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Men must overcome their bestial nature by conscious decision.
i would suggest it is a matter of empathy. it is a matter of wisdom rather than will
buddha said his male disciples manage their sexual tendencies by regarding each woman as a mother or daughter
like now, i am in a house for the first time with a woman i do not not know. i am trapped here because of one of the largest most powerful cyclones in history. i was dropped here yesterday by a friend but her brother who lives here is staying with his partner so i am here with this woman
this woman is dressed in tight blue jeans, a tight black heavy metal T-shirt, she is covered in tatoos, she is drunk...and she is freaking out about her daughter who refusing to stay here in this cement block house but instead, the daughter wants to stay with her boyfriend in a weaker house (i personally would not stay in)
she is crying uncontrollably: "she is my life; she is my life force; she is my body; if anything happened to her i would die"
if have had to get this woman a number of times to ring her daughter, and to tell her daughter how she feels rather than me
regardless of this ladies outer image, inwardly, her priorities are those of a mother
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I think it utterly irrelevant whether you are a man or a woman. It's what you do, not what you are, that counts.
Looking through the alternate prism isn't possible for us ... gaining acceptance of what the other gender generally needs to do has helped me with patience - given that I live in a household, work, socialise, practice etc with many males. My grandmother was an independant person, a thinker and active in living her life until her death at 61. One of the few things I am able to remember her telling me was that women always set the pace in relationships with men - whether they know it or not - knowing it has been useful for me
like now, i am in a house for the first time with a woman i do not not know. i am trapped here because of one of the largest most powerful cyclones in history. if have had to get this woman a number of times to ring her daughter, and to tell her daughter how she feels rather than me
I understand that Northern Queensland is facing what will probably be the worst cyclone ever to hit Australia, and from just speaking to my cousin in Brisbane it is likely to make landfall around 10.30 pm my time South Australia - it is 8.00pm here now. My thoughts are with all facing this.
like women sit in front of lamas who preach love & think: "he is so wonderful"
Lol, so true from my own experience. I've heard it described as 'lama groupies'
Women also think 'he is so wonderful' about all kinds of celebrities though, and are willing to have sex with them to feed the fantasy. (I know this from having been married to a musician and seeing groupies in action)
All just seeking "love" (and an ideal partner) in whatever form it appears to be for them at that time.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2011
Love the quotation given by Walshe at the end of this passage:
"I am in love" means "I want me to be happy"; "I love" means "I want to make you happy."
Also this quote from the end of the same article ... Never let Passion override Compassion - just as relevant for men as women as both genders need to gain control in this area.
Perhaps off topic, but the Buddha was a "player" in his youth and developed wisdom in later years. This is a common life arc so to speak (not that the Buddha is common). A player shows a certain disregard for women. And women fall for the Don Juan type , giving their hearts when it is not warranted. i would suggest it is a matter of empathy. it is a matter of wisdom rather than will
buddha said his male disciples manage their sexual tendencies by regarding each woman as a mother or daughter
The story of the Buddha, therefore, is on some level, the story of a man coming to grips with his nature, overcoming it . As I have grown older, desire has lessoned . I have no need to "view women as my mother or daughter" to control myself. I am often simply "too pooped to pop." My thoughts, my energy (what is left of it) is directed , at least from my perspective, toward love and the appreciation of our common bond of suffering(common to most I assert) in what I view, at least personally, as the natural coarse of events.
So , for me, as a youth my "will" , kept my baser tendencies in check. As a middle aged man, my wisdom , though growing I hope, need not work too hard to steer me away from these tendencies.
Federica, do you not see men's struggle in this arena as different from that of women's?
I think it utterly irrelevant whether you are a man or a woman.
It's what you do, not what you are, that counts.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Both struggle, both suffer. People should understand that they're equal in being different and respect and accept that.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
As I have grown older, desire has lessoned . I have no need to "view women as my mother or daughter" to control myself. I am often simply "too pooped to pop." My thoughts, my energy (what is left of it) is directed , at least from my perspective, toward love and the appreciation of our common bond of suffering(common to most I assert) in what I view, at least personally, as the natural coarse of events.
Then this is not a voluntary self-control or discipline. you conclude this because age has left you no choice.
So , for me, as a youth my "will" , kept my baser tendencies in check. As a middle aged man, my wisdom , though growing I hope, need not work too hard to steer me away from these tendencies.
In other words, it takes you all night to do, what you used to do all night. before, it was self-restraint. Now, it's just aged lethargy!!
Do you think the Buddha too was influenced by "age lethargy?" Was his accomplishment helped by what I am suggesting is the natural coarse of events? Does aging help us(men) on the path? Can I take the story of the Buddha as my story, a human male's story? Even if I am off base, this might prove useful to me. As I look back on my first fifty years, I know I have grown and changed. I believe these changes are for the good. I anticipate more of the same. I am told the profile of the American Buddhist, its growth area, is 50 year old men with Master's degrees or better. Why do you think that is?
Anecdotally, the prisons fill with young rapists while the churches fill with old penitents and the like.
P.S. The Buddha and I share one thing: I (as a youth) likes the ladies! :thumbsup:
buddha said his male disciples manage their sexual tendencies by regarding each woman as a mother or daughte
But didn't the Buddha outline requirements for nuns that they not go to monasteries or be around monks unaccompanied? in recognition of the fact that monks couldn't control themselves? I read that in a discussion (or two) on this site. I have my doubts as to how well monks "manage their sexual tendencies".
like women sit in front of lamas who preach love & think: "he is so wonderful"
A player shows a certain disregard for women. And women fall for the Don Juan type
Guys? :wave: Instead of speaking in sweeping generalities, could you please qualify your statements, as in "some women sit in front of lamas...", and "some women fall for the Don Juan type"? For accuracy's sake. I could easily say "women sit in front of lamas who preach loving-kindness and think, 'Why doesn't this guy practice what he preaches? Where is the loving-kindness?'", or "women are offended by Don Juan types", but that wouldn't be accurate either. That describes /some/ women, not all women. And we women will observe the same courtesy when speaking of men (and of women). Deal?
I wouldn't describe the Buddha as "a player" in his youth. Nothing I've read suggests that. To my understanding he was a prince and lived in luxury, and at some time he wed and had a child. A "player" brings to mind the type of guy that has many promiscuous relationships and avoids getting caught up in commitments; a real ladies' man, suave and nonchalant about sex.
Well, I'd like to know, because I wouldn't want to be slandering the Buddha by making ignorant remarks. But I suppose, otherwise it wouldn't matter. Darn, Cloud's gone from the forum, I see. Well, somebody must know.
Just because something is written somewhere doesn't make it true. There's no way to know. That's why I'm telling you, it doesn't matter. You can't slander the buddha.
Haha. The specifics, all that, it's just not important. You can study whatever you want and believe whatever you want, but ultimately it's just that. A belief.
All I was saying is that I've never read that, and I've read a lot where Buddhism is concerned. Someone somewhere on this thread calling Prince Siddhartha a player was the very first time I've ever heard him described as such, and such a thought had never entered my mind based on what I've read. Never laid eyes on any text that had him even engaging in sexual acts with anyone, or alluding to such, other than with his wife naturally (inferred because they had a child together).
That's possible, but it could also be possible he wasn't very driven by sexual desire. Some guys aren't led around so forcefully by it... Anyway to call him a player is jumping the gun a bit, based on an assumption that isn't really explicitly stated in the texts. That's all I got ta say about that. I don't even care really; but it's not the picture most people have.
No one said that. I certainly didn't! That's going from one extreme to the other. When in doubt, stick to the middle. The middle is not making either assumption, since it's not explicit. So... basically don't call him either a player or a non-player. There's no support for either. That's why I was saying "it's also possible", showing that either assumption can be made when the evidence is lacking. I don't mean to paint him like that either, just pointing out the fallacy in assuming the first.
...the Buddha did indeed speak about the differences between women and men. Here is one such from MN115 Bahudhatuka Sutta - The Many Kinds of Elements
MN 115 is not relevent. It simply states a Sammasambuddha (the founder of the Buddhist religion) cannot be a woman.
I don't see how it's not relevant. It details the difference between male mental habits/capabilities and female mental habits/capabilities. The differences between men and women can only be in either their physical or mental habits/shape. The differences in the physical are hardly relevant to the Buddhist path. The differences in the mental habits are stated to be relevant according to MN115. That's why I mentioned it.
Thanks, Vangelis, good to have you back. But bearing in mind the OP's question ("does the Buddha recognize such differences"), is there anything else in the texts that discusses male/female differences? (Other than that the husband serves the wife, and in exchange, she gives her love, we have that one.) The passage above only says women can't be a Buddha, men can. It also says, a women can't become a "Fully Enlightened One", but you say that he didn't mean a woman couldn't become enlightened. Is there a difference between "enlightened" and "a Fully Enlightened One"? Could you clarify? And why was it necessary for the nun who wanted to become a fully enlightened Buddha to be reborn as a male Deva?
Hi Dakini,
I have been away on holiday for a few weeks, but I'm back now.
By "Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One", the Buddha is referring to a "Sammasambuddha", basically, a Buddha who turns the wheel of the dhamma (ie, begins teaching the dhamma). An Arahat is an enlightened being who has been taught the path - ie, they haven't discovered the path for themselves. Only during the time of darkness, when the dhamma is no longer available can a fully awakened Buddha arise in the world. There are differences between the abilities and knowledge of a Buddha and an Arahat which are outlines in the Pali suttas.
Because the nun has a great desire to be a Sammasambuddha at some time in the future, she was reborn as a male.
I didn't mean to conjure up an image of gold chains and fancy automobiles when I called the Buddha a player. I was trying to amuse while looking for understanding. I am sorry. I wonder if the Buddha's life in many way mimics any man's. Is it in some ways a practical template for us men. Are the challenges he faced , are the solutions he found, in many ways the challenges we face and the solutions , if we are empathetic, ones we will find? I do not mean I will soon be enlightened should I continue to live a good life, nor that the Buddha's message is so facile. If ever there was a candidate for the middle way, it is me. In Christianity, Jesus did not appear until he was twenty and seems to have lived an"inhuman" (no sex, drugs and rock and roll) life. I am looking , if I find it is useful for me, for a human example, a template if you will. I want the Buddha to be a real man first and an "enlightened being" later when I may grasp some part of that accomplishment. I am "new to Buddhism" and so much of the above discussion is beyond me.
Perhaps off topic, but the Buddha was a "player" in his youth and developed wisdom in later years.
There is no evidence of this in the Buddhist scriptures.
The scriptures report the Buddha lived in three palaces and was entertained by dancing girls and he found it all rather boring.
We can consider why did it take the Prince 12 years of marriage to conceive a child and as soon as that child was born, the Prince left home?
My personal view is the Prince was not interested in sex &, in a 'deal', eventually conceived an heir for his father so his father would agree to his leaving the palace to be a monk.
The Prince/Buddha was naturally highly spiritual. The scriptures report his mind spontaneously entered the first meditative absorption (jhana) at four or six years old.
Minds that enter jhana basically have a natural disinterest in sex.
In the palace, the scriptures report the Prince saw how human beings were burned & anxious due to their infatuation with sensual pleasures, which he saw brought little happiness & much disappointment & suffering.
I didn't mean to conjure up an image of gold chains and fancy automobiles when I called the Buddha a player. I was trying to amuse while looking for understanding. I am sorry.
My impression is your views are from a modern perspective.
People often forget the 'sexual revolution' in the West is only 50 years old.
Most people cannot image how life was and how sexual views were before widespread birth control, which is only around 45 years old.
Like Jesus, the Buddha lived in a religious society. The Bible reports Jesus was a master of the Jewish scriptures at 12 years old. That Jesus was a carpenter is probably fiction. The brother of Jesus, James the Just, was a Pharisee. It follows Jesus must have come from a priestly family.
Although Buddha was not of the Brahmin caste, most if not all of his chief disciples were. It is highly probable the Prince Siddharta was raised with standard religious views, including moral precepts.
The Buddha taught according to the norms of his Brahministic society. He taught, according to custom, it is the duty of a parent to help arrange the marriage of their children. This generally occurred when the children were 16 years old.
To imagine the Buddha was 'a player' is inconsistant with the religious norms of his Brahministic society.
Similarly, one of the great disciples, Maha Kassapa, married to please his parents but he never had sex. He found a girl, a dakini, who also wanted to be an ascetic.
Once their parents died, they searched for a teacher & joined the Buddha.
I actually had to google "idiot compassion" to understand what it meant. I don't think it means you. It refers to the individual who believes he is acting compassionately by coddling someone instead of being truthful which would be kinder. He would be the idiot if he did that.
Cuz he thinks he knows the truth. That's why he thinks he has something to teach me.
I can't say for sure that he thinks he knows the the truth, but having read some of his posts I would say that he knows a good bit about Buddhism and Buddhist texts and this site is for and about learning about and discussing Buddhism, right? How could someone with a great deal of knowledge about the subject that you are here to discuss not have something to teach you?
@TheJourney I must say that I've noticed a lot of aggression and sarcasm in your replies, along with many uses of "this is how it is" or "this is fact, the end" type of responses; more like preaching instead of sharing your opinion.
Once again a discussion has gone off topic and veered into the realm of personal attacks.
Comments
buddha said his male disciples manage their sexual tendencies by regarding each woman as a mother or daughter
like now, i am in a house for the first time with a woman i do not not know. i am trapped here because of one of the largest most powerful cyclones in history. i was dropped here yesterday by a friend but her brother who lives here is staying with his partner so i am here with this woman
this woman is dressed in tight blue jeans, a tight black heavy metal T-shirt, she is covered in tatoos, she is drunk...and she is freaking out about her daughter who refusing to stay here in this cement block house but instead, the daughter wants to stay with her boyfriend in a weaker house (i personally would not stay in)
she is crying uncontrollably: "she is my life; she is my life force; she is my body; if anything happened to her i would die"
if have had to get this woman a number of times to ring her daughter, and to tell her daughter how she feels rather than me
regardless of this ladies outer image, inwardly, her priorities are those of a mother
It's what you do, not what you are, that counts.
like for men, we must develop some perspective, to affect an improvement in ourselves
as for woman, its like: "well, are you going to marry me & work to feed our children"
in my view, for woman, the moral perspective is not a struggle
like women sit in front of lamas who preach love & think: "he is so wonderful"
My grandmother was an independant person, a thinker and active in living her life until her death at 61. One of the few things I am able to remember her telling me was that women always set the pace in relationships with men - whether they know it or not - knowing it has been useful for me
Women also think 'he is so wonderful' about all kinds of celebrities though, and are willing to have sex with them to feed the fantasy. (I know this from having been married to a musician and seeing groupies in action)
All just seeking "love" (and an ideal partner) in whatever form it appears to be for them at that time.
i would suggest it is a matter of empathy. it is a matter of wisdom rather than will
buddha said his male disciples manage their sexual tendencies by regarding each woman as a mother or daughter
The story of the Buddha, therefore, is on some level, the story of a man coming to grips with his nature, overcoming it .
As I have grown older, desire has lessoned . I have no need to "view women as my mother or daughter" to control myself. I am often simply "too pooped to pop." My thoughts, my energy (what is left of it) is directed , at least from my perspective, toward love and the appreciation of our common bond of suffering(common to most I assert) in what I view, at least personally, as the natural coarse of events.
So , for me, as a youth my "will" , kept my baser tendencies in check. As a middle aged man, my wisdom , though growing I hope, need not work too hard to steer me away from these tendencies.
Federica, do you not see men's struggle in this arena as different from that of women's?
People should understand that they're equal in being different and respect and accept that.
before, it was self-restraint.
Now, it's just aged lethargy!!
Was his accomplishment helped by what I am suggesting is the natural coarse of events? Does aging help us(men) on the path?
Can I take the story of the Buddha as my story, a human male's story? Even if I am off base, this might prove useful to me.
As I look back on my first fifty years, I know I have grown and changed. I believe these changes are for the good. I anticipate more of the same. I am told the profile of the American Buddhist, its growth area, is 50 year old men with Master's degrees or better. Why do you think that is?
Anecdotally, the prisons fill with young rapists while the churches fill with old penitents and the like.
P.S. The Buddha and I share one thing: I (as a youth) likes the ladies! :thumbsup:
But didn't the Buddha outline requirements for nuns that they not go to monasteries or be around monks unaccompanied? in recognition of the fact that monks couldn't control themselves? I read that in a discussion (or two) on this site. I have my doubts as to how well monks "manage their sexual tendencies".
I have been away on holiday for a few weeks, but I'm back now.
By "Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One", the Buddha is referring to a "Sammasambuddha", basically, a Buddha who turns the wheel of the dhamma (ie, begins teaching the dhamma). An Arahat is an enlightened being who has been taught the path - ie, they haven't discovered the path for themselves. Only during the time of darkness, when the dhamma is no longer available can a fully awakened Buddha arise in the world. There are differences between the abilities and knowledge of a Buddha and an Arahat which are outlines in the Pali suttas.
Because the nun has a great desire to be a Sammasambuddha at some time in the future, she was reborn as a male.
Regards,
Vangelis
I wonder if the Buddha's life in many way mimics any man's. Is it in some ways a practical template for us men. Are the challenges he faced , are the solutions he found, in many ways the challenges we face and the solutions , if we are empathetic, ones we will find? I do not mean I will soon be enlightened should I continue to live a good life, nor that the Buddha's message is so facile. If ever there was a candidate for the middle way, it is me.
In Christianity, Jesus did not appear until he was twenty and seems to have lived an"inhuman" (no sex, drugs and rock and roll) life. I am looking , if I find it is useful for me, for a human example, a template if you will. I want the Buddha to be a real man first and an "enlightened being" later when I may grasp some part of that accomplishment. I am "new to Buddhism" and so much of the above discussion is beyond me.
The scriptures report the Buddha lived in three palaces and was entertained by dancing girls and he found it all rather boring.
We can consider why did it take the Prince 12 years of marriage to conceive a child and as soon as that child was born, the Prince left home?
My personal view is the Prince was not interested in sex &, in a 'deal', eventually conceived an heir for his father so his father would agree to his leaving the palace to be a monk.
The Prince/Buddha was naturally highly spiritual. The scriptures report his mind spontaneously entered the first meditative absorption (jhana) at four or six years old.
Minds that enter jhana basically have a natural disinterest in sex.
In the palace, the scriptures report the Prince saw how human beings were burned & anxious due to their infatuation with sensual pleasures, which he saw brought little happiness & much disappointment & suffering.
People often forget the 'sexual revolution' in the West is only 50 years old.
Most people cannot image how life was and how sexual views were before widespread birth control, which is only around 45 years old.
Like Jesus, the Buddha lived in a religious society. The Bible reports Jesus was a master of the Jewish scriptures at 12 years old. That Jesus was a carpenter is probably fiction. The brother of Jesus, James the Just, was a Pharisee. It follows Jesus must have come from a priestly family.
Although Buddha was not of the Brahmin caste, most if not all of his chief disciples were. It is highly probable the Prince Siddharta was raised with standard religious views, including moral precepts.
The Buddha taught according to the norms of his Brahministic society. He taught, according to custom, it is the duty of a parent to help arrange the marriage of their children. This generally occurred when the children were 16 years old.
To imagine the Buddha was 'a player' is inconsistant with the religious norms of his Brahministic society.
However, what we do not have to speculate about is the life of the Buddha's chief disciples, namely, Sariputta & Maha Mogallana.
These two, as youths, were leaders of Brahmin youth. It is clear they never had sex.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel090.html
Once their parents died, they searched for a teacher & joined the Buddha.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel345.html
:wave:
The only claim I have made about myself, on this site, is that of being an arsehole.
However, unlike yourself, the Buddha had zilch interest in sex.
:om:
And I'm not the buddha anymore than you're the buddha.
Once again a discussion has gone off topic and veered into the realm of personal attacks.