After inner peace...

Pilot

After meditation, I gain temporary mindfulness over the things I do in everyday life. Commuting to school, I see things I haven't seen before. It's like I'm a sponge that soaks everything in. Until, I realize that I can't hold on to this 'feeling' of inner bliss, and that this is all temporary until I achieve enlightenment.

Then I question myself, do I meditate to free myself from being sad? The bliss is definitely a plus, I think I may be looking at it as the only reason why I meditate. In a way, isn't meditation meditation a way of aversion? I see myself being attached to the feel good add-ons of meditation and I just get the feeling of being down when I realize that this too shall pass.

Thoughts my fellow truth seekers?

federica

Don't let it pass.
Why can you not hold onto it?
(leave aside the complexity of whether this is a skilful attachment or not... I'm asking why you consider it temporary....)

Cloud

@Pilot, This is developing right view. You're seeing an attachment to bliss, a thirst or craving that has a dukkha component. I wouldn't stop meditating, but rather try to focus on the impermanent, not-self reality and the Four Noble Truths. When the mind goes beyond the bliss of samadhi and finds wisdom, it finds peace. To be sure this peace is temporary, but the mind learns that seeing truth brings peace much more assuredly than seeking pleasure. After this the mind focuses only on deeper and more complete penetration of the truth, leading to Nirvana.

Namaste

Pilot

Thank you for the replies.

@Federica
Why do I consider mindfulness temporary? Experience. Maybe it is my untrained mind. I try my best to 'catch' thoughts as they arise but school, life and just generally living distracts me from being mindful in a sense. Perhaps I should cultivate mindfulness more? Is this something that the mind 'learns' and progresses?

@Cloud
Getting sidetracked here a bit with my response but it relates to insight gained through meditation.
To be quite honest, I am not quite sure when I should stop meditating. I mean some days I could sit for hours and hours but the troubling part is, I can't differentiate insight from thoughts. Hard to explain. I learn something from my meditation, but I can't help but think that these are just thoughts. Do I dwell in them? Or do I observe it, note it, then let it go?

Like the other day, I think I may have discovered the truth of impermanence first hand. It's easy to look for superficial examples of impermanence, i.e. death, the seasons, feelings, cravings etc. I was observing pain and sensory feelings, and by observing it I felt it 'come' and go. It's really hard to put it so eloquently.

Anyway, how do I know which is Right View during meditation? If I get the thought that cushion time will have to end, is this a thought caused by restlessness or an insight on impermanence? Should I not act upon it?


Yours,
Pilot

Cloud

@Pilot, What changes your mind is insight. When thoughts arise in meditation, just note them and let them go; unless they happen to be very powerful and pull your attention, then focus on them as fully as possible and follow them to their conclusion. At least that's my advice. As far as how long to meditate, I couldn't say; I used to go about 1-2 hours per night when I was setting time aside just for that. If you've nothing more important to do, and it isn't doing you harm, you can meditate for quite a long time; just look at some Zen practitioners.

Recommend Anatta and Anicca as things to be constantly mindful of, to contemplate, to see in all phenomena. Also dukkha, in the way that there is nothing satisfactory or that can be grasped without leading to suffering. Impermanence is the way of things; train the mind to accept Anicca in all things including itself.

Pilot

@Cloud
Right on. So insights are thoughts that stick to you? If it makes sense you observe it to the fullest.

Makes sense. I 'theoretically' know what impermanence is, but I haven't actually 'applied' this truth in life. That's a whole 'nother topic.

How do you 'leave' the cushion Cloud?
Thank you.

Cloud

@Pilot, You leave the cushion by taking it with you. Why would sitting have any special significance? Cultivate mindfulness in all things and your life will be your practice; meditation will be part of everything you do. Each experience, each point of "contact" with a mind-object (be it from the senses or a thought itself) could bear the right conditions for the mind to learn, to see the truth directly that it wasn't paying attention to before.

Pilot

@Cloud

Excellent advice. The world is my cushion I guess

Ada_B

Just my experience (endorsed by my teacher) but if you want to find inner peace, look outwards - when you get up from your cushion see what you can do for others and forget about your own worries and your own ego.

Pilot

@Beta

Thank you. How can I help others if I can't help myself? That sounded a bit selfish. This may seem like a very scary question but I will ask anyway: what is the point of being compassionate and why should we do it? Is it purely to help others who are suffering? What do we get for being compassionate, ( not looking at it as a self-reward complex.) ?

genkaku

Why do I consider mindfulness temporary? Experience.
________________________________________________

Pilot -- This is excellent. Stick with experience and keep on practicing. "Mindfulness" is a nice word and even a nicer experience ... but stick with the experience and keep on practicing. A little at a time, what was narrow will become broad. Just keep up your good practice, whether it sucks or glows with bliss.

Cloud

@Pilot, Compassion is what exists when we are at peace, not struggling with ourselves or others. We know how we have suffered, how we can suffer, and that others are subject to the same causes and conditions; if it were you in pain, would you not want to be helped? If you were seeking truth, would you want someone who could guide you? We don't need a god/gods, philosophy, religion, government, law or anything to tell us how life is; life is a struggle. If we see others as no different than ourselves, we naturally want to help.

Sometimes we're in such a bad spot that we can't think of helping others until we take care of ourselves, and that's okay. We do what we have to. Either way, when we find peace we find it only natural to be helpful. Does that answer help?

Pilot

@Cloud

Thank you. Yes that kind of helps. I guess we are all in the same boat. I understand that we all suffer from the same problems essentially and that helping people is good and all but... how does Compassion lead to Nirvana, if I may ask so directly. How does helping others lead to enlightenment?

@genkakau
I will Thank you for replying.

Cloud

@Pilot, I never said that it did. It can definitely help (be a "skillful means" to enlightenment as Mahayana teachings put it), because in thinking of others you lessen your "self"-centered view. In giving/generosity to others, you also cultivate detachment in yourself (you're parting with what is "yours"). There are many examples, but I'm sure you see the trend; helping others shifts your mind's view from selfish to selfless.

So in part, compassion is simply the right thing to do, that which the enlightened mind sees as natural. Also in part it helps us detach from being "separate", from "self", and this is essential to understanding Anatta. How much we choose to help others depends upon us (and in part by our tradition; some traditions place higher emphasis on compassion)... but it definitely helps lessen self view if we understand it in this way.

Ada_B

@Beta

Thank you. How can I help others if I can't help myself? That sounded a bit selfish. This may seem like a very scary question but I will ask anyway: what is the point of being compassionate and why should we do it? Is it purely to help others who are suffering? What do we get for being compassionate, ( not looking at it as a self-reward complex.) ?

I was studying this very question in my sangha recently. It's about generosity and kindness, but that doesn't just mean doing stuff for people, or giving them stuff. You can also be generous in receiving. This is especially true if you are in poor mental or physical health and you need to accept help from others. If you accept help gratefully and happily, you can make someone's day. You are showing kindness to them by making it easy for them to show you compassion.

If you find that difficult to understand, just think of the last time you tried to help someone, how they reacted, and how that made you feel? Giving is a joy, and if we put aside our pride, so can receiving be.

Showing this kind of generosity and kindness helps us achieve enlightenment because in order to do it properly, you have to put ego aside. To really help someone, you have to think about their needs, not your own; to accept help generously, you have to think about their kindness towards you, not how embarrassing it may be to ask for or receive help. Again, you have to put ego aside.

It is ego, our delusion of a "self" that is a major component of the ignorance that prevents us from being enlightened. Everything we can do (meditation, mindfulness, loving kindness and generosity to others...) that weakens the ego, that turns attention away from this imagined "self", is a step towards Nirvana.

As for wanting to help yourself, you are betraying your monotheist roots! There is nothing wrong in wanting help if you have a genuine need. In fact, the desire to help yourself is a laudable one - it implies you take ownership of your own problems and aren't blaming others. OTOH, never let pride, ego, Self prevent you from asking for help if you genuinely need it. Everyone can show kindness and compassion (metta), whether they are in a position to give, or to receive. And don't forget - there is no distinction between "I" and "others", so when I say you should show compassion and kindness, that includes to yourself!

Pilot

@Cloud @Beta
That makes perfect sense. Being truly compassionate is a testament of having no ego. Provoking an even deeper discussion, I ask: what makes an action truly compassionate and altruistic? I'm guessing it is more of the intention of the action, but what drives that intention--in this case the intention to weaken the ego--? Do you see what I'm trying to get at? It sounds as if most of our actions are rooted in Self-based interests, in this case, weakening the ego for liberation through compassionate actions.

Thank you for your replies.

Cloud

@Pilot, True virtue and true compassion are when there's no thought of any gain whatsoever, not even the good feeling you get. These develop through our cultivation of a wholesome mind and our awakening. We first emulate the noble ones (i.e. the Buddha or our teachers), doing as they say because we're confident they know; then we become the noble ones (selfless beings) and know for ourselves. Have compassion for others because you can see yourself in their shoes and because it cultivates detachment from self and loving-kindness toward others. Do it because when your mind is calm, you simply know that this is true.

Ada_B

@Cloud @Beta
That makes perfect sense. Being truly compassionate is a testament of having no ego. Provoking an even deeper discussion, I ask: what makes an action truly compassionate and altruistic? I'm guessing it is more of the intention of the action, but what drives that intention--in this case the intention to weaken the ego--? Do you see what I'm trying to get at? It sounds as if most of our actions are rooted in Self-based interests, in this case, weakening the ego for liberation through compassionate actions.

Thank you for your replies.

Buddhism isn't particularly concerned with philosophical arguments of what is true altruism or not. In fact, as I understand it, the teachings quite clearly suggest that the expected outcome of a compassionate act is a good feeling - it is the natural karma of such acts.

Maybe when you start out, it is partly because it makes you feel good. What's so bad about feeling good? Especially when it's because of a virtuous act. But as you practice, it becomes less about you feeling good, and more about just acting as you are naturally inclined. Ego lessens. Which doesn't mean the good feelings decline - since there is no distinction between ourselves and others, doing genuine good to others or doing good to ourselves is much the same thing. I would suggest that the more we practice, the more this distinction fades and therefore the more fulfilling our acts of kindness become.

Ultimately, we hope that our virtue and compassion will become truly empty of ego, but in the meantime, desiring the cessation of ego is a virtuous desire, especially if our method of going about it involves expressing our true nature (ie metta). It's a first step in the journey - like a child learning to walk who has to hold on to the furniture. Eventually, he will let go and one day he will run. In the meantime, it is a good thing he's standing and holding on to the furniture.

NomaDBuddha

After meditation, I gain temporary mindfulness over the things I do in everyday life. Commuting to school, I see things I haven't seen before. It's like I'm a sponge that soaks everything in. Until, I realize that I can't hold on to this 'feeling' of inner bliss, and that this is all temporary until I achieve enlightenment.

Then I question myself, do I meditate to free myself from being sad? The bliss is definitely a plus, I think I may be looking at it as the only reason why I meditate. In a way, isn't meditation a way of aversion? I see myself being attached to the feel good add-ons of meditation and I just get the feeling of being down when I realize that this too shall pass.

Thoughts my fellow truth seekers?

Wow, same thing here ! Same experience !
The thing is, that I don't feel attached to the 'feel good add-ons of meditation'. They just are...and maybe aren't. Maybe the mind sees meditation as some sort of wonder-making 'therapy', but I prefer not to get stuck in that aspect.
I guess, meditation is a form of getting rid of inner suffering and torment (like in my case), so, if you want to meditate too free yourself from being sad...Go for it !

Floating_Abu

She said:

I always felt there was something else. Some other truth, or wait, maybe it is all the same. Another world, or wait maybe it is the other same. Insights. Arise. Of their own volition. Meditation, clues, hints. I know it is there. Compassion, dare I dare, Such a big word, such a small effort. How and whence do I make it real. i.e. Do I make me real. By being real you can finally be true fully.

Meditation, insights, on off now later.

Then she left again.