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Modern tendency...
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
Has anyone noticed the relatively modern and recent tendency to be deliberately rude in public, to criticise people in a hostile manner, and to actively attempt to belittle and humiliate them?
There are certain programmes on television (and they seem to be on the increase in their variety of content and subject matter) in which members of the public are pitted against one another in whatever contest or competition you might like to suggest, the judges of which are hell-bent on tearing them to pieces!
Then there's 'The Weakest Link' - fronted in the UK by a woman called Anne Robinson, who, at every opportunity, seeks to criticise and poke fun at everyone in the contest.
There's a new up-and-coming programme that will focus on new ideas and inventions being put forward by their originators, who will attempt to sell their ideas to a panel of experts - and already in previews, it's evident that some people have been reduced to tears by these 'judges'....some of the comments defy belief!
I find this new fashionable tendency to treat people this way nothing short of appalling.
Whatever happened to respect and courtesy?
I remember one definition I heard, and have never forgotten:
"Courtesy (Noun):A form of polite behaviour, practised by civilised people when they can be bothered to find the time."
Has it got to the point where so many - TOO many - know what politeness and courtesy is - but laziness and the 'me first' desire simply overshadow everything convention dictates?
And what can we do about it?
There are certain programmes on television (and they seem to be on the increase in their variety of content and subject matter) in which members of the public are pitted against one another in whatever contest or competition you might like to suggest, the judges of which are hell-bent on tearing them to pieces!
Then there's 'The Weakest Link' - fronted in the UK by a woman called Anne Robinson, who, at every opportunity, seeks to criticise and poke fun at everyone in the contest.
There's a new up-and-coming programme that will focus on new ideas and inventions being put forward by their originators, who will attempt to sell their ideas to a panel of experts - and already in previews, it's evident that some people have been reduced to tears by these 'judges'....some of the comments defy belief!
I find this new fashionable tendency to treat people this way nothing short of appalling.
Whatever happened to respect and courtesy?
I remember one definition I heard, and have never forgotten:
"Courtesy (Noun):A form of polite behaviour, practised by civilised people when they can be bothered to find the time."
Has it got to the point where so many - TOO many - know what politeness and courtesy is - but laziness and the 'me first' desire simply overshadow everything convention dictates?
And what can we do about it?
0
Comments
At least that appears to be the Blair government's idea. along with ASBOs.
It's very tongue in cheek but it's manifesto (or "call to charms") is to try and promote civility amongst the uncouth masses via smart clothing and manners.
As I said, it's not meant to be taken entirely seriously, one article was entitled "DIY (Do It Yousef) - a guide to getting your Turkish manservant to do jobs round the house" !
They also have a yearly march across London where they all wear their finest tweeds, doff their hats at young ladies and generally act in a chapish manner.
That the magazine exists in the first place does seem to point to the fact that society, at least in the UK, has made a dramatic shift away from when manners and courtesy were perceived to be the norm. I mean, I'm only 35 but I remember treating my elders with respect and other such behaviour which now seems entirely lacking in society today.
Oh my god, I've turned into my father !!!!!!!
While it is easy - and extraordinarily frustrating! - to get into an argument with him, to say that he is set in his ways, and immoveable is pretty much an understatement.
But in some ways, he has a point.....
He deplores the burgeoning yob culture. He refers to television as 'the idiot's lantern' and cannot stand the way people speak, dress and behave. During a dinner party he and my mother held, he at once complimented the ladies and alienated the men in one stroke, by compalining that 'gentlemen no longer dress for dinner.' He looked around the table and remarked on how lovely every single lady looked, but how shabby and dishevelled their male companions were in comparison.
And at the risk of also 'sounding like my father!' he was absolutely right.
There was no sense of pride, elegance or manners. Frankly, according to him, for a gentleman to permit his wife/girlfriend/partner to dress elegantly, without making an equal effort himself, is an insult to her.
Now many may protest, and say that times have changed, dress codes are different, nobody dresses for dinner any more....
But it may well be the case that in becoming so lax about our general sense of social behaviour, we have permitted other values to slip too.
To our detriment and to our cost.
We try to theach children how to say please and thank you. youngAmerican gentlemen used to call their fathers 'Sir'. Do they still do that?
While I abhor the era when parents ruled with a rod of iron, and woe betide any child who answered back, I must sympathise with those who mourn the loss of the age of elegznce, social graces and Courtesy.
And if that makes me a fuddy-duddy, then so be it.
But I would venture to propose that in no small way, one could weave in the Eightfold path, and it would not fit uncomfortably.... quite the opposite.
In fact, one lesson I read, from a Buddhist teacher to his pupils states, quite simply,
"Learn from All. Judge no-one. be kind.And say 'Thank you'. "
Buddhist ettiquette in a Modern World.....
I live just down the valleys from Prinknash. It was the first monastery in which I ever stayed, back in 1960, when they were still in "St Peter's Grange". The community have moved back there again, out of that hideous new building.
It may amuse you to know (if you don't already) that the first official meeting between Christians and Druids took place at Prinknash about 10 years ago. It was organised by Fr Tom Curtis-Hayward, my anam cara, whose life was a wonderful example of genuine ecumenism. He was a friend of Dom Bede Griffiths and of the Dalai Lama's brother, and his funeral was attended by bishops and tramps, hugger mugger in the church.
I urge anyone who delights in burning traditional, granular incense to purchase some from this abbey. if I'm not incorrect, they are the only manufacturers in the UK of this product, and they also supply small charcoal tablets for burning. They will post overseas.
Well worth the effort. It's a cause well worth supporting......
http://www.prinknashabbeyincense.com/
Ok, meanwhile, back at the ranch.....
Carrying on "off topic" (sorry!), I make my own granular incense. You can get all the core ingredients (frankincense, myrrh gum, various dried flowers, etc.) from most herbal shops and it's interesting experimenting with different blends. Adding crushed amber to the mix is particularly nice.
Simon, do you know if it's true that Prinknash are going to sell off the new building? Reading Priory hold yearly retreats at Prinknash and they are concerned that if the new building goes that there will be no more room for these.
No news about the Abbey, yet, but if the Priory are worried, they could do worse than approach the sisters at Nympsfield: the convent is wonderful for retreats.
Hi Federica!
How are you?
Yes, I have noticed the appalling trend in rudeness; it would seem that having good manners and practicing the Golden Rule seem to be in very short supply. :sadc: I have noticed it especially among the younger generation. However, I realize that not all of the younger generation practices being rude. There are some members of the younger generation that have excellent manners and I appreciate the fact that they have been shown to do so by someone. But, by and large, I have noticed that when I practice being polite or just simply ask a question to someone younger than me, I usually get that sullen, hateful, I-am-mad-at-the-world-and-I don't-give-a-crap-what-you-think-and-I-am-gonna-take-it-out-on-you attitude. It really irritates me, too!:banghead:
As for watching shows that seek to humiliate or debase others, well, I simply won't watch such shows. I figure that I am supporting the humilation and/or rude treatment of others by watching such drivel and I simply won't do it.
Adiana:thumbsup: :usflag:
naturally, being the curious, gregarious type, I asked her what it meant. She smiled and replied 'Practise Random Acts of Kindness.' She'd put it on with no particular thought of doing so that morning, but whenever she was reminded she was wearing it, she tried to find something nice to do for someone else....
And I got to thinking how simple this is....
I once had an elderly lady in the shopping queue behind me one day.... and she was quite obviously adding up her pennies to see whether she could actually afford to buy all that she had on the conveyoor belt, inf front of her.... and get this: (I'll never forget it) 1 pack of six slices of lean ham. 1 piece of red Leicester cheese. I small pack of unsalted butter. 1 pint of milk. 1 chocolate eclair. Total:£3.87. And she didn't know if she could afford it all....
I quietly asked the cashier to include her items with mine....
suffice to say, she got her groceries, and went home with her pension still intact, in her purse.
This happened a long time ago. But to this day, I shall never forget the look on her face.
And I really am not saying this to make myself seem big, or grandiose... it was just such a joy to do it.
If we could all just PRAK, once a day - nothing big, just to put a smile on someone else's face..... wouldn't the world be a nicer place for it....?
"Has it got to the point where so many - TOO many - know what politeness and courtesy is - but laziness and the 'me first' desire simply overshadow everything convention dictates?"
Greed, hatred, and delusion have always been a part of human existence.
"And what can we do about it?"
We can help teach people how to remove their greed, hatred, and delusion.
Jason
But in the day-to-day living, in the quotidian connection with others.... surely demonstrating by example, is a more immediate concern, with the potential of a greater more meaningful impact?
The moment is always right for there is no other moment than the present. Planning for the future can sometimes be futile, because when the future comes it will always be different than what you expected, if even by just a little. If you can teach by example, then teach by example. If you can teach with Suttas, then teach with Suttas. If you can teach using stories and similies, then teach using stories and similes. If you can teach by utilizing all three, then teach by utilizing all three. If you can't teach at all, then do not teach at all. Dhamma is only as easy or complicated as we make it out to be.
Jason
You, who are on the road,
Must have a code that you can live by.
And so, become yourself,
Because the past is just a good bye.
Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.
Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.
And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by.
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.
Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.
Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.......
gassho
-fa dao-
Your message about the rudeness of some brought to my mind the movie As Good As It Gets. Jack Nicholson the king of rude did and excellent job. He played an excessive compulsive and Carol the waitress was an embittered single Mom with a sick son. Their rudeness toward one another dragged on through the movie but as most American movies end, they kissed and made up. So maybe there is in fantasy some happy medium for nasty people. If we ignore them, they just continue their obnoxious behavior but if we smother them with nasty kindness, they begin to question their actions.
And that's my point....
In Italy, a movement for 'Slow Food' has sprung up, celebrating the luxury of taking three hours for a meal and delighting in waiting 20 minutes for the next course, because it's being prepared freshly and especially for you.... couldn't we start a movement encoraging the return of good old fashioned Courtesy, and Manners? Couldn't we actually try to not only do this ourselves, but gently encourage others to do the same?
Incidentally - and slightly off-topic - restaurants in London are having to advise customers meals will take some time, due to the care taken in preparing each dish from fresh, and individually, because clients were complaining of having to wait more than five minutes for their next course.....!
Life may be hectic and frenetic - but don't rush a meal if you've booked the restaurant!
Mind you, they are also asking clients to not linger during busy periods, because other booked clients are waiting for their seats....! Life is just too fast!!
many thanks.
Federica-
My respects to your father.:cool:
gassho
-fa dao-
I'll be sure to pass them on....
NOOOOO.
:doh:
Despite the general stereotype, some of my classmates are downright spiteful. Even some of my TEACHERS are mean to each other, which is deplorable, really. (And no, I'm not saying this as a bitter student.)
Thanks for recognizing that at least a few young'uns make an effort
I read something on the Internets once that I really love and have put into regular practice:
When you are out motoring, make a game out of doing nice things for other drivers. Give yourself points for letting people in, driving considerately, etc. Not only does this completely defuse any sense of competition, but what used to be stressful becomes really pleasurable.
It is amazing how small simple changes of approach like this can really alter the course of one's day.
Cheers,
Namgyal
:wavey:
Thanks, Thubten Namgyal!
I get all kinds of strange looks and comments for dressing nicely on what I think are fairly formal occasions. When I showed up to a Christmas dinner at my relatives' with nice pants and a dress shirt, I got some laughs. And when addressing teachers and other adults at school, I always use 'sir' or 'ma'm.' That's how I was raised to talk to adults. But then I have teachers who scoff at me when I do this and insist on being addressed by their first names. Since I don't like doing that, I end up very rarely addressing them directly.
I'm a lot like my father in that when I see how a lot of kids my age dress, I just shake my head. And they wonder why they can't get a job? They have no manners, they dress like gangsters, and they just generally look and behave thuggishly. A little pride is in order.
This from the guy with the Yippie Kay Yay Mother F@!#$ avatar?
A certain intolerance of intolerance and intolerance of harm done to the innocent is rather attractive in a young man! Some people with whom I often disagree nonetheless make this a better world. Rock On!
Well then you're missing something here.....
That's kind of presumptuous....How would you know....? In every case?
The moment we start to make judgments about what we will and will not tolerate, we lower our standard of behaviour and permit our ego to judge, criticise and condemn.
Whilst the act may be unacceptable, the person themselves has to be viewed with compassion and acceptance.
Surely, the punishment should befall the criminal, and they should know the full weight of the law is against them. But this is against their actions, not their person.....
But every human being deserves resopect and courtesy. If we pwrmit our own attitudes to be anything less than what the Buddha taught - how are we to genuinely look the world in the eye?
Disagreeing with someone is stretching the connection to murderers and thugs to snapping point, I think.....:D
Anecdote for you.
I recently received an obscene amount of vouchers for a Virgin megastore-type shop in France... 400 euros in all, it felt weird. It took me three shopping trips to spend them all that's how much it was.
What happens when you pay in vouchers? Well there's no change is there so you either add money to it or you lose out. Mine were in denominations of 25 euros so I decided, rather than buy stuff I didn't need/ want, I'd pass the remaining amounts (equivalent to about 7 pounds each time) to the next person in the queue. It turned out to be a true sociological experiment:
Scenario 1 - I get out vouchers, probably look a bit flash but discreetly count out what's needed.
Woman in queue: "Well nice to see SOME people have money in a recession" (cue huffing, puffing and eyes-to-the-ceiling in fromt of everyone. Had I not been working on compassion I would have happily decked her.
But...I promply take the huffy woman's book off her and ask the cashier to use remaining amount to pay for her purchase
Woman in queue: Look of total disbelief like noone did anything good for her in years. Turns to rest of queue: "Well at least SOME people are still kind and considerate in this day and age"
She looked at me like a sort of miracle had happened it was the weirdest thing. I wanted to hug her. She did a full 360 in 2 minutes!
Scenario 2 - Me at till, count out vouchers.. Cashier announces I will be 7 odd euros in credit for which he cannot reimburse me.. blah
I turn to woman behind me and offer to credit her shopping bill with the 7 euros
Woman: Searching around in purse, "Here's the 7 euros"
Me: No, please don't worry, the vouchers were a gift to me, so I'd rather not take your money, it's fine
Woman: Mutters to lady behind her how weird I am, pays and walks past me with eyes to the floor, shaking her head. Not a word said.
Morality: She would have payed me but couldn't just thank me for a 'gift'
Scenario 3 - Repeat initial bit as per other scenarios.. Vouchers come out, money left over, blah
I offer to add the remainder to the young lad in queue behind me
(I see papers in his hand and think cripes (or similar) I've just offered it to a delivery man in error)... No turns out he is bona-fide customer paying for electrical goods.
Long complicated sale, young man giggles shyly into his cagoule while I look at the floor. I end up following him all over store picking up various items from distribution points, listening to the finer points of configuering his new Nokia... Long discussion as to which anti-virus to choose for his new laptop, blah. (All of this because young lad ended up with receipt (classed as same purchase) and I cannot at this point leave the store without receipt in case alarm goes off, I have no proof of purchase and end up in the clink.
Nice.
After HALF AN HOUR not that I WAS COUNTING, we walk out of store, all my goodwill seeping from my body and the lad walks out of the store with a nod in my direction and not so much as a handshake. Just giggling to himself nervously.
Morality: People are very destabilised by kindness and I will now go back to being a grumpy old sod.
No, probably won't but it's the last time I play at Mary Poppins at any rate
I happen to admire the character Bruce Willis often portrays. He beats up bad guys and I like that. I don't see how my avatar is relevant to the conversation. I may very well have had the Duke of Wellington on there, another personal hero of mine for his role in the Peninsular War. Would you have scoffed the same because he treated his wife terribly throughout his marriage?
When we make judgments against people, that just means we have ideas on what is right and wrong.
For instance, I would hope that you could make the judgment in saying that murder and rape is bad, and that in turn, those who commit those crimes are bad.
I don't see how. I think rapists and murderers are bad people. If that makes me narrow-minded, then so be it.
My first reaction when I hear of crimes is "why?" "Why did they do that?" "How did they learn that behaviour, why did they resort to it?"
We are all products of our society, surely. Our society is then only ever as good as the 'worst' behaviour that occurs within it.
That's how I tend to see it. This is in no way me condoning things however and it's easy for me to feel compassionate in a hypothetical sense I guess.
But typing this I'm wondering how much can be attributed to genes... Hmmm...
Keep on hoping, but it's a no-hoper.
What you say is understandable, and the basic premise by which most people judge. But it's inaccurate.
if you look at the figure of Justice, on the top of the Old Bailey, she is blind, and she is holding aloft a pair of scales in one hand, and a sword in the other.
The scales denote impartiality. Everyone has a right to unbiased and equal justice. The sword denotes that nobody is above the Law, and harkens back to when Solomon decided to cut a baby in two, to settle the quarrel between two women as to the motherhood of that child.
Many thought Justice is blindfolded, but she isn't. She is blind. Blind to prejudice, and blind to a man's character, taking only actions and circumstances as mootable points.
(There is a similar statue of 'Justicia' in Frankfurt.)
The moment you begin to label a person, in their entirety, as 'bad' or 'evil', based upon manifested actions, you are straying dangerously into the realms of wrong perception and jaded views......
Palzang
Fantastic post, Fede, in my humble opinion. I couldn't agree with you more and I could never have said it better.
(By the way, thank you (!!!!) for being in the minority when it comes to
understanding the true meaning of the word 'moot' and using it so beautifully and appropriately.)
(Have I told you lately that I love you?
(By the way, have I told you lately that I love you?:D)
On natural law? Decency? How can a society possibly hope to function properly if it doesn't deem certain actions as good or bad. If only for the sake of order, we have to be able to say as a collective that murder and rape are not good things. They are bad. If that's absolutism, then so be it.
How? Was Hitler bad? Was Stalin bad? Mao? I think it's only reasonable to say that when a person murder X-million numbers of people, then we just have to grit our teeth and have the guts to say that they are bad.
So one can be wrong, but never bad? I believe there are truly some people who are rotten and bad to the core. Evil incarnate. Calling them what they are is the first step in confronting them.
Certainly I have done bad things in the past, and yes, I fully acknowledge that I was a bad person when I committed them. But they are balanced out by the fact that I generally do not commit bad acts, and tend towards doing good things more often than not. Murder and rape are slightly more heinous than the petty things I've done, and they are much harder to balance out.
First of all, Natural law deems that we should be able to kill (it's a mammalian instinct) and not be monogamous (not a 'natural' mammalian trait).
The 'Natural Law' you are talking about is anything but. It is based on biblical regulations, formulated by societies and cultures to create the backbone of society.
There's the key, by the way. You've just said it yourself:
'Actions', yes, of course. People? All in your head.
Was Hitler ever good? Stalin? Mao? I'd be willing to bet they were.
Whilst a person is capable of doing both good AND bad, you cannot be absolutist, and say they are one thing or another.
Incidentally, Mother Teresa thought nothing of setting traps for rats, and killing flies and mosquitoes.
Does that make her bad?
Just as one could be right but never good....?! Look at your arguments, KoB... they're full of holes, sweetheart!
Confrontation is what starts wars. Is this a good mindset? Surely, there are better ways?
The Dalai Lama is completely against any form of violence or retaliation against China. His stance may seem ineffective, but drops of water will pierce a stone......
Certainly I have done bad things in the past, and yes, I fully acknowledge No, you were a person who did bad things. Doing bad things doesn't make you a bad person.
Not so.
No, but go ahead!
Palzang
What makes you think I was talking of just this life? We have all lived countless lives, and if you could see past just this little sliver of time that you currently occupy, you would see that you, like all beings, have committed heinous crimes much, much worse than anything you may read in the newspaper. If you can understand that, then who is there to blame and point fingers at? As usual, you miss the point.
Palzang
That's well and good as far as I'm concerned. Modern society has indeed been shaped by Judeo-Christian values (which I believe is where the term 'natural law' comes from). I'm very utilitarian about this though. If believing in Jesus or a turtle for that matter makes people behave morally, then I have nothing against it.
So if someone holds a door for you, can you legitimately say, "You are very kind." How could you? Surely, they are acting kind, but a kind person? Nonsense. They aren't kind all the time. I'm sure they are capable of being quite unkind to people. So who are you to call them kind? That would be some dangerous absolutist thinking.
Oh, I'm sure they were just dandy to certain people. Hitler may well have been a decent husband for the short time he was married. But none of this negates the fact that collectively, they were all responsible for the deaths of nearly 100 million people. Ask any one of their nameless victims who never got justice whether they think their torturers and murderers were "all bad."
Well confrontation just ended the pirate hostage situation the other day. The President, who I praise highly for this action at least, authorized killing the pirates holding that American captain hostage. I think they killed all but one. Were there better ways? I can't think of any personally other than rolling over and paying a ransom.
I think you underestimate just how evil people can behave. People are not basically good. They are capable of the most cruel and appalling things, and those that do those things need to be opposed. If that means war, then it's regrettable but often necessary. How does one peacefully oppose monsters like Hitler or Al-Qaeda? Non-violence worked well enough against British imperialists, who could be embarrassed by hunger strikes and a PR campaign, but the real hard-core criminals need other persuasion.
Okay!
I love, love, love you!
Love,
Boo
Actually, I have. I lived next door to a Jewish lady (Her name was Helga Zeinweiss, so she is far from nameless) who survived the holocaust, and she is of the same opinion as I.
I'd rather pay a ransom any day than have the murder of somebody on my hands. I don't give twoo hoots about money. But I do give more thsn a few for a human being.
You talk as if this kind of behaviour is current and recent... people have been behaving like this since man knew how to rule.... and I still maintain, until my dying breath, that there are always, but always, better resorts to dealing with people than with violence.
I think you underestimate how good people can be, because they earn fewer column inches.
There are more good people on this planet, than bad.
It's just that the bad are louder.
Some of them, the ones I knew at first, had escaped the worst by coming to London before being sent to the camps. Later I met some who had actually experienced the horrors.
Some of these survivors - and they struck me as the happiest ones - had held on to a belief in basic goodness in the universe in general and humanity in particular. This is the lesson I try to learn day by day, particularly when I find myself in a criticising frame of mind.