"Meditation is overrated"

buddhajunkie

(paraphrased)

From an article by Prevention magazine:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40200010/ns/health-aging/

Yesterday's wisdom: "Om" your way to calmness

Today's smart strategy: Do something you love

For some people, meditation is the secret to serenity, but for others, it's a fast track to frayed nerves. In fact, in a study published in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 54% of participants reported feeling anxious while meditating! "There is no evidence that meditation 'cools off' the body's stress response better than any other type of stress reduction technique, so you have to find what works for you," insists Jonathan C. Smith, PhD, director of the Stress Institute at Roosevelt University. Anything that allows you to disengage from your thoughts can help you relax. One way meditation works is by breaking the chain of everyday thoughts, which are often tied to our to-do lists and other stressors, according to Herb Benson, MD, director emeritus of the Benson-Henry Institute for Mind Body Medicine at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston and author of Relaxation Revolution. While chanting a mantra certainly helps to quiet your mind, if meditating is not your thing, any repetitive activity that keeps your attention in the present moment, including jogging, swimming, painting, walking, knitting, or praying, will work just as well, he says.

ShiftPlusOne

It's funny that they suggest mindfulness as an alternative to meditation...

"While chanting a mantra certainly helps to quiet your mind, if meditating is not your thing, any repetitive activity that keeps your attention in the present moment, including jogging, swimming, painting, walking, knitting, or praying, will work just as well, he says. "

If I could be bothered, I am sure I could find at least 50 studies showing that meditation reduces anxiety. So, I wonder how many percent of participants were anxious when not meditating.

I am going to read the actual study and get back to you.

Roger

I don't even KNOW an expert, but I heard anxious people will have an extremely difficult time with M.

They should AVOID it in fact.

T or F?

Thanks

Linc

To me, it sounds like a doctorate doesn't make you any better at meditating.

ownerof1000oddsocks

Meditation is underrated.

ShiftPlusOne

As suspected, the MSNBC fired up its misleadatron.

The article they are talking about is from 1976. The experiment was split into two parts.

First:
49 anxious college students were assigned to TM.
51 were assigned to "periodic somatic inactivity" (PSI).
They used a system designed to measure anxiety, called "State-Trait Anxiety Inventory" (STAI) A-Trait Scale.

Now get this...
"PSI was designed to match
TM in every respect that might foster expec-
tation of relief. However, unlike TM, PSI
incorporated a daily exercise involving sitting
with eyes closed and not meditating."
Ha!

Second:
TM-like exercises were compared to "cortically mediated stabilisation" (CMS).
CMS is a fancy way of saying "sitting eyes closed and thinking happy thoughts"
Again... Ha!

I don't see where they got the "54%" from, that wasn't part of the experiment.

So the main mistake made by the writer was assuming that TM is the only type of meditation. The main mistake made by the researcher was assuming that "just sitting" and walking mindfully are not types of meditation.

What the research actually shows us is that TM is no better than any other kind of meditation, so you shouldn't have to spend a fortune.

Unless I have the wrong article (Psychotherapeutic Effects of Transcendental Meditation with Controls for Expectation of Relief and Daily Sitting by Jonathan C. Smith from the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology), this is very sloppy journalism and research.

DhammaDhatu

imo, meditation can be overrated because, often, the harmony we are seeking with the other world can be found simply through having basic wisdom

but if we need to realise emptiness, then, yes, meditation is important

:om:

ownerof1000oddsocks

why do we need to realise emptiness DD?

ShiftPlusOne

This also might be worth pointing out. Most research into meditation deals with anxiety reduction since that's the main application of it for non-spiritual/religious people. So, if all you want is to reduce stress, then sure, hitting the gym is probably just as good. However, if you want to gain some insight or reach some higher goals (bad choice of words, I know), then the gym is not going to do you any good.

And yes, meditation can be overrated, as DD pointed out. Meditation is only a part of the eightfold path, it's not the whole path. Some people meditate a lot, but have absolutely no compassion for anybody else. I don't see a point in meditating more than a couple of times a day (aside from everyday mindfulness).

genkaku

If you hope to improve something, meditation is worthless. If you want a little clarity and peace, meditation is a good idea.

ShiftPlusOne

Clarity and peace is not an improvement?

Mountains

I'd say most people who start meditating go into it expecting results. That misses the whole point, and is a sure fire way to get nothing but frustration out of it.

Jeffrey

Meditation will make you anxious if you are striving to have a different state of mind. That belief implies that you would be ok if only you were calmer, had a better knee, or a relationship. If you don't take this opportunity to love yourself as you are then it is a shame.

ShiftPlusOne

Again, I think that only applies if you get into meditation to recall past lives and find the meaning of life. If you just want to relax and clear your mind for a while, I don't see what's wrong with that. I am sure craving results is a massive hindrance, but it's still better than not meditating at all, I'd say.

Jeffrey

Yeah persistence is the key. Striving is a hindrance but if you are patient and persistent the penny will drop and the habit of wanting it to be something will wear out. At that point it is like a mountain. It isn't doing anything it is just standing there being a mountain. But we appreciate it for its nature. In the same way all the experiences in meditation do not have to be special. Spiritual boredom cuts through 'Buddhism with credentials'.

Vajraheart

If you hope to improve something, meditation is worthless. If you want a little clarity and peace, meditation is a good idea.

Brilliant, Genkaku is talking about desire, or the error correction error which leads to GE food, the desire for parasite control which ends up screwing up environment, all sorts of faulty outcomes, when meditation actually leads more to acceptance and peace.

DhammaDhatu

why do we need to realise emptiness DD?

hi

(i meant to say "harmony we are seeking with the OUTER world"...)

emptiness is generally the prescription for the cessation of suffering

if the mind is free from 'self-view' then suffering is an impossibility

with metta

Glow

Even ignoring the fact that the article is misleading and citing a decades-old study, meditation will often bring up anxiety in the short-term. In an interview, I heard Jack Kornfield refer to meditation as "confronting our karma." When we sit down in meditation and avoid distracting ourselves with discursive thought, we open ourselves up to the quality of mind that we have inherited -- an inheritance of habits of thought and conduct, most of the time accumulated quite unknowingly and certainly unintentionally. The spiritual path is one of becoming more and more conscious of such habits, so that we can live more skillfully and learn to think, speak, and act in ways that lead to well-being rather than suffering.

Chronically anxious people inherit a karma of reacting to distress in a certain way, and reacting to those reactions in a certain way. The result is that they will inevitably have to face all of that when they sit. The trick to turning anxiety into a source of insight into the nature of the body-mind complex and long-term transformation is to observe these patterns of thought and feeling with compassion (for oneself) and equanimity (observing it as the inheritance of our past karma -- not in the sense of retribution for wrongdoing in a previous lifetime, but simply the natural consequence of our past conditioning in this life).

buddhajunkie

Yes, this is probably shoddy journalism, but nothing too surprising-- journalists are under constant pressure to find something new and eye-catching. What better than attacking something that seems obviously good?

imo, meditation can be overrated because, often, the harmony we are seeking with the other world can be found simply through having basic wisdom

Yes, but I think mindfulness meditation helps with acquiring basic wisdom.

If you hope to improve something, meditation is worthless.

I'd say most people who start meditating go into it expecting results. That misses the whole point, and is a sure fire way to get nothing but frustration out of it.

Meditation will make you anxious if you are striving to have a different state of mind.

I disagree with this very common viewpoint of not being results-oriented. If people couldn't expect results then they would have no reason to try meditation!

Many people turn to meditation in hopes that it will reduce their suffering. That is a reasonable expectation, and a skillful one.

Jeffrey

buddhajunkie I agree but they have to persist through the obstacle of trying to manipulate their experience. I started meditation hoping for reduced anxiety. My anxiety lessened when I stopped struggling. I am speaking not from theory although it is taught that way also by Jon Kabatt Zinn in his stress relief clinic which has operated for over 15 years and treated thousands of people.

Vincenzi

it is an essential part of the path towards nirvana, if anything (as others have said) it is underrated.

DhammaDhatu

Yes, but I think mindfulness meditation helps with acquiring basic wisdom.

hi BJ

the basic wisdom i am referring to is things like the buddha's mundane teachings, especially about how to conduct the various social relationships

when we understand how things should ideally be, the complexity & confusion of the world is clearly comprehended

instead of looking at the problems of the world with meditative unconditional awareness, we look up the world clearly understanding its problems

this mundane wisdom we cannot obtain from meditation, unless our mind develops the divine eye (special powers)

kind regards

zenff

“Meditation is overrated?”
Not “rating” is what defines meditation.

And I think I agree that some activity can do the same thing for people, partly.
Working in the garden for instance, is a genuine Dharma Door for me.

Meditation does something else in addition, though.
The silence opens up our senses.
The combination of higher levels of sensitivity, reduced inner babble, the release of endorphins in the brain, all of that makes meditation something special.

When I look back, I think meditation was very important in my life so far.

So without “rating” meditation how can I put this?
Meditation is not overrated, but everything else is!

buddhajunkie

the basic wisdom i am referring to is things like the buddha's mundane teachings, especially about how to conduct the various social relationships
..

instead of looking at the problems of the world with meditative unconditional awareness, we look up the world clearly understanding its problems

this mundane wisdom we cannot obtain from meditation, unless our mind develops the divine eye (special powers)

I still have to disagree here.

Perhaps I have special powers, but I am much more sensitive/ethical in my conduct with other people specifically because of the sensitivity I cultivated during meditation. I think other people can respond in the same way.

Why couldn't they?