4 noble truths

Vincenzi

simplified (due to westerniz'ation... this shouldn't be on "advanced")

dukkha
trishna
atrishna
nirvåna

Dhammaduta

1. Dukkha sacca
2. Dukkha samudaya sacca
3. Dukkha nirodha sacca
4. Dukkha nirodhagamini patipada sacca

Vincenzi

nirodhagamini

निरोध nagåm...

PietroPumokin

paggyaomidi vargassapi donnmrikari

Vincenzi

dharm' dharma.

DhammaDhatu

dukkha = attachment to the five aggregates (as "I" and "mine")
cause of dukkha = craving (ignorant desire)
end of dukkha = end of craving & attachment
path to end dukkha = noble eightfold path

Vincenzi

nice, back to basics

federica

I have never moved away from basics.

Jeffrey

Can we speak it in english? Or does the forum mind if I start making all my responses in german? This is annoying me. Just venting, but I hope you will consider my plight.

federica

Jeffrey, this is the 'advanced ideas' forum. Certain diversions into Pali/Sanskrit may not be out of place here, amongst those who seem to know something of these 'languages'.
However, I do share your disquiet, in that English is sufficiently expressive for me to be able to convey and understand Dhammic intention.
Authenticity, I measure by evaluating what I read/hear, as recommended by the Buddha.
I really don't care for Pali or sanskrit.
I just study what I come across, and simplify.
There are countless arguments on the web regarding the true translation (and by association the true meaning) of The four Noble Truths(and of course, many other teachings).
Having studied the 4NT extensively (in English) and read much about the inference of the varied translations, I'm happy with my understanding of the subject.
Knowing the original terms in which a subject is conveyed, doesn't make anyone more knowledgeable on that subject. it means they know different words and terminology in which to convey something which essentially, is quite simple.
Hooray for translations.
Many of the translations on the internet, and in books, are extremely learned and accurate, so I really don't need all this foreign terminology.
Some do. Some like it. Some prefer it.
Some may feel it brings them closer to the Buddha, and the Dhamma.
Well, horses for courses.
If you like it lean on it.
If you don't, leave it.
I understand very little of what has been transmitted here.
do I care?
Not really.
Does it make me a lesser person?
I don't think so.

Don't worry Jeffrey.
It's really no big or clever deal, after all is said and done.
It just is what it is.

upalabhava

4NT: are not four words.

Vincenzi

Can we speak it in english? Or does the forum mind if I start making all my responses in german? This is annoying me. Just venting, but I hope you will consider my plight.

if you want, describe it in german and then add some (optional) translations...

Vincenzi

actually, the best languages to describe the Dharma are spanish and italian... with some concepts left unstranslated from sanskrit.

after many translations, the Dharma has being mudd'ied some-what... what's wrong about wanting to learn samskrita/påli and re-translate to make some (much needed, imo) corrections.

Jeffrey, this is the 'advanced ideas' forum. Certain diversions into Pali/Sanskrit may not be out of place here, amongst those who seem to know something of these 'languages'.
However, I do share your disquiet, in that English is sufficiently expressive for me to be able to convey and understand Dhammic intention.
Authenticity, I measure by evaluating what I read/hear, as recommended by the Buddha.
I really don't care for Pali or sanskrit.
I just study what I come across, and simplify.
There are countless arguments on the web regarding the true translation (and by association the true meaning) of The four Noble Truths(and of course, many other teachings).
Having studied the 4NT extensively (in English) and read much about the inference of the varied translations, I'm happy with my understanding of the subject.
Knowing the original terms in which a subject is conveyed, doesn't make anyone more knowledgeable on that subject. it means they know different words and terminology in which to convey something which essentially, is quite simple.
Hooray for translations.
Many of the translations on the internet, and in books, are extremely learned and accurate, so I really don't need all this foreign terminology.
Some do. Some like it. Some prefer it.
Some may feel it brings them closer to the Buddha, and the Dhamma.
Well, horses for courses.
If you like it lean on it.
If you don't, leave it.
I understand very little of what has been transmitted here.
do I care?
Not really.
Does it make me a lesser person?
I don't think so.

Don't worry Jeffrey.
It's really no big or clever deal, after all is said and done.
It just is what it is.

federica

The problem is, we have no guarantee that you are accurate in your projections and interpretation.
As this is an advanced Forum, feel free to use Pali/Sanskrit as necessary (with your chosen translation/interpretation following) but elsewhere - stick to English ONLY unless absolutely unavoidable.

Joshua

I'm sorry to do this but I need to know why Spanish and Italian are superior for describing the dharma. With Pali, Sanskrit, Spanish, Italian, English and even our dear German all being Indo-European languages it seems likely that they can all express the dharma equally. Italian in particular is rather close to French, especially grammatically with nuances like It. ne vs. Fr. en, Portuguese and Spanish are basically the same thing, as I'm sure you, being a native Spanish speaker, are already aware. Therefore it sounds to me that you're saying Romance languages are superior for expressing the dharma, could you please explain why? I have read that Sanskrit was rigorously perfected as a philosophy language--the analogy goes something like: for every philosophical term in English there's four in ancient Greek and four hundred in Sanskrit. That does sound like a bit of an exaggeration, however. I've read the Dhammapada in both Spanish and French and small portions in Pali and I have to say that the Pali is very ambiguous, the Spanish translation I read was poor but only the fault of the author's, the French was as good as the English. I will admit that my English is biased not only because it's my native language but also because I've sought a large variety of translations, but that's unimportant on account of the Pali. Also let me add, in my opinion, on account of the poetical nature of the Dhammapada, at least for that particular text, languages with more cases would probably do a better job, meaning Romance languages (besides Romanian) and English would be terrible as opposed to something like German.

Vincenzi

@federica: oki.

@Valois: it is more accurate to say that i can express the dharma in an easier way if it is in spanish (native language of this life) sanskrit/prakrit (not native in my prior life, but i did learned some concepts of this language... in my prior life; in Pleione, Pleiadi ...or deva na manarati) and italian (native in the prior-prior life, and one that i prefer in this life). AFAIK, there are no spanish or italian translations (at least not samyak/complete.

federica

So in fact, all your assertions have been from a focal point of your own EGO. This is the way it is for you.. This however, is unique, because unfortunately, we do not share your lingusitic preferences.

Right.
In which case, as you are on an English Forum, stick to common language, and forget Spanish/Italian or anything other than English.
I think that would be more acceptable than you flying off at different linguistic trajectories which mean absolutely nothing to the majority of members here.

Cloud

@anyone, The Four Noble Truths, even in English, can be difficult to get a good grasp on. I was listening to an audio lecture last night, about 50 minutes long or so, which rather succinctly points to the essence of these teachings. It even goes into the different "levels" or types of dukkha. Here's a link if anyone would care to dedicate some of their time to it: http://www.thedragonscave.org/archives/tdc/buddhist/audio/buddhanet_audio/mp3/b81101.mp3 (let me know what you think)

Namaste

thickpaper

I am working on a binary expression of the four noble truths. I am currently stuk on anica and anatman, so far I have:

0

But I am not sure how it ends.

(This gag would be much more funny if written in Pali.)

federica

Would it be a Palindrome?

sukhita

I am working on a binary expression of the four noble truths......

Good idea, after all the zero was discovered in the land of the Buddha.
BTW, the binary for "Four Noble Truths" is: 010001100110111101110101011100100010000001001
110011011110110001001101100011001010010000001
0101000111001001110101011101000110100001110011

Vincenzi

So in fact, all your assertions have been from a focal point of your own EGO. (...)

actually, I have an anagami-level understanding of anatta.

taiyaki

what is an anagami-level understanding of anatta?

not1not2

So in fact, all your assertions have been from a focal point of your own EGO. (...)

actually, I have an anagami-level understanding of anatta.

are you actually stating you've achieved the state of non returner

Vincenzi

@taiyaki

having broke the fetter of sakkāya-diṭṭhi (usually translated as "belief in self")

@not1not2

yes, without a doubt.

not1not2

have you had a teacher confirm this, or is this your own assessment?

Vincenzi

have you had a teacher confirm this, or is this your own assessment?

I have had no teacher to confirm this...

not1not2

have you had a teacher confirm this, or is this your own assessment?

I have had no teacher to confirm this...

Okay, just always get curious when someone makes such a claim, and that's one step away from arahant. Would you mind giving a bit more explanation as to how you know you've broken the 5 lower fetters?

DhammaDhatu

actually, I have an anagami-level understanding of anatta.

I have had no teacher to confirm this...

Are you sure?

aMatt

I have had no teacher to confirm this...

Said differently, "I have understood no teaching that convinced myself otherwise"

Vincenzi

jokes bordering on insults aside,

@not1not2
this fetters are broken:

Sakkāya-diṭṭhi: Belief in self
Vicikicchā: Skeptical doubt
Sīlabbata-parāmāsa: Attachment to rites and rituals
Kāma-rāga: Sensuous craving
Byāpāda: Ill will

I have had no aid of a teacher, because I have had no such luck. However I chosed this life (including exact country and family)... because that's what I was adviced (by my allies/friends) to chose. They were right.

The only teacher I follow is Shakyamuni and my own judgement.

Dharma Dhatu, stop with the laughing it isn't fitting for your username.

@aMatt

not really, "there's no reason to think the fetters are not broken".

seeker242

@Vincenzi

Have you ever read Chapter 9 of the Diamond Sutra? If so, what do you think of it?

not1not2

jokes bordering on insults aside,

@not1not2
this fetters are broken:

Sakkāya-diṭṭhi: Belief in self
Vicikicchā: Skeptical doubt
Sīlabbata-parāmāsa: Attachment to rites and rituals
Kāma-rāga: Sensuous craving
Byāpāda: Ill will

I have had no aid of a teacher, because I have had no such luck. However I chosed this life (including exact country and family)... because that's what I was adviced (by my allies/friends) to chose. They were right.

The only teacher I follow is Shakyamuni and my own judgement.

Dharma Dhatu, stop with the laughing it isn't fitting for your username.

@aMatt

not really, "there's no reason to think the fetters are not broken".

@Vincenzi

While it's not a good idea to laugh, I hope you can understand why someone would react that way. You're right on the doorstep of enlightenment by your own account. The self view is deep and subtle, as are all the fetters. Now, I am not in a position to judge your attainment in the first place, as only enlightened folk are truly capable of judging other enlightened folk. But over the internet, it's even harder to determine the validity of such a statement.

I myself am hopeful, yet doubtful of your attainment. I've come across many folk who considered themselves enlightened or something very close on more than one occasion and their postings usually indicate otherwise. I haven't seen enough from you to negate your claim or anything and that's not my real intention either. It's just an awfully large conclusion to come to, especially based on your own assessment. That said, I am aware of the fetters a non-returner has broken through and you didn't really answer my question as to how you've made such an assessment, but I won't bother to press any further.

Spaceless

@Vincenzi

Have you ever read Chapter 9 of the Diamond Sutra? If so, what do you think of it?

It should not have a thought either :rarr:

DhammaDhatu

Kāma-rāga: Sensuous craving...

are you married, do i recall?

if so, have you stopped the jiggy jig with your wife?

Vincenzi

@Vincenzi

Have you ever read Chapter 9 of the Diamond Sutra? If so, what do you think of it?

i am nominally Zen, however... i am not a mahayanist; AFAIK the Diamond Sutra is not part of the Pali Tripitaka.

Vincenzi

@not1not2

mostly, it is buddhist peer review...

Sakkāya-diṭṭhi: Belief in self
anatta just makes sense, there's no easy way to express it... but it just makes sense. the atman is a concept of fools.

Vicikicchā: Skeptical doubt
there's no doubt in the fact that the Dharma can free anyone from Dukkha.

Sīlabbata-parāmāsa: Attachment to rites and rituals
rites and rituals are not really important to be free from Dukkha and understanding the Dharma.

Kāma-rāga: Sensuous craving
sensual pleasures are nice when they happen, but only a fool will crave them or actively seek them.

Byāpāda: Ill will
there's no hate or ill toughts with regards to the rest of beings, even when humans "deserve" it; karuna and ahimsa neutralize that.

Vincenzi

Kāma-rāga: Sensuous craving...

are you married, do i recall?

if so, have you stopped the jiggy jig with your wife?

that's a silly question.

simply, I reserve the right to marry and have a job. my civil state (spelling?) is "anāgami" more than "single".

don't forget the rāga part, I don't crave sensual pleasures; nor do I actively seek them.

not1not2

@not1not2

mostly, it is buddhist peer review...

Sakkāya-diṭṭhi: Belief in self
anatta just makes sense, there's no easy way to express it... but it just makes sense. the atman is a concept of fools.

Vicikicchā: Skeptical doubt
there's no doubt in the fact the Dharma can free anyone from Dukkha.

Sīlabbata-parāmāsa: Attachment to rites and rituals
rites and rituals are not really important to be free from Dukkha and understanding the Dharma.

Kāma-rāga: Sensuous craving
sensual pleasures are nice when they happen, but only a fool will crave them or actively seek them.

Byāpāda: Ill will
there's no hate or ill toughts with regards to the rest of beings, even when humans "deserve" it; karuna and ahimsa neutralize that.

Fair enough, anatta makes plenty of sense to me as well, and I feel I've had some breakthroughs into that as well as emptiness, but just be careful that you don't confuse intellectual comprehension with a full removal of self-view. No idea where you are in your practice, but best wishes regardless.

Vincenzi

@not1not2

my favorite mental state is either jhāna or simply anapanasati.

verbal tought, which includes self-views for its expression (to others) is inferior... telepathy and similar will probably be better.

focus on anicca too.

not1not2

in my view, anatta and anicca are overlapping truths.

Vincenzi

anicca is more general... but, anicca of (atomistic) self is basically anatta.

DhammaDhatu

don't forget the rāga part, I don't crave sensual pleasures; nor do I actively seek them

it is more than just "seeking" them. it includes "delighting" in them; enjoying them

for example, i do not mean to sound rude or silly, but without rāga, how does an erection of the penis happen? :scratch:

also, the Buddha said it is impossible for an arahant to partake in the sexual act. what is your opinion on this? thanks

not1not2

anicca is more general... but, anicca of (atomistic) self is basically anatta.

Anicca applies to all conditioned things, and is more of a temporal view and supporting point to anatta, whereas anatta applies to the unconditioned and conditioned.

DhammaDhatu

sensual pleasures are nice when they happen, but only a fool will crave them or actively seek them.

my question was answered above

fail ... no non-returner... no $200 ... do not passing 'go' :sawed:

demoted to 'speculative once-returner'

the Buddha defined 'craving' as follows:

The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust :nyah: , and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth

DhammaDhatu

in my view, anatta and anicca are overlapping truths. :buck:

Anicca applies to all conditioned things and can be used as supporting point for a basic understanding of anatta, whereas anatta applies to the unconditioned (permanent) and conditioned (impermanent).

Ultimately, anatta has no relationship with anicca whatsoever.

All things whatever are anatta, independent of anicca.

If there was no anicca, all things would remain anatta.

Whatever is examined, no "self" can be found within that thing

For example, take some physical flesh and put it under a microscope. One is not required to observe any impermanence to observe no "Self" be found there.

not1not2

in my view, anatta and anicca are overlapping truths. :buck:

Anicca applies to all conditioned things and supporting point to anatta, whereas anatta applies to the unconditioned (permanent) and conditioned (impermanent).

Ultimately, anatta has not relationship with anicca whatsoever

In regard to the unconditioned, sure, there is no relation between anicca and anatta. In regard to the conditioned, the mere fact that no conditioned thing is permanent is an argument laid out by the Buddha himself multiple times in the suttas. And even without that, basic logic affirms the relationship. Atta/self was regarded as a permanent essence, therefore the truth of anicca negates the possibility of such a self being found within the conditioned.

Once again, I feel like we are speaking past each other, not truly disagreeing. Oh well.

DhammaDhatu

In regard to the conditioned, the mere fact that no conditioned thing is permanent is an argument laid out by the Buddha himself multiple times in the suttas.

Once again, I feel like we are speaking past each other, not truly disagreeing.

The problem rests in your not reading my posts. You are speaking past DD but DD is not speaking past you. DD is truely disagreeing but you are trying to make some agreement.

I already said: "Anicca applies to all conditioned things and can be used as supporting point for a basic [kindergarten] understanding of anatta".

But when insight into anatta reaches the level of sunnata, it is independent of anicca and not dependent on anicca.

When body is seen as 'body' (rather than 'self'); when feeling is seen as 'feeling' (rather than 'self'), etc, etc, etc, such clear seeing is not dependent upon anicca to observe anatta.

not1not2

Thanks for educating me on things I already know. I'll take that as an act of good will, albeit an unnecessary one. Your assumptions of my ignorance on issues I did not speak about are tiresome, but I wish you well.

What was this thread about again?

DhammaDhatu

Thanks for educating me on things I already know. I'll take that as an act of good will, albeit an unnecessary one. Your assumptions of my ignorance on issues I did not speak about are tiresome, but I wish you well.

What was this thread about again?

This thread is about the 4NTs, which assert attachment (identification) to the five aggregates is suffering (tiresome) :hrm:

seeker242

@Vincenzi

Have you ever read Chapter 9 of the Diamond Sutra? If so, what do you think of it?

i am nominally Zen, however... i am not a mahayanist; AFAIK the Diamond Sutra is not part of the Pali Tripitaka.

Ok, this is from the Pali Cannon.

Bhikkhus, these ideas: "I am...", "I am this...", "I will be...", "I shall not be...",
"I shall be of such form", "I shall be formless...", "I will experience such...",
"I will not experience...", "I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient...",
are all self-deceptions, are all conceited fantasies, are all whimsy illusions,
are all agitated excitations, are escalated proliferations & are all inflated,
vain & narcissistic self-love, leading to egotism, puffed pride & arrogance!
Such self-deceptions are all diseases, such ego-conceits are all tumors,
such egocentric phantasms are all internal, and agonizing hooks in the mind!
Therefore, bhikkhus & friends, you should train yourselves in this very way:

We will dwell with a mind unperturbed by any "I exists..." conceiving...
We will dwell with a mind purified of any "I am this/that" self-deception...
We will dwell with a mind uninvolved in any "I will be this or that" illusion...
We will dwell with a mind without any "I shall not be this/that" agitation...
We will dwell with a mind devoid of any "I will have such a form" fantasy...
We will dwell with a mind cleaned of any "I shall be formless" escalation...
We will dwell with a mind empty of "I will experience such" proliferation...
We will dwell with a mind cleared of any "I will not experience" excitation...
Since these ideas are all self-deceptions, conceited fantasies, illusions,
agitated excitations, escalated proliferations, and are all inflated, vain &
narcissistic self-centered ego-love, leading to egotism, pride & arrogance...
Self-deceptions are all mental diseases! Ego-conceits are puffed inflations!
Egocentric phantasms are internally agonizing & painful hooks in the mind,
which incur inestimable future suffering!!! The cure is understanding the
absolute selflessness of all things, whether they are internal or external...
Thus should you train yourselves...

Doesn't that also include "I have an anagami-level understanding"???