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"It seems you are saying you are more enlightened than beings like Longchenpa, Nagarjuna, Milarepa.. etc. etc. "
You are forgetting that these people are just as meaningless to Theravadins as the Theravada teachers who have been quoted are to you !
They are not meaningless. They have much wisdom. Though they too, in my opinion should be more open to the possibility of previous existences of their personal mind stream.
Though indeed, this is not the main concern of the Buddha. There are plenty of people who have past life experiences who are quite unwise.
DD due to his interpretation of scripture does not believe in rebirth. Vajra had an experience that she believes is a memory of rebirth. Scripture is disputed neverending. Vajras experience is called crytomemory or whatever. So and so is prideful or closed or open minded.
This is going nowhere but it is better than waiting for the sunrise with no one to talk to
yes, I was a Tibetan Monk. Other realms are included through.
I am still not all that enlightened. I recall having been more enlightened in some previous lives, and less so.
To me, your understanding is different from mine.
(1) My understanding is recollecting past existences is NOT considered to be an enlightened state in Buddhism.
(2) Buddhism is about freeing the mind from assumptions of "I was".
Now I am beginning to understand why we struggle to communicate with eachother.
All the best
I certainly "was" in a relative sense in previous lives and other realms, just as I was, in a relative sense existing yesterday as an effect of endless causes and conditions empty of inherent existence.
Like I said before, you seem to equate emptiness with non-existence?
If your mind believes "you" were in Toledo, then yes. Merely, mind-body were in Toledo. But to communicate as you did is fine. This is speaking according to acceptable conventions.
DD due to his interpretation of scripture does not believe in rebirth. Vajra had an experience that she believes is a memory of rebirth. Scripture is disputed neverending. Vajras experience is called crytomemory or whatever. So and so is prideful or closed or open minded.
This is going nowhere but it is better than waiting for the sunrise with no one to talk to
I certainly "was" in a relative sense in previous lives and other realms, just as I was, in a relative sense existing yesterday as an effect of endless causes and conditions empty of inherent existence.
OK. So your mind has not only attained a supernormal state but you are also declaring supramundane enlightenment. Whoa! Like, that's heavy.
Dhamadatu she is only saying in a relative sense she remembers past experiences...That is pointing to a conventional reality. She is not saying that a permanent non-compound non-suffering self was in a past life.
I certainly "was" in a relative sense in previous lives and other realms, just as I was, in a relative sense existing yesterday as an effect of endless causes and conditions empty of inherent existence.
OK. So your mind has not only attained a supernormal state but you are also declaring supramundane enlightenment. Whoa!
:bowdown:
LOL! Wow... to take what I say and twist it into tooth fairy stories and claims of enlightenment? Hmmm. You should read what I've written and not read into it so much.
"I certainly "was" in a relative sense in previous lives and other realms, just as I was, in a relative sense existing yesterday as an effect of endless causes and conditions empty of inherent existence."
DD: "OK. So your mind has not only attained a supernormal state but you are also declaring supramundane enlightenment. Whoa!"
I don't see the connection between Vajras statement and your reaction DD
Perhaps you think that she says she is empty of inherent existence is declaration of supramamundane enlightenment?
In the mahayana we abide by prajnaparamita..
The Prajna Paramita Sutra Translated by Shunryu Suzuki
The following chant of the Prajna Paramita Sutra, translated by Shunryu Suzuki, was chanted by Allen Ginsberg in the CD-ROM Haight-Ashbury in the Sixties:
MA KA HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA SHIN GYO
Great Prajna Paramita Sutra
KAN JI ZAI BO SATSU GYO JIN HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA JI SHO KEN GO
Avalokitesvara bodhisattva practice deep prajna paramita when perceive five
UN KAI KU DO ISSAI KU YAKU
skandas all empty. relieve every suffering.
SHA RI SHI SHIKI FU I KU KU FU I SHIKI SHIKI
Sariputra, form not different (from) emptiness. Emptiness not different (from) form. Form
SOKU ZE KU KU SOKU ZE SHIKE JU SO GYO SHIKI YAKU
is the emptiness. Emptiness is the form. Sensation, thought, active substance, consciousness, also
BU NYO ZE
like this.
SHA RI SHI ZE SHO HO KU SO FU SHO FU METSU FU KU FU JO
Sariputra, this everything original character; not born, not annihilated not tainted, not pure,
FU ZO FU GEN ZE KO KU CHU MU SHIKI MU JU SO GYO
(does) not increase, (does) not decrease. Therefore in emptiness no form, no sensation, thought, active substance,
SHIKI MU GEN NI BI ZETS SHIN NI MU SHIKI SHO KO MI SOKU HO MU GEN
consciousness. No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; no color, sound, smell, taste, touch, object; no eye,
KAI NAI SHI MU I SHIKI KAI MU MU MYO YAKU MU MU MYO
world of eyes until we come to also no world of consciousness; no ignorance, also no ignorance
JIN NAI SHI MU RO SHI YAKU MU RO SHI JIN MU KU SHU
annihilation, until we come to no old age, death, also no old age, death, also no old age, death, annhilation of no suffering, cause of suffering,
METSU DO MU CHI YAKU MU TOKU I MU SHO TOK KO BO DAI SAT TA E
nirvana, path; no wisdom, also no attainment because of no attainment. Bodhisattva depends on
HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA KO SHIN MU KE GE MU KE GE KO MU U KU FU ON RI
prajna paramita because mind no obstacle. Because of no obstacle no exist fear; go beyond
I SSAI TEN DO MU SO KU GYO NE HAN SAN ZE SHO BUTSU E HAN
all (topsy-turvey views) attain Nirvana. Past, present and future every Buddha depend on prajna
NYA HA RA MIT TA KO TOKU A NOKU TA RA SAN MYAKU SAN BO DAI
Sutta's are hurting my eyes again and it is even getting a bit personal.. We are discussing the truth here (whatever it is), totally absurd to get personal over that.
I recommend everybody (especially the skeptics) to watch the video below and read some of Ian Stevensons work and make your own conclusion. Not only do Buddhist believe in rebirth, so do Hindus, ancient Greek, some Muslim and Christian traditions, native Americans, Eskimo's etc. There has to be a reason for this widespread believe in such a phenomenon.
And until, say a few hundred years ago, all around the globe, if people didn't believe in rebirth, they believed in God and heaven or something. This nihilism view of there being nothing after this life is something that came only in recently in history. It came in the time our thinking minds took over even more control of ourselves.
So until one finds the answers inside of oneself, just keep reasonable doubt to both sides of the equation.
Sutta's are hurting my eyes again and it is even getting a bit personal.. We are discussing the truth here (whatever it is), totally absurd to get personal over that.
I recommend everybody (especially the skeptics) to watch the video below and read some of Ian Stevensons work and make your own conclusion. Not only do Buddhist believe in rebirth, so do Hindus, ancient Greek, some Muslim and Christian traditions, native Americans, Eskimo's etc. There has to be a reason for this widespread believe in such a phenomenon.
And until, say a few hundred years ago, all around the globe, if people didn't believe in rebirth, they believed in God and heaven or something. This nihilism view of there being nothing after this life is something that came only in recently in history. It came in the time our thinking minds took over even more control of ourselves.
So until one finds the answers inside of oneself, just keep reasonable doubt to both sides of the equation.
Sabre :vimp:
This is awesome! So Ajhan Brahm does indeed believe in reincarnation. I really like the guy... a good feeling from him.
I've also studied Ian Stevenson's research, and It's amazing.
Even the first major Christian scholar named Origen (185-254) believed in reincarnation.
Mahayana teaches that because an Arhat does not attain liberation for the sake of others, at the time of death, due to not having manifested conditions for enlightened re-becoming for the sake of others, they must be awoken from their experience of peaceful seeming nothingness in order to traverse the Bodhisatva path.
These kinds of arguments are terribly ironic. Belief in rebirth or anything else doesn't actually come up in the practice, except as an object of attachment to be released.
Ajahn Brahm is a legend and was taught by an even bigger legend. But yea, lets not get personal, rebirth topics tend to swing that way, let go of your ego people. The ego is the cause of every war, every criminal act and every unskillful act. KILL YOUR EGO!!!
These kinds of arguments are terribly ironic. Belief in rebirth or anything else doesn't actually come up in the practice, except as an object of attachment to be released.
Experience of rebirth is different than belief and letting go of the experience is far deeper than letting go of a blind belief without experience.
The experience also reveals more deeply the nature of "things" as well as the causes of ones suffering being inter-dependent on a multi-dimensional level to a greater and deeper degree.
"No ontological essence?" So you've been arguing about "ontological superficialities?" Sounds like a good use of your time. (Back to "These kinds of arguments are terribly ironic.")
"No ontological essence?" So you've been arguing about "ontological superficialities?" Sounds like a good use of your time. (Back to "These kinds of arguments are terribly ironic.")
Ontological essence means static background. If you read madhyamaka, you see that there is no such static background, or ontological essence of being. The only permanent is impermanence. Everything is superficial, and that's it's freedom.
Comming from you I will take that as a sign that I am on the right path.
The majority of the suttas do not mention rebirth. Further, the Buddha never mentioned rebirth as one of his core (heartwood) teachings. Of himself, the Buddha said he teaches only two things, namely, suffering & the end of suffering. Your accusations against my good self are the very same as were made against the Buddha himself. Indeed. You have much work to do.
It would be nice, dear boy or girl, if you could actually make a serious argument that is relevant and to the point, unlike the above blah.
I just want to correct my standing. I think that believing in rebirth or not caring about it or accepting it as a possiblity are the choices a Buddhist has.
Totally denying rebirth is not an option for a Buddhist (or indeed any rational person)
These kinds of arguments are terribly ironic. Belief in rebirth or anything else doesn't actually come up in the practice, except as an object of attachment to be released.
One silently wonders why you hang around these kinds of discussions if rebirth is only an object to be released? :banghead:
One silently wonders why you hang around these kinds of discussions if rebirth is only an object to be released? :banghead:
It's the attachment to the belief (one way or the other) which gets released through practice, not rebirth itself. Not sure what release of rebirth would look like. The irony is in the attachment to the beliefs reflected in an argument about Buddhist cosmology, when Buddhist practice (the core of the Buddha's teaching) would bring an end to that attachment. The purpose in pointing out the irony is to facilitate release of the attachment.
Hi There fivebells! How you doing?
I'm very confused by your choice to follow a dismissive rejection of my very participation in the discourse with a friendly gesture like this. What is your purpose?
I was more referring to the pride that comes with degrading someone else's experience through derogatory statements.
Possibly, more accurately stated as: "Pointing out one's experiences do not conform with the essense of Buddhism in relation to what enlightenment & liberation are".
Experience of rebirth is different than belief and letting go of the experience is far deeper than letting go of a blind belief without experience.
Five Bells
Vajra's mind still does not realise it is merely experiencing mental formations.
Vajra's mind is still construeing 'self' from the mental formations it is experiencing.
The Buddha taught a meditator that experiences their 'past abodes' merely experiences form, feeling, perception, mental formations &/or consciousness.
Bhikkhus, any group of Samanas or Brahmins when recollecting pubbenivasa (previous dwellings), naturally recollect such previous dwellings in diverse numbers; in doing so, all of those Samanas and Brahmins recollect the five upadana-khandhas or any one of the five upadana-khandhas. What are these five? The five are …
Bhikkhus, when they recollect, they naturally recollect rupa (form) as "in the distant past we had a rupa like this."
Bhikkhus, when they recollect, they naturally recollect vedana (feeling) as "in the distant past we had vedana like this."
Bhikkhus, when they recollect, they naturally recollect sanya (recognition, perception) as "in the distant past we had sanya like this."
Bhikkhus, when they recollect, they naturally recollect sankhara (concocting, thinking, emotions) as "in the distant past we had sankhara like this."
Bhikkhus, when they recollect, they naturally recollect vinyana as "in the distant past we had a vinyana like this."
At Savatthi. "Monks, any priests or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past lives all recollect the five clinging-aggregates, or one among them. Which five?
When recollecting, 'I was one with such a form in the past,' one is recollecting just form.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a feeling in the past,' one is recollecting just feeling.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a perception in the past,' one is recollecting just perception.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such mental fabrications in the past,' one is recollecting just mental fabrications.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a consciousness in the past,' one is recollecting just consciousness.
As for "boys & girls", the Buddha described them as follows:
Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them.
Comments
Though indeed, this is not the main concern of the Buddha. There are plenty of people who have past life experiences who are quite unwise.
(1) My understanding is recollecting past existences is NOT considered to be an enlightened state in Buddhism.
(2) Buddhism is about freeing the mind from assumptions of "I was".
Now my mind is beginning to understand why we struggle to communicate with eachother.
All the best
DD due to his interpretation of scripture does not believe in rebirth. Vajra had an experience that she believes is a memory of rebirth. Scripture is disputed neverending. Vajras experience is called crytomemory or whatever. So and so is prideful or closed or open minded.
This is going nowhere but it is better than waiting for the sunrise with no one to talk to
.
"Should a seeker not find a companion who is better or equal, let him resolutely pursue a solitary course..."(Dhammapada)
:coffee:
So is it incorrect for me to say I was in Toledo, Ohio last month?
Like I said before, you seem to equate emptiness with non-existence?
:bowdown:
"I certainly "was" in a relative sense in previous lives and other realms, just as I was, in a relative sense existing yesterday as an effect of endless causes and conditions empty of inherent existence."
DD:
"OK. So your mind has not only attained a supernormal state but you are also declaring supramundane enlightenment. Whoa!"
I don't see the connection between Vajras statement and your reaction DD
Anyway. My mind is over this.
May all beings be happy.
:wave:
In the mahayana we abide by prajnaparamita..
The Prajna Paramita Sutra Translated by Shunryu Suzuki
The following chant of the Prajna Paramita Sutra, translated by Shunryu Suzuki, was chanted by Allen Ginsberg in the CD-ROM Haight-Ashbury in the Sixties:
MA KA HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA SHIN GYO
Great Prajna Paramita Sutra
KAN JI ZAI BO SATSU GYO JIN HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA JI SHO KEN GO
Avalokitesvara bodhisattva practice deep prajna paramita when perceive five
UN KAI KU DO ISSAI KU YAKU
skandas all empty. relieve every suffering.
SHA RI SHI SHIKI FU I KU KU FU I SHIKI SHIKI
Sariputra, form not different (from) emptiness. Emptiness not different (from) form. Form
SOKU ZE KU KU SOKU ZE SHIKE JU SO GYO SHIKI YAKU
is the emptiness. Emptiness is the form. Sensation, thought, active substance, consciousness, also
BU NYO ZE
like this.
SHA RI SHI ZE SHO HO KU SO FU SHO FU METSU FU KU FU JO
Sariputra, this everything original character; not born, not annihilated not tainted, not pure,
FU ZO FU GEN ZE KO KU CHU MU SHIKI MU JU SO GYO
(does) not increase, (does) not decrease. Therefore in emptiness no form, no sensation, thought, active substance,
SHIKI MU GEN NI BI ZETS SHIN NI MU SHIKI SHO KO MI SOKU HO MU GEN
consciousness. No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; no color, sound, smell, taste, touch, object; no eye,
KAI NAI SHI MU I SHIKI KAI MU MU MYO YAKU MU MU MYO
world of eyes until we come to also no world of consciousness; no ignorance, also no ignorance
JIN NAI SHI MU RO SHI YAKU MU RO SHI JIN MU KU SHU
annihilation, until we come to no old age, death, also no old age, death, also no old age, death, annhilation of no suffering, cause of suffering,
METSU DO MU CHI YAKU MU TOKU I MU SHO TOK KO BO DAI SAT TA E
nirvana, path; no wisdom, also no attainment because of no attainment. Bodhisattva depends on
HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA KO SHIN MU KE GE MU KE GE KO MU U KU FU ON RI
prajna paramita because mind no obstacle. Because of no obstacle no exist fear; go beyond
I SSAI TEN DO MU SO KU GYO NE HAN SAN ZE SHO BUTSU E HAN
all (topsy-turvey views) attain Nirvana. Past, present and future every Buddha depend on prajna
NYA HA RA MIT TA KO TOKU A NOKU TA RA SAN MYAKU SAN BO DAI
paramita therefore attain supreme, perfect, enlightenment.
KO CHI HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA ZE DAI JIN SHU ZE DAI MYO SHU
Therefore I know Prajna paramita (is) the great holy mantram, the great untainted mantram,
ZE MU JO SHU ZE MU TO DO SHU NO JO IS SAI KU SHIN JITSU FU KO
the supreme mantram, the incomparable mantram. Is capable of assuaging all suffering. True not false.
KO SETSU HAN NYA HA PA MIT TA SHU SOKU SETSU SHU WATSU
Therefore he proclaimed Prajna paramita mantram and proclaimed mantram says
GYA TE GYA TE HA RA GYA TE HA RA SO GYA TE BO DHI SO WA KA
gone, gone, to the other shore gone, reach (go) enlightenment accomplish.
HAN NYA SHIN GYO
NEGA WA KU WA KO NO KU DO KU O MOTTE A MA NE KU ISSAI NI OYO
What we pray, this merit with universally all existence Pervade,
BO SHI WARE RA TO SHU JO TO MI NA TO MO NI BUTSUDO O JYO ZEN KO TO
we and sentient being all with Buddhism achieve
this (What I pray is that this merit pervade universally and we Buddhists and all sentient beings achieve
Buddhism.)
JI HO SAN SHI I SHI HU SHI SON BU SA MO KO SA
Ten directions past, present and future all Buddhas The world honoured one. Bodhisattva, great Bodhisattva,
MO KO HO JA HO RO MI
great Prajna-paramita.
Photo of Allen Ginsberg Copyright © 1995 Jeffrey Blankfort. Image from the CD-ROM "Haight-Ashbury in the Sixties".
Time to leave the internet realm now and attend to offline life.
.
may we have happiness and the cause of happiness
may we avoid suffering and the cause of suffering
may we all be 'well read'
there are many reincarnation threads i do not post on
this thread was started by a non-rebirther, so if I am not here, who will offer the alternative view to support the opening post?
kind regards
I recommend everybody (especially the skeptics) to watch the video below and read some of Ian Stevensons work and make your own conclusion. Not only do Buddhist believe in rebirth, so do Hindus, ancient Greek, some Muslim and Christian traditions, native Americans, Eskimo's etc. There has to be a reason for this widespread believe in such a phenomenon.
http://www.youtube.com/user/BuddhistSocietyWA#p/search/3/htQ12Z2MV0Q
And until, say a few hundred years ago, all around the globe, if people didn't believe in rebirth, they believed in God and heaven or something. This nihilism view of there being nothing after this life is something that came only in recently in history. It came in the time our thinking minds took over even more control of ourselves.
So until one finds the answers inside of oneself, just keep reasonable doubt to both sides of the equation.
Sabre :vimp:
I've also studied Ian Stevenson's research, and It's amazing.
Even the first major Christian scholar named Origen (185-254) believed in reincarnation.
The experience also reveals more deeply the nature of "things" as well as the causes of ones suffering being inter-dependent on a multi-dimensional level to a greater and deeper degree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Consciousnesses
I love your link by the way.
Ontological essence means static background. If you read madhyamaka, you see that there is no such static background, or ontological essence of being. The only permanent is impermanence. Everything is superficial, and that's it's freedom.
I just want to correct my standing. I think that believing in rebirth or not caring about it or accepting it as a possiblity are the choices a Buddhist has.
Totally denying rebirth is not an option for a Buddhist (or indeed any rational person)
All the best and take care now.
Hi There fivebells! How you doing?
Vajra's mind still does not realise it is merely experiencing mental formations.
Vajra's mind is still construeing 'self' from the mental formations it is experiencing.
The Buddha taught a meditator that experiences their 'past abodes' merely experiences form, feeling, perception, mental formations &/or consciousness.
in actuality, Ajahn Brahm does not exactly teach the same as Ajahn Chah. Please be careful here to not misrepresent Ajahn Chah.
It is best to study their respective teachings before we comment.
Ajahn Brahm teaches in his way. Ajahn Chah taught in his way.
They are very much different when it comes to interpretation of core doctrines such as Dependent Origination.
Kind regards
DD
The suttas state stream-enters are such due to taking refuge in impermanence (see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.003.than.html) and arahants are such due to fully realising impermanence (see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html).
As for "boys & girls", the Buddha described them as follows:
Possibly, the time for a little personal reflection on what taking refuge means for us.
:-/