. More conceptualization only adds to the confusion you are experiencing. You need to step back and really see what is going on in your mind. Then the teachings will begin to make sense. Meditate daily. Learn Metta and apply it to yourself.
Best Wishes
I am very new to Buddhism myself, so my knowledge is tiny compared to those who have been practicing longer. But perhaps I can offer something from the perspective of a new seeker. More experienced folks are welcome to correct me!
If I understand my teacher correctly, the goal is inner peace. It helps to deal with the tough things but also to appreciate the good. But it isn't a state of constant happiness, at least not for me where I am at now. I am dealing with some stressful responsibilities and some days I am grateful that the meditation helps me feel less anxious, if not all-out happy. As others have said, there are good days and bad but practice is key.
I hope this helps. Please be kind to yourself as well as others.
no, trishna is craving to feel pleasure. the actual concept used means: thirst.
human life has suffering,
humans suffer because of thirst,
if you don't have thirst you will not suffer,
to not have thirst you must follow the noble (8'fold) path
Dharma 101 (not Buddh'ism, Dharma... there is no 'isms in Dharma).
How often do you practice meditation and what kind of meditation do you practice? How long have you been doing it? A month? A month is a very very short time period. Did you expect to be free of all unhappiness in a month? Does an athlete expect to become an Olympic professional, with only a month of training? Seems unreasonable to come to conclusions after only a month.
So I began to accept myself as I am, with happiness AND sorrows, desires AND detachment, with angry moments AND compassionate ones, with the emotion of loneliness AND the emotion of deep happiness, with superficial moments AND profound ones. I became more relaxed. I gave it up to become a highly-perfected super-woman. I realized, that dourness and fixation doesn't help me at all. No, the opposite was the case, it took my natural happiness away from me.
I think, we need a healthy balance in life. If we lose it, life usually forces us to redress this balance. I learn most from direct experience in life. There is no philosophy which can replace experience. Nobody can make my life-experience for me. I cannot copy the path of someone else. It will always be a poor copy.
Maybe you are simply so unhappy because you ask too much from yourself. Enjoy life without bad conscience. If you like, watch your thoughts without commenting or judging them. Or try to concentrate on the gap between two thoughts. Maybe this helps to relax from time to time from your unhappiness.
Regards and all the best to you.
(Wow--great advice from SwissSis!)
Happiness is the path.
The Buddha