I am a scientist (a story of no particular interest or meaning)

Vilhjalmr

Still a student, but still a scientist. I have received money for my work; that makes me a professional scientist, even if I don't have my PhD quite yet. And I'll get it; I have to. I feel in devotion to academia there is a certain purity of purpose. It gives me an identity: I am a biochemist. I am smart. I am good. I am a scientist.

My life is mostly spent in labs and on computers, typing up papers and designing a series of inconclusive experiments. I get up, eat breakfast, then work on my thesis until dinner. Then I have an hour or two to indulge in my hobbies before it's time for bed and another round. My hobbies are mostly the same thing I do at the university. I don't really have many pleasures besides biochemistry.

But there are a few. One of them is guns. I am a vegetarian, and I love animals (including humans). I certainly don't condone hunting, or using guns on anything but targets. I suppose I like them from a mechanical perspective, or perhaps a philosophical one: the object is designed merely to propel a piece of metal down a short, rifled tube. The use it is put to is up to the individual. As long as we can buy guns, we can value knowledge for its own sake.

There is no knowledge inherently evil, just as there are no evil machines.

There are evil people. The strange thing is, many of them don't think they're evil. How can one tell if one is? Can a person change their nature? At least a person can change their competence. Maybe great men can blot out their sins by virtue of greatness. We are willing to forgive Newton much.

Irrelevant digressions, anyway. Whatever the reason, I have always loved firearms and am always looking for an opportunity to add to my collection. About a week ago I took a grand I had saved up and went to a gun show; it is the first I have attended. It is quite crowded and I'm not that good with crowds, and I don't think I fit in, but I refuse to sabotage myself in this and I ignore the feelings.

"And what I'm saying is, if Obama don't come to Jesus, he ain't nothin' in the end..." Snatches of conversation drift to my ears. This is why I don't fit in. I move down the line of booths, checking out all the firearms and related merchandise for sale. I find a K98K Mauser with Totenkopf stamps on the chamber; it looks legit, but I'm not sure. The Hakenkreuze beneath the skulls have the peculiar feature of only having one arm of the cross. Perhaps the other has been obliterated through wear and tear, but the lack of a Waffenamt makes me suspicious.

I put the rifle down and look up, across the pathway between booths. There is a diverse crowd here; rather surprisingly, it does not just consist of militia-types and grizzled old veterans. People have brought their entire families. My eyes meet hers quite by accident, and they are big and brown and beautiful. Her skin is dusky and her hair is black. It frames her face in delicate waves that go down to her shoulders. I don't remember what she wore.

I feel a shock go through me; why, I don't know. Probably just surprise at accidentally making such intimate contact. I look past her, slightly, as if I meant to view the line of rifles behind her. She keeps looking at me. The crowd moves slowly, and over the course of an hour or a few seconds, we pass each other. I look slightly past her and she looks up into my eyes. I cannot interpret her expression. She passes out of my sight and vanishes behind me in the crowd.

The shock lingers. She has lodged herself in my head. My heart aches to know what she thinks, to tell her what I do. Guns are forgotten. Maybe she thinks I am handsome. Maybe she knows I think she's pretty. My mind conjures up fantasies of a girl entranced, trying to find me again in the stadium, striking up a conversation with me somehow, giving me the chance to tell her she is lovely.

Or a girl who thinks I truly was looking past her (never!), who didn't realize she was a vision of loveliness, who assumes I cannot be interested in her. Or perhaps just a girl who was bored and let her gaze drift. Maybe it was just surprise on her part. Maybe it was nothing. I don't know. I never will. No words can ever pass between us. I won't even know her name.

And I guess that's as it should be. I don't need to. It is my secret burden. I am a biochemist. I will have a doctorate. That's what my life is, and it is good, and I am a good person. I contribute to the sum of all human knowledge. I am not lonely.

I am a scientist.

federica

Thanks.
What's your point exactly?

Vilhjalmr

You're welcome, although I'm not sure for what.

There's no point. Maybe it's about alienation.

(I have moved my disclaimer here: I write it because I like to write stories, and a story needs at least one potential reader. Potential reader, because I don't mind (I might prefer) if there are none in reality. There just has to be the chance.)

federica

I thanked you because it must have taken some time to consider, compose and write.

If it's a 'story', shall I move it to Arts and Writings, rather than members only?
The Members only forum is for established members to be able to expose certain problems or issues they might have, of a highly personal nature, that they do not necessarily wish any random surfers to find and read, but need input and feedback of a Buddhist nature, from other members....

Vilhjalmr

I thanked you because it must have taken some time to consider, compose and write.

Ah, yes. Thank YOU for noticing. :-)

If it's a 'story', shall I move it to Arts and Writings, rather than members only?
The Members only forum is for established members to be able to expose certain problems or issues they might have, of a highly personal nature, that they do not necessarily wish any random surfers to find and read, but need input and feedback of a Buddhist nature, from other members....

I'm sorry; I didn't see that forum. I think it would fit better there. I might call it highly personal and about certain problems, but I also don't delineate any actual problems for specifically Buddhist input. I guess it's more to see if anyone identifies, maybe.

ShiftPlusOne

I only have one thing to add. As pointed out in the last BuddhistSocietyWA talk, there are no evil people, there is ignorance. That way, it makes more sense that 'evil people' don't see the 'evil'. Everybody wants to be useful, nobody wants to be evil. Normally 'evil' is done "for the greater good" or with Machiavellian justification of "the end justifies the means". It's due to the ignorance of the net effect of their actions that gives you the impression that they are evil.

Personally, I think adjectives are useless in describing people. Actions, with the correct tense, are what better define people. There are no 'evil' people, there are people who have done something that you would define as evil.

Well, that was a fairly long way of making a simple point, on my behalf. =/

shanyin

Shift I prefer explanations that arn't vague.

Cloud

All SPO is saying is there's no good or evil, only ignorance. Everyone sees themselves as the hero in the story... the one who's right.

No one sets out to be good or evil, these are just labels. It depends upon your perspective.

Vilhjalmr

If anyone reads it and has the time/inclination, I would be interested to hear what you got out of the story - if anything. Is it a sappy story about unrequited love? Does it mean to explore the philosophical implications of guns by juxtaposing them with romance? Is the protagonist guilty over his cannibal lusts, revealed by the fact that he includes humans with animals?

(Suggestions above may not be entirely serious...)

It's due to the ignorance of the net effect of their actions that gives you the impression that they are evil.

I agree. Some don't even care about the net effect of their actions, but I think that is due to ignorance too. (I don't mean because of karma; I think empathy is a particular type of knowledge and intelligence.)

The question is then, I think, "how does one know if one's actions are good?" - or, if you prefer, "not ignorant."

federica

....."philosophical implications of guns by juxtaposing them with guns?"..... :wtf:

Try again....?

federica

You know if your actions are good if you're left with a feeling of wanting to smile, because of a good feeling in your gut.

Vilhjalmr

....."philosophical implications of guns by juxtaposing them with guns?"..... :wtf:

Try again....?

Again has been tried.

You know if your actions are good if you're left with a feeling of wanting to smile, because of a good feeling in your gut.

I don't know if that's a reliable way to tell. Everyone would have different definitions of good.

ShiftPlusOne

Vilhjalmr, Buddhism and the eightfold path play and important role here. The very issue of the human condition or 'evil' is addressed in the four noble truths. It's there, there's a root cause, the root cause is ignorance, there's a treatment for ignorance.

I think the answer to this question would require an essay or two... or the whole Pali Canon. There are three elements to consider, concentration/effort/mindfulness, ethics, and wisdom. If you're lacking in one of these, you'll have trouble thinking clearly. Without wisdom and experience, you aren't able to effectively distinguish between right and wrong. Without mindfulness, you don't know yourself well enough to judge your own intentions. Without ethics, you have no direction or moral compass to guide you. These three properties are developed by the 8FP. All of these properties are linked and rely on each other. You can't have wisdom without mindfulness, for example.

Buddhism teaches us to disconnect from our reptilian brain (amygdala) and consider things rationally (amongst other things 'course).

That's the simple answer. To me, the whole practice of Buddhism is about answering that question.

mugzy

There are evil people. The strange thing is, many of them don't think they're evil.

Are they really evil people or are there just evil actions?

genkaku

Vilhjalmr -- Very nicely done. I rate reflection as a good thing. Pronouncements don't solve much. Reflections meander and sniff like some cautious alley cat. Reflections test and dismiss the limitations of definition and meaning -- the stuff that invariably turns stale and confining. Reflection is like a smorgasbord that cannot be limited to the Swedish meatballs ... reflection ambles and segues and leads us all by the hand.

And every now and then, reflection poses a possibility that wants some deeper and more determined investigation -- no more lounge-lizard sallies, but a get-to-the-bottom-of-it suggestion. Each chooses his or her possibility to get down with. One such might be Swami Vivekananda's observation, "The mind (he meant intellect) is a good servant and a poor master."

Or not.

Thanks for the ramble.

ownerof1000oddsocks

All SPO is saying is there's no good or evil, only ignorance. Everyone sees themselves as the hero in the story... the one who's right.

No one sets out to be good or evil, these are just labels. It depends upon your perspective.

Good and Evil are both forms, not essential characteristics. Evil is derived from ignorance, but the terms are not interchangeable.

My difficulty in defining good and evil is a consequence of the many practical forms in which both can be observed. The fact is that we do have a right action, right speech, right conduct, etc which points to the good, the high regard and compassion we develop for sentient life.

chanratt

I liked reading this story. people here have already turned it into an argument though which happens on these boards a lot. I've seen less flaming on video game and general pop culture forums that I do here.

Roger

I grew up with guns. My father was an accomplished trapshooter. Trap or skeet: it's basically hunting in symbolic form.

Guns were a justified blessed necessary "evil" because we are stuck on this biological planet where preying on and killing other animals is necessary for survival. It's a troublesome given. Makes me sick sometimes being "trapped (lol)" here.

Of course some idiots transitioned from hunting to organized murder with the gun use in killing other human beings to augment their basic survival with the embellishment of stolen riches. Suffering by all animals and eventually cruelty imposed by humans: great situation we're in!

I like the gadget and machine aspect of guns, and I have a fascination with them and I have some of my Dad's best shotguns. That's about it. I'm not shopping for guns, I'm not going to gun shows, I haven't discharged gun since I was a kid. I'm not sure where the shotguns are..., oh yes..., that long box in the storage, one in the closet.

Guns are symbols of the pathetic biological existence humans have on this planet. I don't like them.

Meeting a girl at a gun show? Sounds like a nightmare to me. Would make me crazy! Means my hormones are driving me, the potential mate may have zero awareness of deeper issues since she's being stalked in a large room 3/4 filled with military homicide devices.

Just my point of view. Thanks for your story V. Got me thinking about this issue. Good luck to you. I in no way want to judge or criticize what you think and do. I have enough trouble living with my own idiosyncrasies.

Cloud

The fact is that we do have a right action, right speech, right conduct, etc which points to the good, the high regard and compassion we develop for sentient life.

That's one way of looking at it, but by my understanding all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as taught by the Buddha have absolutely nothing to do with good or evil. They are exclusively aspects of how to practice and live that lead to the cessation of suffering.

Now if we define suffering as evil and non-suffering as good, then yes the Noble Eightfold Path is tied in with good. These are still just concepts, labels, part of our dualistic thinking.

genkaku

Two things that live up to their functional potential: The Hula Hoop and the M-1 rifle.

ownerof1000oddsocks

That's one way of looking at it, but by my understanding all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as taught by the Buddha have absolutely nothing to do with good or evil. They are exclusively aspects of how to practice and live that lead to the cessation of suffering.

Now if we define suffering as evil and non-suffering as good, then yes the Noble Eightfold Path is tied in with good. These are still just concepts, labels, part of our dualistic thinking.

If the outcome doesn't matter, then why have a 'right' speech or a 'right' conduct? I thought the whole point of putting the word 'right' in there means there's an alternative. As dualistic as that sounds to me, I assume the end of suffering will mean no war, and generally no people going around killing one another which, I hope you agree, is not good.


The only reason I can see why the path has no connection with good and evil is because it denys the existence of them. Well obviously they're only descriptive terms, not name words. They don't point to an object; they don't really exist but they do function as communicative tools. So hopefully we can all agree no they don't really exist, but they are uaed in a loose way to refer to an outcome, that may or may not entail suffering.

aaaaaaaaaa

Cloud

"Right" is just one translation. "Complete" or "Perfect" are also as valid. They are simply meant to emphasize that each path factor comes to a complete fruition in conjunction with all of the others. The Buddha didn't teach good and evil, he taught skillful and unskillful. Skillful and Unskillful deal exclusively with suffering and the cessation of suffering.

ownerof1000oddsocks

The Buddha didn't teach good and evil, he taught skillful and unskillful. Skillful and Unskillful deal exclusively with suffering and the cessation of suffering.

Yeah but skillful and unskillful carry the weight of good and bad. It is implied because we're not talking about fixing bridges or hula hooping, we're talking about correct usage. Whether you use the word perfect or complete there is still the issue of a desired outcome.

If I had no idea of what suffering is, and I asked someone: 'why end suffering?', what would the answer be? Because it is the skillful thing to do?
What if I had no conception of what's skillful or not? How about if I ask 'why is something not skillful if it increases suffering?' What's so skillful about stopping suffering?

zombiegirl

well, as eddie izzard says... "guns don't kill people! bullets kill people!"

but vilhjalmr, you asked what we got out of your story?

to me, i feel loneliness. as a scientist, you live a sort of secluded life and take pleasure in a certain inanimate object, which is also void of human interaction. you go to a show and instead of finding the gun of your dreams... you have a real life encounter with a person. you long for the conclusion to your meeting, but it never comes... so you end with:

"And I guess that's as it should be. I don't need to. It is my secret burden. I am a biochemist. I will have a doctorate. That's what my life is, and it is good, and I am a good person. I contribute to the sum of all human knowledge. I am not lonely.

I am a scientist."

but to me, this last part does not feel as though it comes from the heart. it feels as though you are trying to convince yourself. you feel that the right thing to do is to sacrifice your life for the betterment of society, but sometimes something comes along that makes you wish for that selfish interaction. you may be the man behind the curtain, but you long to be on the stage.

well... that's what i got out of it anyways. but, i am also very open to the possibility that i am trying to put myself in your shoes too much. simply put, i am very much the opposite and human interaction is extremely important to me. i may just be telling you how i would feel if i were in your situation, lol. so if it doesn't resonate... oops, my bad...

Vilhjalmr

I have read everyone's responses and will reply individually shortly. :-)

well, as eddie izzard says... "guns don't kill people! bullets kill people!"

but vilhjalmr, you asked what we got out of your story?

to me, i feel loneliness. as a scientist, you live a sort of secluded life and take pleasure in a certain inanimate object, which is also void of human interaction. you go to a show and instead of finding the gun of your dreams... you have a real life encounter with a person. you long for the conclusion to your meeting, but it never comes... so you end with:

...

but to me, this last part does not feel as though it comes from the heart. it feels as though you are trying to convince yourself. you feel that the right thing to do is to sacrifice your life for the betterment of society, but sometimes something comes along that makes you wish for that selfish interaction. you may be the man behind the curtain, but you long to be on the stage.

Thank you! I am glad to have sparked discussion, but I am even more glad someone has posted an interpretation. You have made my day. As to your thoughts... that is one of the main things I hoped the story communicated, so yes, it resonates indeed! Your summary could almost replace the story itself. I try to convince myself I don't need a conclusion to the meeting; I don't need interaction that could never occur anyway; I only need science. Success. Intelligence. I am worth something because of these. As someone above said, "stalking a girl at a gun show?" But I'm not creepy. I am a man of knowledge. I am successful. That erases the creepiness and loneliness... right?

This is my life; it's what I have chosen; if I am unhappy, it is because I do not have sufficient devotion to my field... right?

Perhaps I have been missing something, since I felt compelled to seek out the company of others to relate this story. It's a weird and small thing to turn my world upside-down.

Thanks again. :-)

Vilhjalmr

I liked reading this story. people here have already turned it into an argument though which happens on these boards a lot. I've seen less flaming on video game and general pop culture forums that I do here.

I'm glad you liked it. I don't mind argument; it means people got something out of it, ideally!

Vilhjalmr -- Very nicely done. I rate reflection as a good thing. Pronouncements don't solve much. ...

Thanks for the ramble.

The pleasure is mine. :-) Your post here is almost poetic; I agree that pronouncements are limiting. They don't leave much room for discussion, or indeed reflection. I have tried to emphasize reflection through "hiding" the main thrust of the story... though it is up to the reader, of course, to decide what that thrust may be.

Guns are symbols of the pathetic biological existence humans have on this planet. I don't like them.

Meeting a girl at a gun show? Sounds like a nightmare to me. Would make me crazy! Means my hormones are driving me, the potential mate may have zero awareness of deeper issues since she's being stalked in a large room 3/4 filled with military homicide devices.

Just my point of view. Thanks for your story V. Got me thinking about this issue. Good luck to you. I in no way want to judge or criticize what you think and do. I have enough trouble living with my own idiosyncrasies.

Thanks for reading. :-) I love shooting skeet. I am better with a rifle, though. To me, guns are a symbol of something else, but hopefully that is apparent in the story. I also forgot to mention that they are "the great equalizers" - a woman, for instance, will have trouble defending herself in a fistfight, but with a handgun she is as formidable as the biggest bruiser.

Meeting a girl at a gun show? Problematic indeed. I'm alone in a crowded room.

What deeper issues do you refer to?

Are they really evil people or are there just evil actions?

There are people who do more evil actions than good actions, I think.

Now if we define suffering as evil and non-suffering as good, then yes the Noble Eightfold Path is tied in with good. These are still just concepts, labels, part of our dualistic thinking.

I think that suffering is evil and non-suffering is good is axiomatic; almost a truth by definition.

Cloud

Well, "evil" may be a bit strong. People don't want to overcome suffering because it's "evil", since evil is a term used to denote actions taken by humans, but rather because they consider suffering to be "bad". It's true we don't consider suffering to be the ideal state if we're seeking out release from it, but our value judgments are still just that: judgments.

Vilhjalmr

Yes, I misphrased that - suffering is axiomatically bad and actions which are intended to cause suffering would be evil. To the best of my ability to determine it, pleasure or happiness is the highest (or only) good, and there is no other yardstick for measuring the worth of an action. This must take into account (to the best of your ability) the pleasure and happiness of everyone involved, of course - it does not imply maximizing pleasure for yourself only.

I tend to take a somewhat Utilitarian stance on the matter.

Roger

Meeting a girl at a gun show? Problematic indeed. I'm alone in a crowded room.

What deeper issues do you refer to?

I don't know. It's a weird issue. Sorry I brought it up. Basically "all" my friends think I'm nuts to still have some of my dad's shotguns. They all know guns are bad news. It would be a great world if that Pandora's box wasn't open and guns were scarce. Well... the Pandora's Box _IS_ open. I guess I don't want to forget that guns _suck_. My wife is okay with what I have but she'd go crazy if I bought an assault rifle for example. Fortunately I do not ever plan to get one. No reason to have an assault rifle. If she "allowed" me to get one or encouraged me to get one I'd wonder about her. They are intended to kill _people_. I don't want stuff that kills people. Read about it - it's very rare event that killing someone is absolutely necessary to save the shooter's life. Please let's not debate this: it's too painful, one of us BETTER be wrong. UGH! Sorry for bringing it up. Anyway, just trying to answer the question you astutely raised. Difficult question and answer.

Vilhjalmr

^ I disagree almost entirely (especially if you suggest non-lethal self-defense techniques), but I respect your no-debate request. I think I see what you meant; so for me, there would be no deeper issues, as a girl at a gun show probably feels similarly to me about guns. Assuming she went of her own volition, of course.

Roger

Yes, I understand Vil. I really do. I'm just trying to stay sane. I might have my head in the sand a bit, though the killing thing seems impossible for me to get over. AWWWGGGHH!! Anyway... . Thanks.

MellowViper

Thanks for the post. I don't really know how people who do destructive, evil things can actually know they're doing evil.

If there is a way, the answer exists somewhere in the depths of the subconscious most likely. I think on some level, people know they're doing wrong, even when they have rationalizations. Its just their egos drown it out.

ShiftPlusOne

MellowViper, exactly. That's why I think meditation is important.

For example, I am usually fairly quiet around people I don't know. My justification was that I am just a shy person and there's nothing wrong with that. Upon further examination I found that I was worried about what they might think if I said something. Okay, that's a bit of social anxiety, that's kind of understandable. But when why was I worried about them judging me? I found that I was worried about them judging me for what I say because I was judging them for what they were saying. This whole side of me was hidden in plain sight. If I was honest with myself earlier, I would've seen it. However, it was clouded by the justifications that I had.

Then I had many more realisations like the one above. It became apparent to me that the things we worry about or don't like about other people reflects what's going on inside our own minds. Fear as reflection of self was quite an important meditation insight for me. I am thinking maybe that's why so many publicly homophobic politicians are secretly gay, for example.