Does Enlightenment Mean No Kids?

Dakini

One of our members made an interesting point on a thread recently; if one is Enlightened, one has no interest in reproducing. In theory, this, I assume, is because a) passing on one's genetic material is a somewhat ego-motivated affair, and b) Enlightenment means one is no longer motivated to go chasing after cheap thrills (sensual pleasure).

And yet, there are all those married lamas and zen monks out there, many of whom have kids. Our member speculated that his lama friend may have had children in order to raise the next generation of teachers/enlightened beings.

Are teachers really that different from the rest of us? Could it be that they have kids simply because they're human, like the rest of us? (Judging by the behavior of many of them, I'd have to vote for their being all too human.) Do we tend to have an unrealistic image of our dharma teachers? Why would they get married in the first place, let alone have kids, if they were truly enlightened? Does enlightenment really mean you're not interested in having a spouse and family? It did for the Buddha. Does this mean that the end result of enlightenment for the human race means...the eventual end of the human race (if everyone's celibate)?

SherabDorje

IMO teachers are only the vessels of Dharmic teachings, and one should not mistake the vessel for the contents. Trungpa Rinpoche has been mentioned a lot in this regard because his life was so "colorful".

IMO they are on the continuum of human beings pretty much like the rest of us. It would of course vary from teacher to teacher. It's even said that HHDL gets irritated with people sometimes.

If a truly enlightened being saw a necessity for creating progeny, then they would of course attempt to do so. Otherwise, IMO, the various teachers are human beings like the rest of us.

Talisman

I think this is a topic far too often discussed. The Buddhist sangha consists of male and female monks whose purpose it is to teach as well as preserve and propogate the teachings of the Buddha while living a life of pure simplicity in order to avoid any and all forms of worldy distraction. The Buddhist sangha also consists of male and female lay members who put into practice the lay precepts and perform their worldy lives in a way that is in harmony with the 8-fold path and that upholds a peacful and prosperous society.

In my opinion it would be ignorant, callous, and blind to propose that all men and women are destined and required to live the monk's life in order to attain peace and well-being. Any proper philosophy must incorporate the worldy day-to-day trials, aspirations, and affairs of lay people or else it simply remains the lofty pursuit of recluses and elitists trapped in ivory towers.

Ada_B

I was appalled once, on a Buddhist site, to read of a woman who left her three young children to go and be a nun on another continent. I read all the justifications for this (the Buddha left his family etc.) but all could think, as a mother myself, was those poor children left without a mother. Frankly, I thought it was selfish.

Raising a family can be the hardest path in the world. And children are unrelenting and sometimes harsh teachers, but if that is the path we have chosen (or that has been chosen for us) we are not going to find enlightenment by running away. As my lama, and several other teachers have said to me, this is my Path.

I have often felt like the character of Madison in the sci-fi comedy, 'Galaxy Quest', who has to repeat everything the computer says:

"I know it's a dumb job. It's stupid. But it's the only job I've got, so I'm going to do it!"

Not that raising my kids is a dumb job. Well, most of the time it isn't. But it is the only job I've got, so I am going to do it.

DaltheJigsaw

Bumpin'

Daozen

Buddha had kids. Yes he left them, but many of his lay followers also have had kids and acheived enlightenment.

Dakini

Buddha had kids. Yes he left them, but many of his lay followers also have had kids and acheived enlightenment.

Someone mentioned this elsewhere, Daozen. Could you give any references to this information? Who were these lay followers?

Dakini

I think this is a topic far too often discussed.

I've never heard of it before. I found it sort of fascinating.

Vincenzi

...well, it will be useful for all living beings, that humanity slows down the births.

Dakini

Yes, I agree. Humanity has trashed the planet, and we're running out of water, to mention just one scarce resource.

...well, it will be useful for all living beings, that humanity slows down the births.

DhammaDhatu

Do we tend to have an unrealistic image of our dharma teachers?

Speak for yourself, dear Dakini

My dhamma teachers do not have children

My dhamma teachers both embody & represent my aspirations

:om:

Dakini

I'm not speaking for myself, I'm asking questions. (note the punctuation at the end of the sentence you quoted.) I have such a realistic view of dharma teachers that some people, who tend to be more starry-eyed, get upset with me, lol.
You said on another thread that you knew a lama whom you considered to be pretty enlightened, and he has kids. I thought you also said somewhere that a lama you know routinely empowers Westerners to teach meditation who don't have much to recommend them in the ethics dept., and that the lama wasn't interested in that issue, either. (I don't participate in all the threads, but I watch a lot of them.)
Anyway, I was just asking some questions. But I take your implied point about chosing one's teachers carefully.

pegembara

The Buddha had a wife and a child but that was before he became enlightened. After full enlightenment marriage and kids are out of the question.

Dharma teachers doesn't have to be enlightened though.

Dazzle

Often people think that teachers are enlightened because of the nature of Guru Yoga in Tibetan Buddhism and being encouraged to regard one's teacher as a Buddha.

Teachers vary in different traditions and can be just like the rest of us or else appear to have some realisation when one is in conversation with them.
Its best to investigate carefully and talk to them offline! One can learn a lot from an inspirational teacher. Personally I prefer a teacher who is ordained and doesn't have children.

Ada_B

...well, it will be useful for all living beings, that humanity slows down the births.

It depends where you live. Here in UK we have something called the "Demographic time bomb" - the number of elderly is exceeding the number of young people who can earn the money and look after them. Our birthrate is falling, despite an upward blip for a couple of years when we had a lot of EU immigration (now decreasing as people go home due to no jobs).

Ada_B

In the Tibetan Kagyu tradition, some lamas are married and have kids, others are monks. Anyone can become enlightened.

Dazzle

It's also wise to ask oneself why there is sometimes so much squabbling and division between teachers of the same tradition over their practices, power structures and who should be at the top of the pecking order.

Is this a manifestation of enlightenment? Somehow I doubt it. Always investigate carefully and don't just believe everything you're told .

Roger

I'm seeing "selfish genes" at play (it's also a book ).

Mind takes a ride in this body and is certainly NOT in control. The genes have been OPERATING in this _biology_ for billions of earth years and they have their agenda. Activating hormones and other less apparent means they impel the exchange of genetic material and the resultant offspring to further the goals of genes. Genes want REPLICATION! Period!

Of course deep within this biological brain of ours exists the instincts to parent offspring in a dangerous, severe natural world. The love and compassion given and motivated by Infinite Mind in human form extends somehow to the goals of these genes too.

It's part of the _biology_ of human forms. Not much to do with the speck of Infinite Mind that jumped aboard the fertilized egg for 80 years.

Sounds weird? I'm just saying there's lots of stuff, processes going on. Lots of agendas and interests at play. :thumbsup:

No hope of understanding them outside of our limited human experience. One might _experience_ it but can't explain nor communicate it.

compassionate_warrior

It's also wise to ask oneself why there is sometimes so much squabbling and division between teachers of the same tradition over their practices, power structures and who should be at the top of the pecking order.

Is this a manifestation of enlightenment? Somehow I doubt it. Always investigate carefully and don't just believe everything you're told .

haha! great point, Dazzle, but then this might result in us writing off entire traditions or monastic systems! I think the existence of power structures, even in some monastic systems let alone in entire sects or schools, reinforces some very non-Buddhist values and behaviors. But this is perhaps a subject for another thread.

SherabDorje

haha! great point, Dazzle, but then this might result in us writing off entire traditions or monastic systems! I think the existence of power structures, even in some monastic systems let alone in entire sects or schools, reinforces some very non-Buddhist values and behaviors. But this is perhaps a subject for another thread.

If you're alluding to the possibility that some power structures or "monastic systems" are maintained by inheritance, yes, I think it's a subject for another thread.

compassionate_warrior

If you're alluding to the possibility that some power structures or "monastic systems" are maintained by inheritance, yes, I think it's a subject for another thread.

I'm not aware of inheritance playing a role. I was referring to the fact that the jockeying for power and connections that goes on in some of the monasteries and sects is far from Buddhistic. All those grasping egos!

taiyaki

before enlightenment carry wood and make fire, after enlightenment carry wood and make fire.

Dakini

...well, it will be useful for all living beings, that humanity slows down the births.

It depends where you live. Here in UK we have something called the "Demographic time bomb" - the number of elderly is exceeding the number of young people who can earn the money and look after them. Our birthrate is falling, despite an upward blip for a couple of years when we had a lot of EU immigration (now decreasing as people go home due to no jobs).

This is the North-South dilemma that the world faces right now. Overpopulation in the developing world, underpopulation in the developed world. Still, overall, the world is overpopulated, even if everyone were evenly spread out geographically.

Dakini

Often people think that teachers are enlightened because of the nature of Guru Yoga in Tibetan Buddhism and being encouraged to regard one's teacher as a Buddha.
Personally I prefer a teacher who is ordained and doesn't have children.

People also tend to idealize any teacher.
Fascinating that you'd prefer a teacher who doesn't have children. Why would that be? In the Orthodox Church, clergy that ministers to the gen'l public are expected to be married, so they can be in a better position to understand the issues facing their parrishioners, and be better able to advise them. Clergy serving in the monasteries are required to be celibate. Interesting system. It helps solve the problem of sexually needy clergy preying on their lay charges.

komm

lay buddhists should do wisely and see that there are thousands of wonderful children out there to be adopted if they desire a family. there are no children who are not of our own blood and flesh and family. which is why any buddhist should consider procreation as superfluous and practically heedless.

ravkes

logically speaking the world doesn't need anymore kids, you don't have to be enlightened to see that lol

Dakini

I'm with you guys 100% on that point. Anyone who wants kids can adopt.