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Now I'm angry...
Dear all,
I will start by explaining, that most of the sutta information I attached to with other posts has actually been written by another ex-monk. He makes it clear that he believes the translations to the sutta's presented to be accurate. While I am still working through his translations, I attached them to see what the rest of you might think. I have been however unprepared for the personal attacks, which not only question my own faith and understanding of Buddhist texts but also question my life.
All I can say to those of you who feel obliged to make these sorts of comments about me is...save them. I'm not interested in your opinions. I am interested in people who have constructive critizism about the information I have supplied. I don't know how the rest of you feel, so I though I would vent anyway.
Esau...
I will start by explaining, that most of the sutta information I attached to with other posts has actually been written by another ex-monk. He makes it clear that he believes the translations to the sutta's presented to be accurate. While I am still working through his translations, I attached them to see what the rest of you might think. I have been however unprepared for the personal attacks, which not only question my own faith and understanding of Buddhist texts but also question my life.
All I can say to those of you who feel obliged to make these sorts of comments about me is...save them. I'm not interested in your opinions. I am interested in people who have constructive critizism about the information I have supplied. I don't know how the rest of you feel, so I though I would vent anyway.
Esau...
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Comments
Don't be angry....
And if for my part I have said anything anywhere to offend you, it was never my intention, and I apologise....
I think though, that I've only referred to one of your posts when I stated that you'd lost me at "Hyia all,".... And I wasn't trying to be rude....I was being genuine.....
I find it very difficult to get my head round some of the more complex and deep, detailed and potentially controversial aspects of Buddhism.... I don't mind admitting, I've said it before (and doubtless will again!) I'm a very simple Soul (I use the term advisedly!) and am still coming to a deep and comprehensive understanding of the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path.....(Currently under discussion elsewhere.)
I hope to further my studies. I hope to integrate further teachings and things I learn, in order to improve the current model - work-in-progress -!! :crazy:
Hope you're managing to be less angry..... or at least to 'channel' it.....
If I'm mistaken then I sincerely apologise. I hope very much that I am, but as someone who has personally seen what the Dark Zen people did in other forums, such as Beliefnet and Tricycle, using incidentally the same approach that you have, I for one would recommend that when copying and pasting, the source of the article is acknowledged. The piece you posted in fact gives no indication whatsoever that it's copied and that, at the very least is disingeneous.
If someone tries to present as Buddhist, pieces that are completely contrary to what all Buddhist schools hold in common, particularly if the source is a group well known for it's agenda of disruption and misrepresentation of Buddhist forums, then it is not altogether surprising that the person responsible is asked to account for this. The piece you used is not written by an ex monk at all, something that someone who had actually been a Theravadin monastic would have known by the way, but instead was written by a gentleman called Ken Lee Wheeler, a.k.a Ancientbuddhism, Aryasatvan and various other names. Ken is well known in Buddhist circles as a very unpleasant individual who is not by any stretch of the imagination Buddhist, but seeks to mislead newcomers to Buddhism and disrupt Buddhist forums wherever possible.
I noted with some interest too that whilst you quoted in full the ridiculous piece on the MahaPariNirvana Sutra (which I would add includes some of the worst translation I have ever come across - a favourite tactic of the Dark Zen group), you neglected to include some of Mr Wheeler's other choice phrases on the same site, such as the section immediately preceding the one you copied. It's entitled, "Why is modern "Buddhism" such a magnet for evil and foul peoples?" Then there is the section entitled "Vajrayana is Perverts Buddhism", where the Chinese invasion of Tibet is aplauded. You also missed the one called "THERAVADA PRAISES EVIL" and "Why is modern “Buddhism” evil?", as well as the telling description of the website as being, "an Anti-Guru, Anti-Zen-Master, Anti-Lama, Anti-Rimpoche, and Anti-bhikkhu site." Having had to put up with Ken's nonsense for some time now, I do admit that the site has definitely improved since it contained pictures of dead bodies with the call, if I recall correctly, for Buddhist monks and nuns to be killed.
The attacks have not been at you but from you it would seem and you have, as my US cousins would say, been well and truly busted. For those wishing to confirm where the original article really did originate from, try this site
http://www.attan.com/
I have a strong suspcion however that the site will suddenly disappear, so if for those who want to google it, use the cached option to view the original pages.
Ok....Well, hello Oxbridge_academic, and welcome to the forum.....!
That's quite an entrance - !!:D
I'm quite wet behind the ears in many Buddhist matters, and I must say I had never heard of this Dark Zen body before today.... They don't sound 'jolly fun'.....!
As far as I can see, there has been no suggestion of disruption on this site. As you will know, if you read back, this is a group whose norms include a high level of tolerance and respect. We are all, at the least, interested in Buddhism and many of us have involvement in other disciplines as well. As against some other Buddhist fora, Brian has not banned any 'school', although I am sure he is not unaware of the animosity towards "Dark Zen" and NKT which has resulted in their exclusion elsewhere.
It will be good to have another scholar among us. Do you want to share anything more about yourself?
The purpose of this site is to provide a safe, reassuring place for those who are new to Buddhism or who have questions about it to congregate and ask questions without feeling overwhelmed, preached to, or otherwise scared off by those who claim some sort of superiority in their buddhist education or advancement along whatever path they follow. Choose your posts and arguments carefully, and if your words do not serve this goal, take it to an argument site.
I've just checked out that site and blimey O'Reilly, what a complete and utter bunch of arse it comes across as.
To be honest, if they are trying to convice people to go with what they're espousing (whether or not there is any thruth in it at all) then they are going about it the wrong way.
The whole thing comes across as moralistic, egotistical, and quite frankly ridiculous.
The whole tone of the site leaves an extremely bad taste in my mouth.
For an example of the journalistic skills of the writer I urge you to check out the link to the Rama-Lama Ding-Dong cult on the first page (you may want to do a "find on page" search as it's nestled in amongst all the other nonsense).
However, and I must make this point, I am in no way accusing Esau of being associated with this site.
The passage he quoted may well have originally been taken from this site by another person and pasted, via the gift of the Interweb, somewhere else where Esau then found it.
And can I say thank you very much for providing this. :bowdown:
It is for that reason that I spend my time here rather than some other online Sanghas. Here you can post something safe in the knowledge that if your view is incorrect you will get friendly advice rather than ridicule.
Thanks again,
Adrian
:cheer:
*WEARING MODERATOR'S HAT:*
I couldn't agree more Simon. I'm both pleased and relieved that he has commented as he has done.
However, it's fair to add that if anyone has any situations they'd like to discuss, or that they are concerned about, please feel free to approach me also.
I have spoken to a couple of members in PM's and they are aware of how I too have been both cautiously and quietly observing the way this has been heading.
Any misgivings, let me know.
while I will immediately admit that I do not hold the same authority as Brian, please feel free to use me as a sounding board.
"For an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person there arise gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. For a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones there also arise gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?"
"For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their arbitrator. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it."
"In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "Gain arises for an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person. He does not reflect, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He does not discern it as it actually is.
"Loss arises... Status arises... Disgrace arises... Censure arises... Praise arises... Pleasure arises...
"Pain arises. He does not reflect, 'Pain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He does not discern it as it actually is.
"His mind remains consumed with the gain. His mind remains consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind remains consumed with the pain.
"He welcomes the arisen gain and rebels against the arisen loss. He welcomes the arisen status and rebels against the arisen disgrace. He welcomes the arisen praise and rebels against the arisen censure. He welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
"Now, gain arises for a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones. He reflects, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.
"Loss arises... Status arises... Disgrace arises... Censure arises... Praise arises... Pleasure arises...
"Pain arises. He reflects, 'Pain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.
"His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind does not remain consumed with the pain.
"He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person."
Gain/loss,
status/disgrace,
censure/praise,
pleasure/pain:
these conditions among human beings
are inconstant,
impermanent,
subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don't charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.
- Lokavipatti Sutta: AN VIII.6
I was just thinking the same thing!?:eek: :hair:
Adiana:wow:
wow!
did you see the big man putting his foot down?
i feel like my dad just got home and is taking off his belt!
*creeps quietly into the next room...*
-bf
Boy!, the author takes a pretty militant, denigrating view of everything he doesn't believe in or like.
Site seemed harsh to me.
-bf
Now, I wasn't trying to disrupt, upset or anything. I attached the "stuff" from this guy to let others see what he was saying and to get their input. Now I have it. I won't post it!!!!
As for people having a go at me being a monk, I was a Thervadin and still do follow the basics. All I'm doing is exploring other avenues and seeing where they take me.
Esau
Without breaking confidentiality, I have been approached by several members of the forum.
I'm convinced that the matter has arisen as a series of misunderstandings and there is the distinct possibility that conclusions were jumped to, rather more hastily than necessary. I feel it important at this point to respectfully remind everyone that they should consider both the wording of their posts and the effects they are liable to have on anyone else reading them. New, established, novice or experienced.
Far be it from me to ever set myself up as an authority on Buddhism, but it is a salutary lesson for us all, to -
Be mindful, people.
"Measure it twice son - you'll only be cutting it the once."
Thank you
As Fede said, I think this has just been a big misunderstanding. Just let this one roll off yer back.
In with the good air, Out with the bad.
In with the good air, Out with the bad.
In with the good air, Out with the bad.
In with the good air, Out with the bad.
In with the good air, Out with the bad.
-bf
Again I will apologise for upsetting anyone with the attachments that I added, It was never meant to be a malious act or any act for that matter . I realise now that I should be super careful notifying the forum where I recieved the information from and how I personally view such material. As for the Attan site, I couldn't agree more with you all. I too noted the threats and accusations, however I dismissed these as simple ravings. I didn't add the rest of it as I only took what I believed relevant to the discussion at hand.
I am hoping that the forum will forgive my oversight and allow me to now move on to different topics. Thankyou.
Esau
I can only speak for myself and I want to say that I think you have nothing for which to apologise. What you posted was fascinating and so was the ensuing discussion. Above all, it showed how strong a group this is and how committed to respect, kindness and honesty.
-bf
You did not offend me with anything you posted either; I found your post to be very thought-provoking :wow: and that is a good thing to me. It makes me think and I like that.
Adiana:wavey: