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Seeking liberation without rebirth.
Joshua
Veteran
My question is where is the supreme determination to attain liberation to be found if you do not believe in a literal, meta-physical rebirth? It's in my current belief that Buddhism without rebirth operates no further than a very brilliant eastern psychology. Aside from that subjectivity, if I am not to dread a bad rebirth, I feel that seeking--excuse my westernism--sainthood is quite the extreme for anyone on account that for most the pleasures of life do, in fact, bring a conventional happiness which can be well sustained using the psychological remedies of the eightfold path. This isn't the supreme bliss found in Buddhism's tenets on realizing emptiness, but does it really matter all that much without rebirth?
Any opinions?
Thanks
Any opinions?
Thanks
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I was never motivated by a negative fear of rebirth. As for most people, death was never much on the radar. Irrespective of whether rebirth exists or not, the peace of mind that Buddhism has brought to myself is, in my subjective experience, immeasurable. Just to live with no more anxiety is a great boon. To me, that alone is enough to tread the path. And that benefit has been generated by working with emotions through meditation in shamatha and vipishana according to the View of Buddhism.
Cheers, WK
I find it is profoundly liberating to stare into the mirror of dharma. To declare that, though I cannot be certain, this is my last life, this is it, all there is.
It is liberating to focus in this life rather than clinging to the unfounded hope in an afterlife in any sense.
The idea of an afterlife is an idea used to control, I think we should be mindful, open and honest with ourselves about this.
Your post misunderstands those members of the Noble Sangha and the Buddha himself, who sought Nibbana simply due to being completely dissatisfied with worldly life and especially sensual pleasures.
The sensual pleasures of life DO NOT, in fact, bring a conventional happiness and the sensual pleasures of life CANNOT be well sustained using the remedies of the eightfold path.
How can this be the case when the second factor of the N8FP is renunciating sensual pleasures? How can this be the case when the N8FP is the middle way between sensuality & self-mortication.
You would benefit from reading the Alagaddupama Sutta.
but where there is indulgence in sense gratification, there will be withdrawal symptoms of craving; there will be sorrow
to detach from this may not be so easy
this is natural law; psychological reality
Remember that.
I don't see that sensual gratification will necessarily cause craving. i think it's possible to have sensual pleasure without the suffering of attachment, with an enlightened mind at least.
Also, the Buddha said there are four kinds of attachment and the first kind is simply attachment to sensual pleasures.
If one is indulging, one is attached. It is as simply as that. In fact, attachment occurs before indulgence. Attachment is a mental state. Induldgence is karma that occurs due to becoming.
As I said in another thread, many study Buddhism for years but remain infatuated with worldly things.
I don't agree with on account that we're misunderstanding our uses of conventional. I never said it would bring about a lasting, infallible happiness to lead a secular life but regardless, people do seem to have damn fine lives as my good friend recently and inquisitively pointed out to me about some Christian friends of his brother's. The family, whose daughter was a victim of the Columbine shooting , has experienced nothing but luck since, they own one of the nicest homes in the town I live in, tons of money, the husband tours around the country as a famous minister, they take regular vacations and eat amazing food each night; hell, the daughter is even becoming a professional singer. They may have a silly belief in a sky daddy and tons of indulgences but you better believe how unshakably happy and nice they are. I'm not denying Buddhism, obviously, I practice it. But are you denying that conventional happiness, I do not think that it will fade with time, they believe in God fully. They are famous because their daughter, with a gun to her head and faced with the question, "Do you believe in God?", professed "Yes!" after which they turned the wall into a Jack Pollock. With no conventional fear of death and one of the most solid conventional happinesses one can attain--the "real" American Dream, they will die "happy".
Therefore my question remains, on a conventional level bound without a conviction in rebirth, where is a motivation for Enlightenment? Or dare I say, should it even be sought?
sure it might be useful to not indulge but truly a necessity? no
but i don't believe neutrality is the goal. i believe that equanimity is. there is a difference. you could prefer a certain food over another but not attach to it. I listened to a dharma talk with Ajahn Brahm where he mentioned his favorite food recently. craving is the cause of suffering, not preference.
if preference were a form of craving then enlightenment would literally be impossible. you couldn't do anything. you couldn't prefer life over death. you couldn't prefer knowledge over ignorance. you couldn't prefer helping others to doing nothing. preference is necessary, but does not cause suffering.
About those brain scans, I certainly know that too as one of my favourites, Matthieu Ricard, has had some 10,000 hours of meditation scanned. There's another video on youtube that I'm not going to look for because I doubt anyone would watch it, but it's about how advanced meditation practitioners' brains literally produce twice as many gamma waves as normal brains apparently meaning they're twice as conscious. I don't know what the hell that means, but it sounds tantalising?
we get experiences through our six sense bases
each and every experience we have is a result (effect) of a past action (cause)
if we can be mindful to a result (an experience we get through one of the sense base)we get, do we make that experience a cause for a future effect?
if we do not mindful what would be the result?
(think a bit more, try to practice with the experiences like seeing, hearing etc. and see what will happens)
of course, if you like, otherwise just let go
how?
please explain?
thanks
Oh, and the answer lies with karma and dependent origination. You see, they're like two sides of the same coin that span infinite time in a staggeringly complex network of cause and effect scenarios which, obviously, also overlap with emptiness. That's the how isn't it?
Or is this an issue of determinism versus free will?
if there is no form or perception or feeling or kamma formation for conciousness to reside, then there is no rebirth
when one is mindful with one's experience then there is no form or perception or feeling or kamma formation for consciousness to reside and there is no rebirth (the next moment is not depend on the previous moment for people but still the life goes on as usual because they are not yet enlightened)
since you understand above it is (dependent origination) the most relevant 'thing' regard to this thread
2. as you already know very well, first we have to understand dependent origination
3. again as you already know, even the Lord Buddha can show the way, but we have to walk the Path (first walk towards the Path with faith and then we can walk the Path)
Wellcome!!!
I think this is a very important question because if your intentions are to spread the dharma, even if you've somehow come to a convicted conclusion in rebirth, nobody else has and therefore this question will intuitively and viscerally plague most westerners' minds.
Namaste
Regarding the karma ripening "when their time comes" as well as what Cloud said, yes that's all true under the assumption that multiple lifetimes will occur. If they don't I believe it will hinder awakening as advertised in Buddhism. Perhaps few have an unshakable conviction in it, but I'm certain absolute uncertainty will hinder a person's awakening unless you're implying that with purified karma comes the "duh!" situation where you realize that obviously rebirth exists 'cause the mental continuum just keeps on a-goin' even when this vessel rots? It's a great and elaborate theory of reality that I obviously love, as I spend an enormous amount of time reading about it. Regardless it takes faith and faith means no matter how probable Buddhism is, points like rebirth might not exist.
It's easy to ascertain that it's likely that the mind has no inherent existence and that there's no permanent lego-like attributes that create it. Causal relationships are common sense that when systematized and broken apart into different angles like karma, dependent origination and emptiness ring amazingly true. Okay. But a mental continuum that has existed forever. That takes a leap of faith, especially for westerners; and that's, in fact, the entire point of enlightenment without which one seeks unknowingly nothing more than a supreme eastern psychology.
** And I'm writing this all out very quickly in a rush with holes in thought and no skill for cohesion. I greatly apologize if I'm making anyone defensive. Especially you DD, eh, it's complicated.
Namaste
:coffee:
:-/
I can experience my in & out breathing. That my body breathes in & out is not dependent on my volition or past karma.
I can put my hand in a fire. That my nervous system feels pain is not dependent on my volition or past karma.
The Buddha described Nibbana in many ways. One way was it is the cessation of karma. Another way was it is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion but the arahant still feels pleasure & pain. The arahant has ended karma but still feels pleasure & pain. The arahant's experience of pleasure & pain is not dependent on past karma.
The Buddha said perception (sanna) is called perception because it perceives. It perceives blue, green, red, yellow, etc. Regardless of volition or karma, perception will perceive difference.
Similarly, regardless of volition or karma, consciousness will be conscious via the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind.
Naturally, I do not subscribe to the view all we experience is due to past karma.
I might be meditating under a tree and a plane falls from the sky and injures me. My experience is not related to my past karma.
Hair grows from my face and I must shave. The hair growing from my face is not related to past karma.
Although the Buddha himself did not teach about a mental continuum, even a mental continuum existed, believing in rebirth will not stop any "rebirth". Only freeing the mind from craving & self-view will stop "rebirth". Only ending becoming will end any "rebirth". But each time you think about "rebirth", that is another becoming.
That is why the Buddha advised us: "Rebirth view is mundane right view on the side of morality (but not on the side of liberation). Rebirth view has asava (mental impurity) and sides with becoming (attachment)".
It is like a chicken coop. Liberation is about how to clean the chicken coop but your posts are only about the chicken droppings.
Further, the only morality transgressor is your mind given you posted slander.
My speech was true, not false. It was beneficial, not senseless. It was straightforward, not harsh. It accorded with the Dhamma, thus not divisive.
As I said: YOU ARE NOT A TEACHER. YOUR POSTS ARE AS YOU STATED: UNCOHESIVE
Alternatively, if my mind attained stream-entry, then how silly does that make your posts look, with you attempting to instruct a stream-enterer, an ariyan disciple?
There are many rebirth threads currently operative. I have not posted on any of them.
This thread is for non-rebirthers, in 'Advanced Ideas'.
Best you move on Valois. It is you who are out of place.
It is you who slander the Tathagata by belittling his supramundane teachings.
An example is that teachers aren't supposed to introduce the full depth of certain teachings to newbies, a common one being emptiness in whose case the adverse results could be falling into nihilism or dropping the bodhisattva vow. So you see, skill must always be employed without which one would qualify as sloppy.
To suggest that you know better than I where to put threads and what qualifies as worthy questions only propagates your own sense of self thereby proving that you have no spiritual attainments which is especially interesting when considering that lying about spiritual attainments will get you expelled from a monastery and to aggressively preach the dharma that you don't even understand will certainly develop a very negative karmic legacy.
(Not that you're a Mahayanist, but regardless) See: Also, it's not slander, if I'm to be condemned of anything it's libel. This is open to interpretation so let your notoriety speak for itself. Would you also tell a monk this?
2. The Buddha taught all I teach is suffering & its cessation.
3. If liberation is not psychological, then what is it? Physical?
4. The Buddha taught hiri-ottappa are two of five gates to the Dhamma. Shame towards & fear of doing evil. One does not have to beleive in rebirth to refrain from evil. Why? Because evil (harm) causes suffering.
5. Rebirth belief is also eastern psychology. It promotes non-harming or prevents self-harm.
6. The Buddha said sensual pleasures bring little happiness but much suffering & disappointment. The Buddha said sensual pleasure are an obstacle to the 8FP.
7. If you believe in rebirth & not in sainthood then how will you gain a good rebirth? Can you be certain to believe in rebirth, engage in sensual pleasures but not in sainthood will not lead to rebirth in the realm of the hungry ghosts?
8. To end, believing in rebirth & engaging in sensual pleasures will certainly not result in liberation. That is impossible. But not believing in rebirth but abstaining from sensual pleasures can result in liberation. That is certainly possible.
Your posts, especially the opening post, are full of fallacies.
Your personal attacks demonstrate you have been defeated in debate.
Your opening post asked answers from non-rebirthers but you will not accept those answers.
Your opening post encouraged people to indulge unskillfully in non-liberating & dangerous sensual pleasures.
Personally, if I was you, I would be deeply questioning my motives.