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Intoxicants

WashuWashu
edited January 2011 in Buddhism Basics
Hello. I'm not sure where to begin so I'll try my best. I've been using drugs, nothing hard such as cocaine, heroin and so forth. I do primarily dissociative narcotics that alter the state of mind. In essence, it separates the mind from the body. I don't try to hide my intentions for I am addicted. However, during my "come up" last night, I was listening to Japanese Buddhists chants on youtube and it was the most peaceful and mind-relaxing thing I've ever heard. Up til' now I've always been an atheist. I was raised a Catholic but I quickly moved away from it.

My point being is, I've read numerous articles and discussions online (including some on here) and I am mixed up. I don't consider myself a buddhist merely for the fact that I can't follow the fifth precept along with the second noble truth. My wants override my happiness. Could I break my addiction? Sure. Do I want to? Not really. I find a different version of myself. I'm not violent, more of an emotionless state. My thoughts no longer cloud my judgment, or impairs my life. I can think clearly and better yet, be free.

Given nothing is black and white, I assume Buddha meant all intoxicants are not to be used and I am ok with such demand. I am merely asking if my drug grants me a mediative state, what does that mean? Better yet, what can I do to be true to myself and Buddha to be complete, if you will.

Comments

  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    edited January 2011
    you are confusing a meditative state, with a drugged state, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, if you want to understand this religion you need a clear drug free mind.....
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    you are confusing a meditative state, with a drugged state, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, if you want to undestand this religion you need a clear drug free mind.....
    I second that.
    I have full hand experience as well.
    I thought otherwise, but learned that hard way.
    For me it was psychedelic drugs.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    When I hear people say they don't want to break their addiction, I have to ask why. Presumably you weren't born addicted to whatever it is you abuse. So what makes you think that continuing to abuse a chemical substance voluntarily (you say you don't have the desire to break it) is a viable long term thing? Do you want to live a long life, or are you bent on self-destruction? If the latter, why not do it now rather than stretching it out? If you're not bent on self-destruction, take a look at how many 90 year old drug addicts you see (answer: none). That's physical side.

    On the spiritual/emotional side, what is it about being addicted that makes you feel you want to continue with it? Wouldn't it be better to be able to achieve what you want to achieve all on your own, without having to ingest who knows what, with all the side effects that has on your body and your mind? I'd think that if you were interested in spiritual growth (which you obviously are, otherwise why are you reading this?), the prospect of being able to achieve something through your actions alone would be something you'd jump on with vigor.

    As a nurse, I'll tell you that no matter what *anybody* tells you, a dissociative agent *will* (not might) have long term effects on both your brain and your other organ systems, none of them good. The human body is not designed to deal with such chemicals over the long term. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

    You've taken a huge first step by reading this and posting what you did. Why not take the next steps and see where it leads? You can always go back to the drugs if you want to.

    Peace
  • WashuWashu
    To answer your first question as to why I don't want to break my addiction at the moment, I eventually do. This is for mere fun, it's altering my conscious besides the everyday routine which is interesting to me. How long do I plan to use this? Not long at all, in fact, you're only to take this once a month to avoid health problems which I follow. Once I hit the top amount, I'll stop. I'm a perfectionist and that's where I can stop. As for alcohol and marijuana, I do those socially. Other than that, I don't do it.

    My spiritual and emotional reason doing it is really to escape reality. Escape thoughts, and "be someone else". Like I said, I don't plan on doing it forever. I'm still living with people I don't enjoy anymore. I love them but they're holding me down, emotionally and mentally. I do believe once I get my own apartment of some sort, I can then focus on Buddhism and my spirit. For now, I will still abstain to Buddhism though I can't dedicate myself fully until I've quit which will be in the near future.

    I appreciate everyone's responses so far. It's not often you find people willing to help and guide you to a better life. Though, I must ask, what would you say to socially drinking and marijuana? I don't mean so much so as you're outside yelling at cars as they drive-by but enough just to get buzzed. I don't see the harm in that but if I must surrender it, I shall.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    buzzed=intoxicated end of story
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    Nothing wrong with marijuana...but people here won't agree with that lol
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    "Escape reality" - where do you go when you "escape" from "reality"? The only place there is is right here, and the only time is right now. There is nothing to escape from, and no place to escape to. This is it I'm afraid :)
  • WashuWashu
    "Escape reality" - where do you go when you "escape" from "reality"? The only place there is is right here, and the only time is right now. There is nothing to escape from, and no place to escape to. This is it I'm afraid :)
    Dulling the emotions and placing oneself in a better state. Still, it's irrelevant at this point.
  • NcryptxNcryptx
    Addictions are bad for health - we all know that. However please let's keep Buddhist doctrine separate from both social and medical issues. All we can say in this case is that in the conventional sense, there is suffering, that suffering has a cause and that it can cease or at least be reduced if the Noble Eightfold Path is followed.
  • havamarhavamar
    Hi Washu! Much peace and love to you...

    "Given nothing is black and white, I assume Buddha meant all intoxicants are not to be used and I am ok with such demand. I am merely asking if my drug grants me a mediative state, what does that mean? Better yet, what can I do to be true to myself and Buddha to be complete, if you will. "

    1. 'Buddha' didn't know much about drugs - MAYBE alcohol, opium and cannabis - but im not sure he would have had much experience with them
    2. 'Drugs' have a wide variety of effects, definately not all 'mind-dulling'
    3. Meditate while on drugs... lo and behold... you are meditating! (on drugs)
    4. 'Drugs' can have SEVERELY DETRIMENTAL effects on your body and brain, but so can a car crash, so weigh up the risks (and research research research..)
    5. 'DrUgZ' can be addictive, but not so much as water, food and oxygen
    6. You are the universe experiencing itself. Think about it. You ARE drugs.
    7. 'Drugs' will alter your 'normal' perception of 'reality'... obvious, but thats all the effects boil down to. Who is to say your normal perception is correct? Buddhism actually seems to imply the opposite. :)

    Personally, I gave up caffeine, cigarettes, cannabis and alcohol... after an 'enlightening' experience on LSD. Over 6 months going strong :D

    Sorry about all the quotation marks. And love, peace and understanding to all my brothers and sisters who are on the great staircase of buddhism... you should see the view from the top! (and all the staircases...)

    Seriously though, would you go to a Catholic forum and ask if its ok to go to church on crack?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    "Getting buzzed" equals indulging in sensual pleasures. Real freedom means not only to be free of annoying thoughts, etc. but also free of the need to experience sensual pleasures and to be perfectly ok with things just the way they are, regardless of what that may be. If you are really ok with the way things are, then there is no need to go out an seek a different or better feeling. If you are really and actually free, then there is no need to place yourself in a "better state" and drink or smoke weed. There is no such thing as a better state than the current one.
  • havamarhavamar
    "There is no such thing as a better state than the current one"

    Then why do you need Buddhism?
  • WashuWashu
    Good point. I could easily practice fully and use drugs but I don't want to per se. I believe (and some of you may agree) that the purpose of being a Buddhist is rid of oneself from all the tyranny that is around us but being aware of it and knowing how to deal with it. Drugs will alter that which I respect. Never the less, it's very odd to me. Being Catholic, your true goal was to be, one day in Heaven. If you sinned, you could repent. However, this is almost the complete opposite. The goal is to achieve understanding and happiness in this life, if you go outside a precept or truth, you couldn't be eternally happy. However, Buddha wanted us to test his teachings for ourselves instead of taking his universal truth for it, so I am going to do so.

    If it doesn't work (using narcotics and being happy with practicing Buddhism) then I will recant what I said, never the less, I will be quitting soon whether it works or not. Thank you all for your inputs, it's really given me insight.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Nothing wrong with marijuana...but people here won't agree with that lol
    Moderation....
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    "There is no such thing as a better state than the current one"

    Then why do you need Buddhism?
    To realize that this is actually true and to stop falsely believing that it isn't.
  • DeformedDeformed Veteran
    Could I break my addiction? Sure. Do I want to? Not really.
    From my perspective, this part is glaring at me. For many, things have to get bad enough to quit.

  • havamarhavamar
    edited February 2011
    "There is no such thing as a better state than the current one"

    Then why do you need Buddhism?
    To realize that this is actually true and to stop falsely believing that it isn't.
    I realized this without buddhism.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited February 2011
    "There is no such thing as a better state than the current one"

    Then why do you need Buddhism?
    To realize that this is actually true and to stop falsely believing that it isn't.
    I realized this without buddhism.
    So you are ready to die today and that would be ok with you? You would be ok if you got terminal cancer and were in great physical pain? That is good! :) It's easy to say that but when it actually happens most people change their tune.

  • havamarhavamar
    I experience great physical pain every day. Death will be a relief. But, that being said, I am no more ready to die than I was to be born. I am alive right now, and loving it. :D
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    If you truly understood you wouldn't care about proving to yourself that you understand. Because there's no way to misunderstand it, if you truly understand it. It's impossible. Once you "understand," that's it. Even if you choose to go back to delusion.
  • havamarhavamar
    Well put.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited February 2011
    I experience great physical pain every day. Death will be a relief. But, that being said, I am no more ready to die than I was to be born. I am alive right now, and loving it. :D
    Relief from what? How can there be relief from something is everything is already perfect? If everything is already perfect, then the whole concept of relief does not even come into the picture.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited February 2011
    I experience great physical pain every day. Death will be a relief. But, that being said, I am no more ready to die than I was to be born. I am alive right now, and loving it. :D
    Relief from what? How can there be relief from something is everything is already perfect?
    Just because ultimately it's perfect doesn't mean it feels perfect. We're living in the conventional world.

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited February 2011
    I experience great physical pain every day. Death will be a relief. But, that being said, I am no more ready to die than I was to be born. I am alive right now, and loving it. :D
    Relief from what? How can there be relief from something is everything is already perfect?
    Just because ultimately it's perfect doesn't mean it feels perfect. We're living in the conventional world.

    If one does not feel perfect, then one has yet to realize that there is no "better state", regardless of what it is. If one has realized this, then any state feels perfect. Therefore, everything always feels perfect and can't be otherwise.

  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited February 2011
    I experience great physical pain every day. Death will be a relief. But, that being said, I am no more ready to die than I was to be born. I am alive right now, and loving it. :D
    Relief from what? How can there be relief from something is everything is already perfect?
    Just because ultimately it's perfect doesn't mean it feels perfect. We're living in the conventional world.

    If one does not feel perfect, then one has yet to realize that there is no "better state".

    You deny the existence of samsara and the conventional world. Just like "normal" people deny the existence of the ultimate. The funny thing is, the conventional is more obvious. If you want the ultimate, you cannot deny anything. You embody both ultimate and conventional truth.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited February 2011
    I experience great physical pain every day. Death will be a relief. But, that being said, I am no more ready to die than I was to be born. I am alive right now, and loving it. :D
    Relief from what? How can there be relief from something is everything is already perfect?
    Just because ultimately it's perfect doesn't mean it feels perfect. We're living in the conventional world.

    If one does not feel perfect, then one has yet to realize that there is no "better state".

    You deny the existence of samsara and the conventional world. Just like "normal" people deny the existence of the ultimate. The funny thing is, the conventional is more obvious. If you want the ultimate, you cannot deny anything. You embody both ultimate and conventional truth.
    I do not deny samsara. What I'm saying is that if one ever feels that things are not perfect, that alone proves that one is still trapped in samsarsa and has yet to realize that there is no better state than the current one.

  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    Things ARE perfect. That doesn't mean they always feel or appear perfect. We know that's true because samsara exists.
  • havamarhavamar
    I experience great physical pain every day. Death will be a relief. But, that being said, I am no more ready to die than I was to be born. I am alive right now, and loving it. :D
    Relief from what? How can there be relief from something is everything is already perfect? If everything is already perfect, then the whole concept of relief does not even come into the picture.
    :)

    I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. Pain just is what it is. This life is also just is what it is. I love life, the joy and the pain. Everything is in a perfect state of balance.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited February 2011
    I don't love the pain. I accept it when it arises, but i'd prefer more happy things. I don't wanna forget about the ego. Cuz the ego is real. I want to accept everything.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Things ARE perfect. That doesn't mean they always feel perfect
    They DO feel that way if one has actually realized that!



    I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. Pain just is what it is. This life is also just is what it is. I love life, the joy and the pain. Everything is in a perfect state of balance.
    I was trying to say that IF there already is a perfect balance, then death would not be a relief because there is nothing to be relieved from. :)

  • mugzymugzy Veteran
    I do primarily dissociative narcotics that alter the state of mind. In essence, it separates the mind from the body.
    I don't believe that it "separates" the mind from the body, it simply changes the way the brain processes information. (I was recently reading a very interesting article on the subject of DMT, entitled The Case Against DMT Elves.) You may be in an altered state, but it is a synthetic way of changing the way you think, dependent on outside stimulation - narcotics.
    My thoughts no longer cloud my judgment, or impairs my life. I can think clearly and better yet, be free.
    Nobody here can say for sure as we cannot see the workings of your mind, but based on what you've said it doesn't sound like you are thinking any clearer or better than when you're not taking dissociatives.

    You're not truly free if you're chained to your addiction, a point you admit yourself.
    I am merely asking if my drug grants me a mediative state, what does that mean? Better yet, what can I do to be true to myself and Buddha to be complete, if you will.
    I can only echo what others have said when I tell you that I don't think you are in a meditative state. You are simply under the influence of powerful intoxicants, the kind I believe the Buddha was specifically referring to, the types of substances that hinder spiritual progress and meditative concentration. I do not judge you, I am only trying to give you my honest feedback.

    I can't tell you how to be true to yourself, that's something that you need to find out for yourself. However I strongly urge you to discontinue your use of dissociatives, not based in Buddhism, but stemming from my concern for to the damage that can be done to your brain. I have personally witnessed the effects of long-term abuse of various narcotics by friends and none of them ever thought there would be any serious consequences of their use. Even casual huffing of nitrous oxide (producing a type of dissociated state) can have severe lasting health problems.

    If you truly want to be free from disturbing thoughts and emotions, there are many ways of reaching this goal without drugs. You don't have to be a slave to your addiction. It is possible to quiet the flow of thoughts and clear your mind, but it takes dedication and practice. It won't happen instantly, but if you truly want to be free, there are ways you can find freedom and happiness.

    We are all here to help and support each other so I hope you don't get offended by what you read here. It is my hope that this thread gives you some insight and helps you on your journey.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited February 2011
    It can only feel that way if samsara doesn't exist. I choose to embrace both. Therefore pain is pain. Pleasure is pleasure.




  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    It can only feel that way if samsara doesn't exist. I choose to embrace both. Therefore pain is pain. Pleasure is pleasure.




    Yes, both of which would feel perfect because there would be no need to feel something else.

  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited February 2011
    Ok. Well I WANT to feel something else when i'm in pain. If nirvana means losing that, then I reject all pursuit of nirvana. I like where i'm at right now.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Ok. Well I WANT to feel something else when i'm in pain. If nirvana means losing that, then I reject all pursuit of nirvana. I like where i'm at right now.
    "No one understands that this wanting is the source of suffering" ~Hui Neng

  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    I <3 suffering
  • havamarhavamar

    I was trying to say that IF there already is a perfect balance, then death would not be a relief because there is nothing to be relieved from. :)
    There is a perfect balance. Pain is a part of that balance. It is an evolved sensory feedback system to warn of damage to a physical being. My body sends these signals to my brain. Much as I cannot disconnect from my sense of sight or hearing, I cannot disconnect from my sense of pain. I am aware of these electrochemical signals, and am aware of them for what they are, just electrochemical signals. Everything just is (or isn't, depends which way you look at it). That is true perfection.

    Life is beautiful, and so are you. Thank you for discussing this with me.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    seeker what are you arguing about? Do you know what's being said? We're both saying that suffering is perfect. Literally, I don't see the point in creating conflict here. What's the argument?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Could we please stick to the OP's original question?
    I realise there is much validty in current posts, but if we could please focus more directly on what the OP is seeking to clarify, rather than take this into the realms of 'advanced ideas'...

    We do not have the facility to move posts or create new threads out of posts within a thread that seem off-topic but are worthy of continuation.
    if I could, I would use the above to create a new thread, because it's interesting. But not completely on topic.
    Please, guys:
    Begin your own thread. It could be good.....
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