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Helping people (or not)
When we help people aren't we interfereing with their karma? with their suffering they are burning off their bad karma. Please help me understand this concept. I am trying to learn.
I mean a Nazi during WWII working in one of those horrific camps sending thousands to their deaths in a gas chamber, and feeling great satisfaction from his action. He later returns in another life as a woman in Rawanda, being repeatdly raped. Why should we help her? Thanks.
I once heard a story of a man who came to see the great Buddha. The man said I want to help people, ease their suffering, what is the best way? The buddha replied, it is like a man with an arrow stuck in his arm wanting to help people. His first duty is to take the arrow out and help himself.
I mean a Nazi during WWII working in one of those horrific camps sending thousands to their deaths in a gas chamber, and feeling great satisfaction from his action. He later returns in another life as a woman in Rawanda, being repeatdly raped. Why should we help her? Thanks.
I once heard a story of a man who came to see the great Buddha. The man said I want to help people, ease their suffering, what is the best way? The buddha replied, it is like a man with an arrow stuck in his arm wanting to help people. His first duty is to take the arrow out and help himself.
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Kamma is action, not result. suffering isn't burning off bad karma. Suffering is suffering. what they do with that suffering, is what counts.... Because all we see is the woman being raped. There is not one iota of a clue or proof that their previous life is as you say it was.
You see what is happening in front of you, and you respond to that.
Karma is not judgement or retribution. Karma is simply action. Whatever is being enacted wilfully, will bring a result (Vipaka). It is also like the man, who seeing one hit by an arrow, does not stop to analyse the construction, perfection, beauty and craftsmanship of the arrow, he merely pulls the arrow out.
Analysis is pointless. the point is to act compassionately and with wisdom.
The point is to act NOW, in THE NOW.
Or as Christians would say "There but for the grace of God go I".
If you think you are better than a Nazi, you are mistaken. If you think you and a Nazi are so different, they have no connection to yourself, you are ignorant of the true nature of things. We are all connected - even Nazis, and all deserving of compassion.
I guess I am not clear about the concept of karma. Most lay people like me believe that if you do wrong/evil you accumulate bad karma. So that nazi guard has 700 units of bad karma. He must suffer 700 units in his futures lives to undo it. Are you saying he must do 700 units of 'good to others' to redeem himself?
I mean where is the punishment for doing evil deeds?
I was brought up a muslim, and this nazi guard would go to a muslim hell. burn in fire, molten iron poured into his ears, you get the picture...
sorry for being so ignorant, just trying to learn.
Once a hindu friend told me, when we die, we go to a transit area. All of our previous lives are flashed before our eyes. We know exactly what we have done. So we know what work we have to do to redeem outselves. So we choose our next live based on that knowledge. Is that not so? Thanks again.
Recently, in Australia, there were severe bushfires. An evangelical preacher said publically this was due to abortion laws. The treasurer of Australia, who was a Christian himself, said the comment of the preacher was 'beyond the bounds of human decency'.
:coffee:
The Buddha called himself the Spiritual Friend (Kalyanamitta). He said in dependence on him (showing others the 8foldpath), human beings can make an end to suffering via their practise of the path.
:om:
But whatever we do, follows us like a shadow.
Yes, we know..... :rolleyes:
Most of us have been exposed to some form of theistic indoctrination, influence, teaching or conditioning.
Control though fear. We know about that.
we don't buy it, sorry.
And also this. No, that is not so.
This may be a Hindu concept, but it's not a Buddhist one.
some Buddhist traditions believe there is a "bardo" or transition period, between one life ending and the next beginning, but it's just a "waiting room", not a place where you can get slapped up for something we no longer have any control over.
There are realms where you are re-born into, but it's your our choice.
We go where our Kamma takes us, but these 'realms' are widely and largely now thought to be mere allegorical presentations of your state of mind, anyway.
Hinduism is not the same as Buddhism, so really, you need to ask questions with a clean slate, as it were.
Where is the deterrence, disincentive in buddhisism to stop people from doing evil or bad deeds then?.
abviously in traditional religions, people are controlled by fear. The fear of hell is a big deterrence.
Please help me understand. I suffer from ADD so reading books is rather difficult, but interacting with you smart people is of great help to me. There is something about chatting with people in a emotionally charged fourm helps me.
If anyone has the time, please do explain in detail. Thanks.
Sorry it's not more detailed, I've come to experience that reading on a forum will only force yourself to think more about an issue and then come to the conclusion that satisfies you. You won't just read something and accept it without doubt. Read what's being said and then think about it, experience it yourself and only then you'll see what is meant.
A person who adheres to Buddhism has the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold path and the 5 precepts.
But none of these are commandments, absolutes or hard-line directions.
And there is no outside force determining a punishment, or retribution.
The greatest deterrent is to be reborn in such a way as to endure suffering and the cycle of Samsara. There is no Fear element in Buddhism.
It's not the way.
All regret, remorse and correction is within the person themselves.
If someone partakes of a Voluntary, Volitional action (be it a thought, word or deed) then there is karma accumulated. But if there is no volition, only accident, then there is no kamma.
A person who truly follows the Dhamma, can learn to control their thoughts words and deeds and not act in such a way as to generate negative kamma.
If you strike your hand with a hammer, it hurts.
Will you keep striking your hand with a hammer?
perhaps not.....
Regarding that poor woman in Rawanda who was being raped, I was under the impression that innocent people like her, with no fault of their own are subjected to such autrocities due to their bad karma in previous lives.
buddhist concepts are quite confusing for me indeed. I think I am going to take up your advice and contemplate, mull them over for a while. Thanks again.
Even in your lifetime, when you commit something you personally know to be wrong, you suffer there and then through the sadness and tragic circumstance of your own unskilful action.
The moment you smack someone across the face, there is conflict within you.
You realise you may have had cause, but your response-action was not skilful or appropriate.
You regret your action because it makes you feel bad.
It can be depressing and demoralising to live with that.
That's suffering. Where did you get this impression? Who told you this?
The Buddha taught us that to try and discern the workings of Kamma is one thing guaranteed to send us round the bend.
What happened in the past, is pure conjecture. We have absolutely no way of knowing, and there is no point trying to guess.
What counts is the suffering a person is feeling now, and trying to help them now. Any time.
However, those consequences could be very complex - it could come out almost anywhere. On a simple level, if you are good and kind to people around you, you tend to be loved, have more friends and experience more satisfaction in life. Treating people badly, however, often leads to people having few friends, but worse still, having an unhappy conscience. But of course we can always think of exceptions to that rule.
Then again, think of the people in your life who you would say were cheerful, kind and well respected and I'll bet you'll find a kind person.
I grew up in Germany in the 1970s, so knew several old people who had been Nazis (although few ever admitted it, such was the shame). What I discovered was that Nazis were not aliens, they were ordinary people caught up in extraordinary events. For the most part they were good people who allowed themselves to be conned. The price they paid for that was perpetual fear of being found out, suspicion from the younger generation about what they'd been up to in the war and feelings of shame (for those with a conscience).
Those who had resisted, however, were lauded as heroes, statues put up in their honour, even museums celebrating their lives. The 'Archive of the Resistance' in Berlin is one of the most moving and heart-rending museums in the world - it has a room for every group in society whose members fought the Nazis, from girlscouts to priests. This is where it gets complicated. Because we cannot discern another's karma we cannot know if being a war rape victim was because of previous "bad" karma, or if it was something else. Some traditions, such as my own, believe some individuals can choose their rebirth and may choose to be born into such difficult circumstances, for the sake of others.
Perhaps the woman is actually a saint (a Boddhisattva) who has chosen this path to help other women in her predicament, or in order to bring her attackers to realisation of their crimes (there is some amazing work going on in Rwanda, re reconciliation, by some amazing people).
I obviously have no idea and the Buddha said we shouldn't speculate on another's karma. It's not our job. Our "job" is to show compassion, without judgement.
Great Post, thank you.
I guess I am having difficulty with understanding why some innocent people, no fault of their own suffer. This seem to happen more often to woman all over the world. This 'disparity' in the circumstances that one is born into is very troubling to me.
To give you an example, Warren Buffet the billionair investor jokes that he won the ovarian lottery. That he is 'lucky' to be born in the US, in a middle class family. Lucky to have attended an Ivy league school....
Then you have a 14-year old girl in Thailand. Who is sold as a sex slave by her poor impovorished farmer parents. This poor little girl being born in circumstances beyond her control, with no fault of her own.
What is the reason Warren Buffet won the ovarian lottery and she lost?
So the important point here is NO fault of their own, what does the buddah say about this disparity?
Thanks.
Though I didn't choose to be born, my parents chose to have a child. Though I didn't choose the state of the world, it is in such a state because of past conditions. Now if I choose to have children, I make that choice for them.
How would you explain this 14 year old sex slave losing the ovarian lottery and being born to suffer. Thanks.
Ok?
Look, humbleone, sometimes things are the way they are because that's the way they are.
If you want to look at this situation, and we suppose, for a moment, that this girl's kamma has brought her to this situation, then what was it that brought her parents to the decision to sell her into slavery? What created their misery? And what created the origin of their misery? and how was the origin of THAT misery born? Where does it all begin? How far do you need to calculate the knock-on effect? Where does one person's Karma end and the next person's start?
It's impossible to pin down, and you'd go insane trying.
I say again:
The karma of the past is not relevant. The karma of anyone's past cannot be seen, understood, calculated or determined. The original Karma bringing anyone, to anywhere, cannot be established for sure, for sure.
The Dalai Lama once said something very logical:
"If you wish to know what you once were, look at your body, now.
If you wish to know what you will become, look at your Mind, now."
Kamma is everything you decide to do.
So Do it right.
And where would you place that person that was born in the wealthy family?
Because aslong as poverty exists these spots will need to be filled.