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Hi ya all. I was just passing by and I saw my good friend DD is back on a thread with my favorite subject so I could not resist dropping a bomb... :rolleyes:
According to scripture (sorry Sabre) The Buddha did say that belief that there is such a thing as rebirth is Right View. So if one does not believe in Rebirth or at least in the possibility of it, is one then not, per definition, a flawed Buddhist?
I meant to say that people who want to believe in rebirth just so that they can live forever, might have a wrong view and I personally think that could hold them down. Like the kind or rebirth or reincarnation as taught in Hinduism, that there is eternal life. I agree that I did not get this point across very well because I just combined it into "wanting there to be more than this". Of course, you have to be open for the possibility of nirvana, that there can be something less than this.
The most important thing is to be open to different views. I used to have a firm disbelieve in rebirth and ghostly things and such, but I decided to be a bit more open to it. Some insights totally took all doubt away and now I'm convinced about rebirth. So it is not important to believe in rebirth, but it is important not to reject the possibility (for example because there is no scientific proof, a view I once held). And it is also equally important to accept the possibility that it will one day end.
A flawed Buddhist doesn't exist, with all respect, but that's a stupid statement that might hurt people. If some Buddhist decides, there is no rebirth and he/she really can't be open to it, fine, wonderful. Still lovely to have them around. Wonderful to have someone to challenge my views.
What I know of gravity is an experience. If an apple fell out of a tree and I wasn't there then I don't know anything about it. If there is a video then that is not an apple falling out of a tree that is a video of an apple falling out of a tree.
I personally believe in rebirth, but for me it has nothing to do with this notion of living forever, firstly because you probably won't recall past lives and more importantly the constant process of being reborn is not being liberated is it, it's samsara.
Going back to what the Dalai lama said, if one disregards and or has doubt in any of the dharma (including rebirth) then it will become a hindrance to your path. IMHO, being blunt here, I would not consider myself a buddhist if I totally disregarded rebirth as a crucial oart of the teachings, I would consider myself as somebody who has taken parts of a religion to better my life. This is JUST my opinion
The Buddha did say that belief that there is such a thing as rebirth is Right View. So if one does not believe in Rebirth or at least in the possibility of it, is one then not, per definition, a flawed Buddhist.
Obviously, all that discussion did not create understanding of the teachings.
The Buddha said rebirth belief is certainly right view. However, a right view that does not side with liberation. It is right view tainted by the asava (mental pollution) and attachment.
One title of the Buddha is 'The Victorious One'. Why?
The Victorious One ended asava & attachment. The Victorious one was liberated.
The end of the asava is a synonym for Nirvana. Rebirth view cannot find Nirvana.
All the best
"And what is the right view that has effluents [asava], sides with merit & results in acquisitions [upadi]? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the others after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
According to scripture, if one does not believe in Rebirth or at least in the possibility of it, is one then not, per definition, a flawed Buddhist?
Definitely not. Allow us to read the scripture:
Monks, the ending of the fermentations [asava] is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see.
When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise and arisen fermentations increase.
This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
So if one does not believe in Rebirth or at least in the possibility of it, is one then not, per definition, a flawed Buddhist
If the mind takes refuge in rebirth view, this can bring some comfort.
However, each time the mind takes refuge in rebirth view, it is becoming (bhava).
The Buddha advised bhava is an asava (mental defilement; effluent). The Buddha advised the enlightened mind is free from bhava (becoming).
There are these three fermentations: the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. This is called fermentation.
This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed.
The Buddha said rebirth belief is certainly right view. However, a right view that does not side with liberation. It is right view tainted by the asava (mental pollution) and attachment.
One title of the Buddha is 'The Victorious One'. Why?
The Victorious One ended asava & attachment. The Victorious one was liberated.
The end of the asava is a synonym for Nirvana. Rebirth view cannot find Nirvana.
All the best
Hi DD,
According to the Parinibbana Sutta, the Buddha died through the 4th jhana, and this jhana is associated with the Peerless Deva realms. This doesn't mean he was a Deva as he transcended all that, but this is an active realm where one can teach from while being in a body free from the afflictions of lower realms. So, even though the Buddha transcended mental rebirth, activity still happens, there is no non-existence.
Do you think that Parinibbana is poof... non-existence, presto gonzo?
Obviously, all that discussion did not create understanding of the teachings.
Obviously you failed to make any sensical point whatsoever in "that" discussion. So excuse me for using my brain.
As for all the rest how much words you ever may choose to write here and the other suttas you choose to disregard, the simple fact remains that the Buddha acted and spoke as if he believed in rebirth.
So if the greatest Buddhist that we know of did that then perhaps we should at least not deny the possibility of rebirth being buddhists?
But I agree with Jeffry,DD and others here too. It is not a compulsory belief just as long as you do not deny it. Because THAT is truly nonsensical.
According to the Parinibbana Sutta, the Buddha died through the 4th jhana, and this jhana is associated with the Peerless Deva realms.
Hi Vajra
When the Buddha was dying, he was merely showing off. He was showing off that, despite his sickly physical condition, his mind still possessed complete mental mastery.
This accords with MN 12, which reports the Buddha said:
Sariputta...I am now old, aged, burdened with years, advanced in life, and come to the last stage...even if you have to carry me about on a bed, still there will be no change in the lucidity of the Tathagata's wisdom.
If you wish to discuss such irrelevent matters & obtain Theravada opinions about why the Buddha died in the fourth jhana, then starting a thread at www.dhammawheel.com may assist you.
But my opinion is, in Theravada, the fourth jhana is associated with the purity of mindfulness & equinimity. It is the one jhana of the eight jhanas that is fully suitable for full scale vipassana (insight) practise. The fourth jhana is the state which Prince Siddharta used to gain Buddhahood. The suttas describe:
There remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable & luminous.
To end, imo, the Buddha died in the fourth jhana because it is the state where wisdom or insight can function fully. Insight or wisdom is the Buddha field.
As for the rest of your post, it is for the birds.
As for the rest of your post, it is for the birds.
All the best
:mullet:
You're too sure of yourself. You should be more agnostic concerning rebirth, since you don't really know. You make derogatory statements concerning peoples belief in rebirth, revealing insecurity and over defensiveness. Since this is the case, you might like to lighten up on your inner attitude and be open to the possibility that you are wrong. Not because you are in fact wrong, but that your attitude is not revealing a lack of clinging, but in fact it shows how much you are clinging to this mistaken view.
You think Nibbana leads to non-existence?
The 31 planes of existence are a Theravada teaching.
The inescapable law of karma guarantees that each and every one of our actions — whether it be of body, speech, or mind — has consequences in line with the skillfulness or unskillfulness of that action. We can often witness this process firsthand in our own lives, even if the effects may not be immediately apparent.
But the Buddha also taught that our actions have effects that extend far beyond our present life, determining the quality of rebirth we can expect after death: act in wholesome, skillful ways and you are destined for a favorable rebirth; act in unwholesome, unskillful ways and an unpleasant rebirth awaits. Thus we coast for aeons through Samsara, propelled from one birth to the next by the quality of our choices and our actions.
The sutras describe thirty-one distinct "planes" or "realms" of existence into which beings can be reborn during this long wandering through samsara. These range from the extraordinarily dark, grim, and painful hell realms all the way up to the most sublime, refined, and exquisitely blissful heaven realms. Existence in every realm is impermanent; in Buddhist cosmology there is no eternal heaven or hell. Beings are born into a particular realm according to both their past karma and their karma at the moment of death. When the karmic force that propelled them to that realm is finally exhausted, they pass away, taking rebirth once again elsewhere according to their karma. And so the wearisome cycle continues.
As for all the rest how much words you ever may choose to write here and the other suttas you choose to disregard, the simple fact remains that the Buddha acted and spoke as if he believed in rebirth.
You have misrepresented the Buddha here. The majority of the suttas do not mention rebirth. Further, the Buddha never mentioned rebirth as one of his core (heartwood) teachings. Of himself, the Buddha said he teaches only two things, namely, suffering & the end of suffering. Your accusations against my good self are the very same as were made against the Buddha himself.
Indeed. You have much work to do.
All the best.
I been baselessly, vainly, falsely and wrongly accused by some ascetics and brahmans thus: 'A nihilist is the ascetic Gotama; He teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the non-being of an existing individual.'
What I teach now as before, O monks, is suffering and the cessation of suffering.
When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything...
That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering.
In the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering.
But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.
They are mental states that lead to actions then situations in this life as well as rebirth in realms that reflect that state of mind.
what happens after this life is just speculation.
Not at all. One can experience directly through meditation which can reveal truths beyond the body. It is possible to travel to these realms through meditation.
If one studies the Pali, there are at last five Pali words the translators refer to as 'rebirth'.
The essense of rebirth is karmic inheritance. Do good, get a good mental result. Do bad, get a bad mental result. Do the eightfold path fully, get a void (sunnata) mental result.
I believe 100% in karmic inheritance in relation to mental results.
Theravada has always taught literal rebirth of the mind into other realms of existence.
There are many Theravada teachers, Asian & Western monks, etc, who agree with me.
For example, the Buddha used the term 'animal talk' when referring to worldly speech.
The last suttas in the SN include the teaching that 'animals' can realise the 4NTs.
Allow me to quote the Supreme Patriarch of Thailand for your education, my dear.
:hiding:
His Holiness’ two books on heaven and hell are truly analytical view on the subject from a Buddhist point of view. As we are so familiar, in religious sphere, the concept of heaven and hell is a very prominent belief. In many cases, it becomes the goal of religious practice itself. On this very subject, His Holiness critically analyses that the very concept and belief of heaven and hell in Buddhism is a cultural influence of indigenous culture and belief.
He states: (I quote) ‘the subject of cosmology appeared in Buddhism is clearly can be seen that it is not ‘Buddhist teaching’ at all but an ancient geography. The concept and belief about it was included in Buddhist Canon merely because of strong influence of popular belief of the time. Later Commentaries further explain about heaven and hell in a greater detail distant itself from the original teaching of the Buddha. If Buddhism teaches such belief on heaven and hell it would not be Buddhism at all but an ancient geography. Buddha wouldn’t be the Buddha who delivered the Noble Truth and ‘timeless’ message for mankind.’ (p. 1) (end of the quote)
He then shows in his teaching that the concept of heaven and hell in Buddhism are in fact symbolic, representing the quality of mind and spirituality instead. One can be in heaven and hell in this very earth and life. No need to wait until one dies...*
* Copied from Sunday Dhamma Talk of 28th September 2008 by Ven. Dr. Anil Sakya. Read the full article here.
There are plenty of Suttas that talk about visitations from Devas of other realms who came to receive teachings from the Buddha.
The devas are merely human beings with psychic & supernormal powers.
Of course, there are also devas that do not have psychic power but have worldly power, like kings, politicians, etc.
The suttas are full of such descriptions.
:om:
Have it your way. But, Theravada has always taught that there are literally other realms of existence and Devas in these realms. You are in fact re-invention Theravada along with some Western Bikkus.
Theravada has always taught literal rebirth of the mind into other realms of existence.
There are many Theravada teachers, Asian & Western monks, etc, who agree with me.
For example, the Buddha used the term 'animal talk' when referring to worldly speech.
The last suttas in the SN include the teaching that 'animals' can realise the 4NTs.
Allow me to quote the Supreme Patriarch of Thailand for your education, my dear.
:hiding:
Well, that is fine and I don't agree with these limited interpretations, no matter if they are Western or Eastern. For me, it lacks insight and experience, revealing of a being trapped in the delusion of the 5 senses.
They are mental states that lead to actions then situations in this life as well as rebirth in realms that reflect that state of mind.
what happens after this life is just speculation.
Not at all. One can experience directly through meditation which can reveal truths beyond the body. It is possible to travel to these realms through meditation.
Umm, its also known as 'cryptomnesia' in many cases. Its easy to go off into fantasy la-la land and the 'realms' of the imagination.
Theravada accepts literal rebirth, until it got into the hands of Westerners.
Can I ask, are you Western? If so, were you a fundamentalist Christian before you turned to Buddhism?
I am a Westerner originally from San Francisco and no I was never Christian. My mother got into yoga and meditation long before I was conceived. I've been studying the worlds religions since I was 15 and have been having meditation experiences since before I started studying. I am now 35.
For me, it lacks insight and experience, revealing of a being trapped in the delusion of the 5 senses.
So, you are implying you are more enlightened than many famous Thai monks, such as the Supreme Patriarch, Ajahn Chah & Ajahn Buddhadasa?
Although you did not give a reason based in insight about why the Buddha died with 4th jhana, the impression I have gained is you declaring you are more enlightened than others.
All I can say is your posts point to a very vivid & fertile imagination.
Next, you will try to convince me the Tooth Fairy is one of the Devas of the Thirty-Three.
They are mental states that lead to actions then situations in this life as well as rebirth in realms that reflect that state of mind.
what happens after this life is just speculation.
Not at all. One can experience directly through meditation which can reveal truths beyond the body. It is possible to travel to these realms through meditation.
Umm, its also known as 'cryptomnesia' in many cases. Its easy to go off into fantasy la-la land and the 'realms' of the imagination.
We've talked about this. It is easy to project from outside the experience in order to justify ones own lack of it.
These experiences are neither cryptomnesia nor imagination. Having experienced both, I know the difference directly.
I am a Westerner originally from San Francisco and no I was never Christian. My mother got into yoga and meditation long before I was conceived.
Are you implying the consciousness of a deceased lama or Tara entered your mother's womb, thinking it was a spiritual vessel?
In your past life recollections, are you an ordinary person or are you a notable figure, like Helen of Troy or Joan of Arc?
More defensive projections? Not very flexible, are you?
There are many re-experiencing's... including animal and bird bodies, and ordinary beings, including ordinary monks of different traditions and just ordinary people. I don't recollect ever having been one of great fame and fortune even though yes, I was a Tibetan Monk. Other realms are included through.
I am still not all that enlightened. I recall having been more enlightened in some previous lives, and less so.
Seeing a past life directly is not like a normal memory as the mind must travel much deeper into impressions in more refined spaces of experience than the gross physical body.
It is more like time travel and a complete re-experiencing or immersion.
I don't think it was pride because you didn't want to talk about the tooth fairy. I think she is saying that you (flipancy of saying toothfairy) are pridefull of your view and won't see hers. Although I appear to be 'siding' with Vajra I don't think that helpful of her to call you prideful.
Comments
According to scripture (sorry Sabre) The Buddha did say that belief that there is such a thing as rebirth is Right View. So if one does not believe in Rebirth or at least in the possibility of it, is one then not, per definition, a flawed Buddhist?
/Whoosha
I meant to say that people who want to believe in rebirth just so that they can live forever, might have a wrong view and I personally think that could hold them down. Like the kind or rebirth or reincarnation as taught in Hinduism, that there is eternal life. I agree that I did not get this point across very well because I just combined it into "wanting there to be more than this".
The most important thing is to be open to different views. I used to have a firm disbelieve in rebirth and ghostly things and such, but I decided to be a bit more open to it. Some insights totally took all doubt away and now I'm convinced about rebirth. So it is not important to believe in rebirth, but it is important not to reject the possibility (for example because there is no scientific proof, a view I once held). And it is also equally important to accept the possibility that it will one day end.
A flawed Buddhist doesn't exist, with all respect, but that's a stupid statement that might hurt people.
Going back to what the Dalai lama said, if one disregards and or has doubt in any of the dharma (including rebirth) then it will become a hindrance to your path. IMHO, being blunt here, I would not consider myself a buddhist if I totally disregarded rebirth as a crucial oart of the teachings, I would consider myself as somebody who has taken parts of a religion to better my life. This is JUST my opinion
The Buddha said rebirth belief is certainly right view. However, a right view that does not side with liberation. It is right view tainted by the asava (mental pollution) and attachment.
One title of the Buddha is 'The Victorious One'. Why?
The Victorious One ended asava & attachment. The Victorious one was liberated.
The end of the asava is a synonym for Nirvana. Rebirth view cannot find Nirvana.
All the best
However, each time the mind takes refuge in rebirth view, it is becoming (bhava).
The Buddha advised bhava is an asava (mental defilement; effluent). The Buddha advised the enlightened mind is free from bhava (becoming).
According to the Parinibbana Sutta, the Buddha died through the 4th jhana, and this jhana is associated with the Peerless Deva realms. This doesn't mean he was a Deva as he transcended all that, but this is an active realm where one can teach from while being in a body free from the afflictions of lower realms. So, even though the Buddha transcended mental rebirth, activity still happens, there is no non-existence.
Do you think that Parinibbana is poof... non-existence, presto gonzo?
I think rebirth wise you and I agree pretty well.
As for all the rest how much words you ever may choose to write here and the other suttas you choose to disregard, the simple fact remains that the Buddha acted and spoke as if he believed in rebirth.
So if the greatest Buddhist that we know of did that then perhaps we should at least not deny the possibility of rebirth being buddhists?
But I agree with Jeffry,DD and others here too. It is not a compulsory belief just as long as you do not deny it. Because THAT is truly nonsensical.
catch ya later, gotta work!
When the Buddha was dying, he was merely showing off. He was showing off that, despite his sickly physical condition, his mind still possessed complete mental mastery.
This accords with MN 12, which reports the Buddha said: If you wish to discuss such irrelevent matters & obtain Theravada opinions about why the Buddha died in the fourth jhana, then starting a thread at www.dhammawheel.com may assist you.
But my opinion is, in Theravada, the fourth jhana is associated with the purity of mindfulness & equinimity. It is the one jhana of the eight jhanas that is fully suitable for full scale vipassana (insight) practise. The fourth jhana is the state which Prince Siddharta used to gain Buddhahood. The suttas describe: To learn how the Buddha instructed some to use the fourth jhana, you may read this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html
To end, imo, the Buddha died in the fourth jhana because it is the state where wisdom or insight can function fully. Insight or wisdom is the Buddha field.
As for the rest of your post, it is for the birds.
All the best
:mullet:
You think Nibbana leads to non-existence?
The 31 planes of existence are a Theravada teaching.
The inescapable law of karma guarantees that each and every one of our actions — whether it be of body, speech, or mind — has consequences in line with the skillfulness or unskillfulness of that action. We can often witness this process firsthand in our own lives, even if the effects may not be immediately apparent.
But the Buddha also taught that our actions have effects that extend far beyond our present life, determining the quality of rebirth we can expect after death: act in wholesome, skillful ways and you are destined for a favorable rebirth; act in unwholesome, unskillful ways and an unpleasant rebirth awaits. Thus we coast for aeons through Samsara, propelled from one birth to the next by the quality of our choices and our actions.
The sutras describe thirty-one distinct "planes" or "realms" of existence into which beings can be reborn during this long wandering through samsara. These range from the extraordinarily dark, grim, and painful hell realms all the way up to the most sublime, refined, and exquisitely blissful heaven realms. Existence in every realm is impermanent; in Buddhist cosmology there is no eternal heaven or hell. Beings are born into a particular realm according to both their past karma and their karma at the moment of death. When the karmic force that propelled them to that realm is finally exhausted, they pass away, taking rebirth once again elsewhere according to their karma. And so the wearisome cycle continues.
"
To read more on this... go here.
http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/2008/07/thirty-one-planes-of-existence.html
Indeed. You have much work to do.
All the best.
The Buddha redefined the Brahmic planes as mental states, such as jhana.
The impression I am gaining is you are trying to redefine the jhanas & mental states as Brahmic planes.
Like you are trying to reinvent the wheel or re-assert the earth is flat.
:coffee:
.
It's clear you guys are in denial. Theravada accepts literal rebirth, until it got into the hands of Westerners.
It seems to me as if you are arguing whether the horns of a rooster are straight or bent
The essense of rebirth is karmic inheritance. Do good, get a good mental result. Do bad, get a bad mental result. Do the eightfold path fully, get a void (sunnata) mental result.
I believe 100% in karmic inheritance in relation to mental results.
Theravada has always taught literal rebirth of the mind into other realms of existence.
Of course, there are also devas that do not have psychic power but have worldly power, like kings, politicians, etc.
The suttas are full of such descriptions.
:om:
For example, the Buddha used the term 'animal talk' when referring to worldly speech.
The last suttas in the SN include the teaching that 'animals' can realise the 4NTs.
Allow me to quote the Supreme Patriarch of Thailand for your education, my dear.
:hiding:
Cryptomnesia is a mental labeling of someones experience propped up by the notion that it is scientific. It may or may not be true.
Although you did not give a reason based in insight about why the Buddha died with 4th jhana, the impression I have gained is you declaring you are more enlightened than others.
All I can say is your posts point to a very vivid & fertile imagination.
Next, you will try to convince me the Tooth Fairy is one of the Devas of the Thirty-Three.
All the best
These experiences are neither cryptomnesia nor imagination. Having experienced both, I know the difference directly.
In your past life recollections, are you an ordinary person or are you a notable figure, like Helen of Troy or Joan of Arc?
It seems you are saying you are more enlightened than beings like Longchenpa, Nagarjuna, Milarepa.. etc. etc. This kind of attitude is reflective of pride and clinging defensiveness, nothing more.
What seems to be lacking though, is the difference between an open and a closed mind!
However, as for Nagarjuna, I was not aware he taught extensively about reincarnation.
Pride? That I won't take in an interest in listening to you about the Tooth Fairy?
Pride is not the word dear.
:bowdown:
:-/
There are many re-experiencing's... including animal and bird bodies, and ordinary beings, including ordinary monks of different traditions and just ordinary people. I don't recollect ever having been one of great fame and fortune even though yes, I was a Tibetan Monk. Other realms are included through.
I am still not all that enlightened. I recall having been more enlightened in some previous lives, and less so.
Seeing a past life directly is not like a normal memory as the mind must travel much deeper into impressions in more refined spaces of experience than the gross physical body.
It is more like time travel and a complete re-experiencing or immersion.
You are forgetting that these people are just as meaningless to Theravadins as the Theravada teachers who have been quoted are to you !