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Elton John has a baby!
footiam
Veteran
As you probably have known, Elton John is married to a man and he has just had a baby boy. What would a Buddhist view his kind of marriage and his type of baby, I wonder?
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Comments
If only all babies could grow up with loving parents. I agree with ShiftPlusOne.
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Sorry if I sound dense, but if two men, married to each other, produced a baby boy, wouldn't that be headlines in every newspaper ... another miraculous conception?
Or have I missed some breakthrough in how babies get made?
any sort of discrimination against gay people in terms of their ability to do certain things is ridiculous, just sweeping generalization that is likely in not even the smallest way accurate.
This, by the way, is absolutely nothing to do with my being homophobic.
It has everything to do with my being sick and tired of The "Buddhism for beginners" Forum being used as a general dumping ground for any new topic anybody thinks of raising!
Please be selective about where you post topics - not everything that crosses your mind is of scintillating and fascinating interest to a beginner Buddhist!!
Please, one and all - Think before you Post!!
many thanks.
I would like to think there is a Buddhist view. If it does not break the precepts, the Buddhist view should be that it is okay.
Zenbiker,
By his type of baby, I mean one with both parents being male and a surrogate mother. Maybe, that's an awkwrd term to use but sometimes, I find it hard to write a proper sentence.
Simonthepilgrim,
There should be a homophobic bigot somewhere. Or perhaps, Buddhists are open and accepting.
Cinorger,
It seems that some great teachers are not so great!
Genkaku,
Of course, it does not mean the two men produce a baby. Cinorger has explained that. Anyway, headlines can be selected especially in countries where the media is not free.
Federica,
Thanks for pointing out that this post belong to the 'General Banter' section. I think you are right. In my case, I was thinking in terms of whether it breaks the precepts and I always think that precepts are for beginners. I have always been a beginner and never that smart. I hope you don't mind and get too sick. I am getting thee feeling you are not very happy about a lot of things which wouldn't be good for you and many other people.
This, by the way, is absolutely nothing to do with my being homophobic.
It has everything to do with my being sick and tired of The "Buddhism for beginners" Forum being used as a general dumping ground for any new topic anybody thinks of raising!
Please be selective about where you post topics - not everything that crosses your mind is of scintillating and fascinating interest to a beginner Buddhist!!
Please, one and all - Think before you Post!!
many thanks.
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Federica -- I have to plead guilty to the above accusation, but I do try to think before I post and sometimes I do not see an appropriate venue. Perhaps a broad-brush thread called "Dharma discussion" or "Dharma on the street" or even "Kinda Buddhist" might serve for those of us challenged by the current series of possibilities?
I'll try to do better, whatever the outcome.
Either way, good luck to them.
In the UK, there is an ongoing quarrel between the Catholic adoption agencies and the government about the equal right of gay couples to adopt. Gay couples are permitted "civil partnerships" but not "marriage" - apparently a fictitious distinction but a distinction just the same. As a citizen, my dance along the 8-fold way demands that I be engaged where there is injustice and suffering. As an 'elder', I must match the events in the world around me with the standards which I perceive as the highest and most conducive to liberation, not just for myself but for all beings. Elton and David have given, with great generosity, financially and now they are setting out on a new and daunting adventure: parenting. I wish them the very best and great joy, and, to the baby, may he be attended by the kindest of fairies - with pun very much intended.
(P.S. When I did some work with Rocket Records, back in the '80s, Elton was known as Lady Choc-ice, for many reasons)
As for equality, we're definitely not quite there yet. Even in Australia, where most people accept other peoples' differences, we still don't allow gay marriage. I think it's important to stop and appreciate how far we've come though. Even the fact civil union is an option it quite an achievement. When it comes to social change, we can't expect instant results, but we can expect continuous steps in the right direction.
I am all for gay marriages... they deserve to be as miserable as the rest of us!!!
(That was a joke... too good to let pass)
I do agree with your suggestion. It's not easy to categorise certain posts and besides, our thoughts are all very subjective. A mistake like this is not a very big crime I suppose and would not create negative karma in our life.
ShiftPlusOne,
Yes, Good luck to Elton John and family. And thanks for not ticking me off for the typing error. Didn't realise that until Lincoln pointed it out.
And I do think it is not easy to achieve equality. It is very subjective and people in different cultures define it differently.
Simonthepilgrim,
Thanks for your enlightening comment. I gather you think that Buddhism do deal with this or am I wrong?
LesC,
People don't have to get married to be miserable. You just have to participate in a forum like this and get miserable over people's comment! Thank goodness, I like your comment. I think it's funny!
Zombiegirl,
You are very wise to live your life you deem fit! Afterall, it's your life!
Lincoln,
Thanks for pointing out the typing error. It is not intentional.
I'm also kind of proud of myself that I didn't edit on behalf of....!!
I think we have enough suitable destinations for anything we might like to post.
Which precept did you think it might be breaking, exactly, if at all?
The only thing which makes me "unhappy" (it doesn't, but I'm using your term) is needless repetition of subjects we have done to death - and rebirth!! (there's a clue there!) and people posting unthinkingly.
Anything else doesn't worry me one bit.
I just blanket-Ban everyone.
That was a joke.
One thing I do find 'sad' about Elton John (and so many other people in the public eye) is this constant quest to 'improve' on looks with thousands of dollars' worth of plastic surgery, which actually makes things so much worse - when they could actually just probably do to cut down on the calories a bit and drink more water.....!
for the comment about marriage which I and my partner enjoyed immensely. At last someone understands equality!
May All Beings be Happy!
Stuart
A rose by any other name is still a rose!
Jason,
Good for you too! You are very kind!
Federica,
I am glad you can laugh!
As a matter of fact, I don't think it break any of the five precepts unless you call this illicit liason. Enlighten me,won't you?
I do think things will get repeated every now and then because there is always something old that is new to someone new - I'm sure you know what I mean. Besides, Buddhism is such an old religion but some people are barely or just exposed to it; so, you'd expect people to ask a what to old timers, are irrelevant questions.
And there will always be people who post without thinking. I do that sometimes. Sometimes, the grey matter just won't work. We are all different and our mind work differently.
As for plastic surgery, I wonder now if it breaks the precepts!
Zen-trainee-Stu,
Everyone deserves happiness. And I think it is more important that you yourself understand.
If people can accept gay, they should be able to accept plastic surgery. It does not break any precepts or doest it?
ShiftPlusOne,
Can't help that Shakespeare stuff! You are likeable!
SteadyBlue,
A gay is a human too. A straight may not be so human.
Zen_trainee_Stu,
Yes,Let's get wishy- washy. Good thoughts generate good acts!
being Homosexual has no contradiction whatsoever. Plastic surgery does.....
On the second point, I tend to agree with them. The first is something that should not be ignored - there is evidence that children taken from their birth cultures do suffer.
On the third, I would have to disagree as I'm a lesbian mother myself, in a civil partnership.
You have a point and now I wonder if everyone who does plastic surgery has this craving you are talking about.
I wonder if there is any explanation for the lack of reciprocal tendency that you mentioned.
Beta,
A baby taken from his or her culture will not suffer, I suppose.
A person removed from their culture suffers a loss of identity, a division of loyalties and a feeling of displacement, neither one culture, nor the other.
These, to a greater (psychologically damaging) or lesser (subtly dissatisfied) extent.
It also happens to the offspring of foreign immigrants, who are of one nationality, but are born in their adopted country.
But we are diverting wildly from the original topic. I would say that question was sufficiently answered within 5 posts or so.
'course you'll still see idiots looking for someone 'different' to pick on and start fights with.
Cultural identity isn't something people crave, it's something they're forced into. People crave to fit in and labels are a means to do so. The "not being one or the other" thing may have been an issue once upon a time, but due to multiculturalism, people aren't forced into one or the other. Besides, I am sure being 'Elton John's adopted child' would be much more of a defining factor than ancestry.
Also, the reason Ukraine and Russia are cautious towards Americans looking to adopt is because there have been many cases of abuse. I am sure there's a political aspect to it as well.
Well... that post was all over the place. Sorry >.>
Speaking specifically of 2nd generation nationals (Children of immigrants), the difficulties they experience are those they themselves encounter when their Birth Culture - or more specifically, the customs, attitudes and habits of the culture of their parents - clashes with the culture of the resident country.
This is highly evident with young people from the West Indies, and from young people from India and Pakistan.
These original cultures have some pretty profound and stringent customs, attitudes and ethics. Transposing them into a different (western) culture poses extremely profound problems. Westerners simply do not have the same points of view and would go so far as to outright condemn them.
It's like combining Oil and Water.
And Oil and Water don't mix, no matter how hard you shake the bottle.....
There is tremendous pressure from families on young people, to conform to traditional cultural values - but equally, there is the quotidian influence of a Western environment that screams "We do things differently here!!"
It's a dreadful dilemma, and not a bag of hand-grenades I'd be willing to juggle with....
I think a person taken out from his culture may or may not suffer. A baby may not know his culture yet to suffer and when he grows up, he may or may not suffer depending on whether if he could accept the spot he is in. Most of the time, if you don't know your culture, you won't miss it. As for an older person to be taken from his own culture, you'd not be surprised to find that some people would welcome it. I would not think it depends on the country though; it's more on the person's mental makeup of the person.
Dear ShiftPlusOne,
It would be easy to integrate anywhere as long as everyone is treated fairly. In Australia, I heard one can get to learn English free of charge and this is perhaps, a tool for integration. Australia, I heard, has also some of the white population who are very anti- Asian. There used to be a lady MP who make headlines for being just that. So, now, I wonder if all those dancing and mingling is just superficial. And if this goes off-topic, well, it doesn't matter. We just learn about other things other then whether or not Buddhists accept Elton John's baby. He would be better than Rosemary's baby, I bet.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people who don't like Asians, and to be honest, that's they are entitled to that. It's not a matter of 'White' people disliking others, it's all around. Asians don't like White people, Indians don't like Asians and so on. Of course that's not the general public... that's just some people. You'll find that everywhere. Australia isn't magic ponyland where everyone loves each other, lol.
You may have also heard about the attacks on Indian students. We have somewhat of a problem with drunk bogans (Australian rednecks) getting drunk and harassing people on the trains. Indian students tend to looks for cheap housing, which end up being in bad neighbourhoods and they also tend to be out late and be generally loud. So naturally, that just draws in people who are looking for a fight. Hell, I've been attacked as well and that's because I was in a bad neighbourhood at night too. So, a lot of the "attacks on Indian students" are just people being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But here's the difference between Australia and elsewhere. People, for the most part, don't care about your differences. You can hold whatever opinions you want and nobody is going to beat you up for them. You can be whatever colour you want and nobody is going to beat you up for it. Also, when Australians say racist things it's normally just someone obnoxious trying to be funny. It's not said with hatred and anger, just ignorance and trying to get a reaction. I still have to put up with it too.
On one of the TV shows where people can go on and to their own skit, they had an American guest judge. An Indian group of students (at least one of them a doctor) did a jackson 5 impersonation with black make up on. The American judge was offended to no end and the incident went all over US news. I think that demonstrated the difference in attitude pretty well. To Australians, there were no offensive connotation, it wasn't about black-face slapstick it was just what it was. Yet to the American media, it was an "Australians are racist!" story. It's like the media there doesn't even know what racism is anymore.
Ahmm, I forget what all of that had to do with anything. I was just trying to say that a small minority doesn't represent the general attitude. The fact remains that the groups of friends I know don't really care about race and get along just fine with everyone. An odd comment about curry and papadams or how Asians are taking over is always going to come out from some obnoxious fool, but that's all it is.
Basically, we've had a colourful history, but which country hasn't?.
That's certainly not where we are now.
That was very enlightening. Thanks. I suppose sometimes it is more appropriate to stay in a country and live out a life there to really understand the situation. The media can after all be manipulated. I think Buddha did encourage people to investigate and not to just read and believe. I think there must be some quote from him but it escapes my mind just like I have forgotten that Handson lady's name. Now that you mention it, I remember. That was so long ago. Thanks!
Cinorjer,
I tend to think that way too, people are people, everyone. There are good people everywhere but it's the bad apples who manage to get the attention!