Seeking liberation without rebirth.

DhammaDhatu

THE BODHISATTVA VOWS

The Eighteen Root Downfalls

12. discouraging others from seeking full enlightenment

13. causing others to break the vows of Individual Liberation

14. belittling those who follow the path of Individual Liberation

17. laying down harmful regulations and passing false judgement



The Forty-Six Secondary Downfalls

2. acting out of desire because of discontent

13. wasting time on frivolous actions such as carelessness, lack of pure morality, dancing, playing music just for fun, gossiping and also distracting others in meditation

14. misconceiving that bodhisattvas do not attempt to attain liberation and failing to view delusions as things to be eliminated

24. not seeking the means to develop concentration

25. not abandoning the five obscurations which hinder meditative stabilisations

27. abandoning the path of Theravada as unnecessary for one following the Mahayana

http://www.bodhicitta.net/BODHISATTVAVOWS.htm

Joshua

You're not comprehending my question.

I know enlightenment isn't physical, this entire thread is a means of helping spread the dharma to my friends that I talk philosophy with every day. My best friend and roommate in particular is very interested but is very agnostic by nature and I also know many western Buddhists are agnostic so from this viewpoint I'm attempting to help them see the dharma in the way they require.

I understand how sensual pleasures operate with Buddhism but you really need to put yourself in their shoes to understand the situation. If everyone could just be Dhamma Dhatu I'm sure the universe would be a better place but unfortunately, realistically most people don't believe in rebirth and that is a huge hindrance to developing an infallible motivation for enlightenment. To an agnostic person, Buddhism without rebirth is nothing more than an eastern psychology and to them, even if they pursue sensual pleasures and don't have supreme happiness it would still be much better with the eightfold path wouldn't it? Regardless of the potential for rebirth, they believe that when they die there's a very good chance that's the end of existence for them. Therefore to them enlightenment isn't that big of a deal, hence, where's the motivation?

..

Do you honestly believe you're without personal attacks?

..

I don't see the point of your Bodhisattva vow post, especially on account that you're guilty of anything I am.

DhammaDhatu

Dhamma Dhatu,

I don't agree with on account that we're misunderstanding our uses of conventional. I never said it would bring about a lasting, infallible happiness to lead a secular life but regardless, people do seem to have damn fine lives as my good friend recently and inquisitively pointed out to me about some Christian friends of his brother's. The family, whose daughter was a victim of the Columbine shooting , has experienced nothing but luck since, they own one of the nicest homes in the town I live in, tons of money, the husband tours around the country as a famous minister, they take regular vacations and eat amazing food each night; hell, the daughter is even becoming a professional singer. They may have a silly belief in a sky daddy and tons of indulgences but you better believe how unshakably happy and nice they are. I'm not denying Buddhism, obviously, I practice it. But are you denying that conventional happiness, I do not think that it will fade with time, they believe in God fully. They are famous because their daughter, with a gun to her head and faced with the question, "Do you believe in God?", professed "Yes!" after which they turned the wall into a Jack Pollock. With no conventional fear of death and one of the most solid conventional happinesses one can attain--the "real" American Dream, they will die "happy".

Therefore my question remains, on a conventional level bound without a conviction in rebirth, where is a motivation for Enlightenment? Or dare I say, should it even be sought?

Hi Valois

I must say again, your post above makes no sense at all, especially your closing question.

I can only recommend you abandon your evangelical drive.

The motivation for enlightenment comes when human beings are dissatisfied with sensual pleasure and/or do not believe in easy solutions for death, such as rebirth or going to heaven.

The motivation for enlightenment comes from the experience of unsatisfactoriness.

It is not related in any way to rebirth.

Best wishes

DD

DhammaDhatu

You're not comprehending my question.

...this entire thread is a means of helping spread the dharma to my friends that I talk philosophy with every day.

I'm attempting to help them see the dharma in the way they require.

...realistically most people don't believe in rebirth and that is a huge hindrance to developing an infallible motivation for enlightenment.

Do you honestly believe you're without personal attacks?

My posts reply to the spiritual views you post.

The Buddha said one stuck in the mud cannot pull another out of the mud.

I see nothing you have posted that motivates enlightenment.

Whatever your motives are, they are unrelated to this thread.

This thread remains open to members of this site.

This thread is also read by "my friends".

I am infallibly helping them see the dharma in the way they require.

Where as, your self-proclaimed attempts are merely that, merely "attempts".

Joshua

Well coincidentally I've restated it in my penultimate post.

Joshua

Eh, if you're wanting to pull out your big guns I suggest you do it soon as I need to leave for my apartment shortly as you're delaying me from my daily biking.

..

lol.

I'm stuck in the mud I see? I sort of viewed myself as somebody who began taking Buddhism seriously three months ago, I didn't claim nor infer any attainments.

..

I now regret all of this more than I anticipated. It's time for me to go back to my apartment. I'll show up here and there mobilely.

If I'm truly wrong then please demonstrate why in a succinct and compassionate manner for when I log back on later.

See you DD;
Josh

DhammaDhatu

I don't see the point of your Bodhisattva vow post, especially on account that you're guilty of anything I am.

I personally am not subject to Mahayana Bodhisatva vows (but Mahayana followers are). Sorry, but your view is in error, again.

DhammaDhatu

Eh, if you're wanting to pull out your big guns I suggest you do it soon as I need to leave for my apartment shortly as you're delaying me from my daily biking.

Big gun? More like the compost bin! Your delay is your own. Again, your view is incorrect.

Please be mindful on your bike. Remember the front & back breaks. We do not want you flying over the handlebars, do we.

Be heedful. Be concentrated.

With metta

DD

robot

well that was a waste of time and bandwidth.

DhammaDhatu

I sort of viewed myself as somebody who began taking Buddhism seriously three months ago. I now regret all of this more than I anticipated. If I'm truly wrong then please demonstrate why in a succinct and compassionate manner for when I log back on later.

You're welcome Josh

It makes me glad to read you have developed an interest in the Buddha-Dharma. But I can only advice you to not bite off more than you can chew.

As for regret, this emotion is praised greatly by the Bodhisatvas.

All the best

With metta

DD

Purifying Karma: The Four Opponent Powers

The Four Opponent Powers include a profound practice known as "The Bodhisattva's Confession of Ethical Downfalls."

Power of Regret
Power of Reliance/Repairing the Relationship
Power of Determination not to Repeat the Action
Power of Remedial Action

http://www.buddhism-blog.com/2006/06/purifying_karma.html

federica

Ok, we're going to quit this discussion now, because as happens on too many occasions, it stops being about the topic and starts being about whose righter.

Thanks to all who contributed Mindfully, and those whose contributions were less Mindful - get over yourselves.
Whatever you are "IRL", here, you're just contributory posters.
Grow up.