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Question about the four noble truths and buddhism in general
Hello, I'm new here (kind of just googled "buddhism forum" and came here 
) but I didn't know where else to go with my question.
I've read numerous books about all sorts of buddhism and I keep coming to the same question I keep posing myself. I'm sure others have posed this same question and this thread will not be a long one, but before going further into buddhism I would like to see this resolved.
If the goal is to achieve total selflessness because "self" is an imagined entity troubled by the suffering caused by desire, passion, pursuit of wealth and other things. Is this pursuit for selflessness not feeding the self and thus contradicting the whole goal? Because what drives a person to achieve selflessness other than to achieve enlightenment, and is achieving enlightenment not a goal of your inner self?
) but I didn't know where else to go with my question.I've read numerous books about all sorts of buddhism and I keep coming to the same question I keep posing myself. I'm sure others have posed this same question and this thread will not be a long one, but before going further into buddhism I would like to see this resolved.
If the goal is to achieve total selflessness because "self" is an imagined entity troubled by the suffering caused by desire, passion, pursuit of wealth and other things. Is this pursuit for selflessness not feeding the self and thus contradicting the whole goal? Because what drives a person to achieve selflessness other than to achieve enlightenment, and is achieving enlightenment not a goal of your inner self?
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Comments
Buddhism is about like martial arts -- using the strength of the other person's attack as a means of defeating your opponent. In the case of Buddhism, we use the only tools currently available -- the self -- as a means of assuring a peace that does not evaporate.
Anyone can talk about "selflessness" or "emptiness" or "enlightenment" or "compassion," but talking and actualizing are not always the same thing. Anyone can claim that "enlightenment" is the goal, but did you ever notice how often you or I or anyone else uses such a word without a second thought? If we knew what enlightenment was, how could it possibly be a goal? And if we don't know what it is, our words turn into gibberish ... how can we possibly have a goal without knowing what the goal is?
Anyway, in Buddhism we practice with the tools we have. Is it a contradiction to use the self to defeat or penetrate the self? The only way to know that is to practice. A lot of apparently savvy people say practice is worth the price of admission, but without practicing yourself, the matter remains intellectual and emotional cotton candy.
Best wishes in your efforts.
When you say that we use the self to defeat or penetrate the self, this is not a contradiction. But when you want to defeat or penetrate the self, this is a goal, is it not?
But when you set a goal is this not a reason for suffering?
If I understand correctly you say that the right path to end suffering is to suffer from the wish to achieve selflessness, so we use this suffering to end the suffering?
How do I know that this path will actually result in selflessness? Won't I just desire more and more for selflessness without ever achieving it? It is said that the path is more important than the goal, but if the path is filled with suffering to achieve the goal, this surely can't be the right path?
And how do I know that selflessness is something worth achieving since it is my self that wants to achieve it? Why would my self want to help me reach selflessness?
Initially, you don't. You say "Hmm, this Buddha guy seems pretty smart. I wonder if what he says is true? Hmm, let's practice what he says and find out." Furthermore, what makes you think you can't achieve it?
>but if the path is filled with suffering to achieve the goal, this surely can't be the right path?
Suffering is a result of ignorance, not a result of following the path. Until ignorance is ended, every path regardless of what it is, is inevitably filled with suffering because ignorance is still present. Traveling the path and having a goal to end suffering does not increase suffering or introduce any new suffering that is not there already. It simply makes you aware of the suffering that is already there. There is no such thing as a path that does not have suffering since traveling to the place where the path says to go is what puts an end to suffering. So there are really 2 choices one can make, suffer endlessly or travel the path to put an end to suffering. What other options are there?
It's not about achieving "selflessness," especially since "selflessness" has a very specific connotation to non-Buddhists. It's about realizing that the self is an illusion that the mind clings to for security, and this clinging causes suffering.
By walking the path, you will gain insight into this fact and your suffering will decrease.
So don't think about it as trying to become "selfless". That thinking itself reinforces the notion of self.
Think about it as gaining the realization that the idea of self is a crutch that causes much pain.
Finally, don't worry too much about the end of the path-- enlightenment. Unless you dedicate your life to Buddhism and live in a monastery, you won't reach enlightenment. However, you will reduce your level of suffering and become a happier person.
By the way, it is probably more useful to think of "selflessness" as "not-self" instead.
Here's a related podcast
http://www.zencast.org/zencast_777_anatta
In other words you don't have a 'false self' to get rid of. If its false you just need to see that.
I recommend reading the heart sutra. Google.
I (the mind) decides to let go of the heavy weight.
The mind releases or opens the hand & the heavy weight drops to the ground.
So how does dropping the heavy load increase the heaviness is the hand?
It does not.
Similarly, letting go of 'self thinking' does not feed 'the self' nor contradict the goal.
How can reducing something feed something?
The mind becomes "selfless". The mind chooses to stop thinking the thoughts "I", "me" & "mine".
The mind experiences bliss & liberation.
The "I" does not experience liberation. The "I" does not become selfless.
All the best
You've all helped me a lot with your input.
For example Zen Buddhism says there isn't any truth but experience, experience is the most important thing. But then buddhism also says that you have to look at things the way they really are, not how your self sees it influenced by your experiences.
To me this also seems as a contradiction, but this is probably because I'm looking at it in the wrong way?
Don't try not to think, or try to control your thinking, just observe it like clouds in the sky, while focussing gentle on your out-breaths. Meditation is a state of absolute relaxation, the only time we truly relax our minds and free them from all that thinking, thinking, thinking we do.
Secondly, start learning mindfulness, which means paying attention to the things you do in everyday life and to your thought processes. Don't give yourself a headache, just spend the odd minute, when you remember, considering what you are doing and what is happening. Pay attention to Now.
If your mind starts going over what happened in the past, especially if you are regretful or upset, remind yourself that the past is gone and that all you can change is the Now.
Likewise, if you start worrying about the future and getting stressed, remind yourself that no one knows the future. The only time you can know about is Now.
Now is very important, as it is the only time we can understand or act in.
Buddhist practice is fundamentally about learning to know yourself, and in doing so, learning how you create your own world through your perceptions. As you learn to let go and accept the world (and yourself) as it is, you begin to free yourself of the delusion that we call "reality" (actually samsara) and thus learn how to live without suffering (a little).
But you are a beginner so don't put yourself under too much pressure. Hopefully, as you practice you will get glimpses and that will spur you on.
As for fighting, you could find a more positive channel for that instinct in doing a martial art for sport. In addition, several martial arts are based in Buddhist principles (Buddhism is not generally pacifist, provided the fighting is the last-resort and not done out of anger or a desire for revenge).
Until my illness, I studied karate, which I really miss (I think I had rather an attachment to it
In karate you have to learn to focus all your energy in the punch or kick and not be distracted by emotions. "When you peal potatoes, peel potatoes" as the Zen saying goes, and in karate "When you punch the punch-bag, punch the punchbag". Don't waste your energy on other stuff.
In a match, if you allow your opponent to wind you up (which some people do on purpose because they find it funny), you start flailing around like a windmill and lose all your accuracy.
Anyway, this is just a suggestion. I found karate a really helpful and positive way to learn to control my aggressive instincts. Even though I can't physically do it anymore, the lessons have stayed with me.
Thrilled to hear you want to try out meditation and mindfulness. It will do you good whatever you decide.