Is the mind a non-extended and non-physical substance?

DaltheJigsaw

Is the mind a non-extended and non-physical substance?

Vajraheart

Yes. Or you could say it's potential extends... It can be refined, trapped in gross density, even manifest the jhana of infinite nothingness and dwell there for eons. The mind can realize infinite potentiality, so thereby it is.

Daozen

I don't know what you mean by non-extended. If you explain, perhaps i can try to answer.

As for non-physical? Well, it depends on your particular definition of mind, but according to my definition ... no. The mind is a function of physical processes, particularly the nervous system. I think of it as the 'higher order' of the underlying biological system, although 'higher' is perhaps a misleading word. Another way of saying it, is that the mind 'emerges' from the physical system.

I should say this is my opinion, and not necessarily conventional buddhist teaching.

formermonkJohn

maybe the mind just inhabits the physical system, not born from it??

Jeffrey

mind and body interpenetrate

Jason

Is the mind a non-extended and non-physical substance?

Perhaps, or perhaps what we call mind and matter is ultimately groups or structures of events arising from a substance that's neither mental nor material, but in between the two a la neutral monism.

Roger

maybe the mind just inhabits the physical system, not born from it??

Gotta go with that. :thumbsup: Speaking like I know (joking), a little piece of mind jumps aboard a fertilized egg and gets stuck in there as it metabolizes for 80+ years.

Oh! The fertilized egg? What does that have to do with anything? Not much! The FE is the selfish genes (genetic material on this whatever it is..., a biological planet) doing their stupendous thing: surviving and replicating for billions and billions of years.

How does FE and mind and everything else fit together? No particular way except extremely beyond our ability to comprehend since were stuck in these bodies for about 80 years or fewer.

There are lots of things going on.

Trouble is humans tend to mistakenly believe:

1. it can be at least dimly understood

2. it is centered around them and

3. all those processes (physical, immaterial and other) are somehow linked and aimed at a coordinated higher purpose.

The joke is on us because it's HUUUUUUUGE and it's NOT even 0.00000001% accessible to us as we humans are currently manifested.

Makes sense to me. LOL!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Daozen

Is the mind a non-extended and non-physical substance?

Perhaps, or perhaps what we call mind and matter is ultimately groups or structures of events arising from a substance that's neither mental nor material, but in between the two a la neutral monism.

I don't think it matters which 'monism' you choose - be it mental/idealistic, materialistic, or 'neutral' (a word i am always suspicious of - there are very few truly neutral things in this world) - as long as you understand that everything is ultimately interconnected then i believe we are all on the same Buddhist page. The rest is semantics.

Namaste

formermonkJohn

i mean if the mind is the driver, and the body is the car(for life),then the brain is like a machine to translate the mind into being, at the end of life we look for another car, i know i'm talking off the top of my head here, but i feel consciousness is the mind, and the brain and body are a bunch of physical processes that translate that consciousness into action, or something like that, maybe we'd have to perform a literal brain transplant to find out!!(that last part was a joke)

Daozen

@formermonkjohn: i think you're still thinking about zen driving

In your analogy, i think the brain is part of the car, as the brain is part of the body, yes? Maybe it's the onboard computer.

The only prob with the 'mind as driver' idea is that, when we look for the 'centre' of the mind, some kind of controlling area (i believe the fancy term used is 'homunculus') ... it can't be found. So the mind seems to work more like a decentralised network full of feedback loops, rather than a hierarchial structure.

formermonkJohn

yes thats what i meant, the car representing the brain(perhaps the engine) and the body, the mind being free of the body (sorta)represented by the driver, But remember this driver is kinda locked in this car unless one has an out of body dream, the driver leaves the car, travels and gets in another car, as at death etc, its a kinda vague analogy, needs some development

DaltheJigsaw

I don't know what you mean by non-extended. If you explain, perhaps i can try to answer.

As for non-physical? Well, it depends on your particular definition of mind, but according to my definition ... no. The mind is a function of physical processes, particularly the nervous system. I think of it as the 'higher order' of the underlying biological system, although 'higher' is perhaps a misleading word. Another way of saying it, is that the mind 'emerges' from the physical system.

I should say this is my opinion, and not necessarily conventional buddhist teaching.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/non+extended

Cloud

The brain is form.

The mind is feelings, perceptions, consciousness, and thoughts; arisen dependent upon conditions (which include the functioning of the brain).

In short, "mind" is "experience" itself. It has no more substance than time.

Namaste

Jeffrey

Only in the same sense that form has no substance. Time could be relative positions of a pendulum swinging. It is still insubstial appearance/emptiness.

Daozen

@LeonBasin - your dictionary links to the 'normal' definition of non-extended, which is not what i assumed you meant. i thought you must be using it in some more technical sense, perhaps as a term from philosophy of mind which i was not familiar with. if so, i'm still not clear what you mean.

if you are simply using it in the normal sense, then i must answer 'no'. like everything else in the cosmos, mind is intrinsically connected to its surroundings, but to the extent that mind is something that can be discreetly labelled, then no, it is not 'extended' IMO.

seeker242

What is "the mind"?

rainbowwarrior

we are guests in a house. and just like all guests eventually leave, so we too have to leave.

MellowViper

I think they're two sides of the same coin

MellowViper

What is "the mind"?

The word generally refers to the phenomenon of perception.

seeker242

It seems to me that Buddhism teaches that the mind has no "substance". If it has no substance, then the substance of it can not be located in any place. It can't be extended or non-extended nor physical or non-physical.

Jason

It seems to me that Buddhism teaches that the mind has no "substance". If it has no substance, then the substance of it can not be located in any place. It can't be extended or non-extended nor physical or non-physical.

I agree. I see a great deal of similarity between the Buddha and Hume in this regard. Both rejected the idea of mental substance in favour of what Hume called association of ideas and bundle of perceptions, and what the Buddha called heaps (khandha).

As Bertrand Russell summerizes Hume's empiricism, "Ideas of unperceived things or occurrences can always be defined in terms of perceived things or occurrences, and therefore, by substituting the definition for the term defined, we can always state that we know empirically without introducing any unperceived things or occurrences." Thus, "all psychological knowledge can be stated without introducing the 'Self'. Further, the 'Self', as definied can be nothing but a bundle of perceptions, not a new simple 'thing'" (History of Western Philosophy, 603).

compassionate_warrior

Studies (which, unfortunately, I'm not able to cite) have shown that mind has non-local qualities, i.e. it extends beyond the body and can affect other minds.

Mystification

Mind, non-physical, is inseparable from the physical. Call it dependent origination. Mind gives rise to physicality, which gives rise to mind.