Middle-eastern and Egyptian Revolutions

Joshua

Why the hell isn't the American press covering these amazing feats? It is inspirational, some of these places like Iran are terrible places to live under their sharian governments and fatwas. For the Iranian people to rise up is beyond belief and deserves an international applause.

Is the US afraid to give people inspiration? What happened to the free press? The world is changing, the world is in turmoil, and on American television all that matters is that some guy beat his wife in a trailer or whether the "economic crisis" is diminishing or not.

..

Israel and Iran are probably going to war. If Israel does then by extension the US is in official war. WWIII?

..

Iran bombs protesters.

..

The US has been trying to destroy Al Jazeera for a long time. We've bombed them at least twice that I know of after they politely gave us their coordinates when we asked. Wtf?

Daozen

Joshua -- not sure which 'American press' you are watching/reading, but there is certainly plenty of coverage of these events. Of course, as always, it pays to look for decent sources of news.

It is both exciting and scary. On the one hand, it's a spontaneous outburst of democracy. On the other, it does mean that a certain amount fo violence and chaos is about to happen, and that the region may become even less stable than it already was! Also, there are the fears that in some cases a dictator may be replaced by a fundamentalist Islamic regime (eg the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt).

Peace to all

ShiftPlusOne

Hmm, I see two possibilities for WWIII. The first one is Israel going after Iran or Syria (or they might change direction and go for another country in the region). The second option would be America provoking Russia by proxy (through Georgia et al).

As for Egypt, I think it's a bit too early to cheer. We should wait and see what comes of it. Might just be another Orange Revolution.

I think the media isn't covering it is because mainstream news is more about 'entertainment' than news. Over here in Australia we have a channel called SBS which actually covers world news. They often get things wrong, but at least they make an effort to cover these events.

I don't think Americans who would want revolution actually know what they want the outcome of that revolution to be. You have the Ron Paul crowd and the socialist crowd and both are extreme ends which aren't practical. The conditions in America are as good as they can be given the circumstances. I don't see anything good coming out of any sort of uprising (not to mention that the numbers just aren't there).

And I am done pretending to know what I am talking about...

Joshua

Why do you think Ron Paul is so extreme?

Vincenzi

there's no freedom of expression in USA; "truth is treason"

ShiftPlusOne

Disclaimer: some of this may come out harsher than intended... When I say 'you' I don't mean you in specific. When I say 'Americans', I don't mean all Americans.

Not much wrong with Ron Paul, it's the supporters which worry me. The attitude of labelling any sort of services which offer some sort of benefit as 'socialism' is just counter-productive. You pay so much in taxes, yet complain when some of it actually goes to help someone. It's fine when it goes to the military and invested in getting your sons and daughters slaughtered overseas, but when it covers medical expenses, it's socialism.

This guy says it best:

Joshua

Libyan protesters are being shot with:

ShiftPlusOne

Libyan protesters are being shot with:

Jesus!

Joshua

Those videos are brilliant.

I have a thread bitching that I can't see a doctor for my knee.

I hate my country.

Joshua

http://www.newser.com/story/112501/eqyptians-treat-wis-protesters-to-pizza.html

Isn't this amazing?

..

By the way, those .50 caliber bullets are intended for fighting jets and tanks, when fired at a human his body tends to separate in half.

..

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/02/20/libya-governments-should-demand-end-unlawful-killings

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/whats-happening-libya-explained

How many civilian casualties have there been if foreign journalists aren't allowed to cover the news?

..

My girlfriend tells me that the free press is so terrible that on Twitter there is an outcry for Arabic speakers to translate the massive outburst of Arabic tweets covering the revolution. At least for those whose internet and cell phones haven't been shut off like what happened to the Egyptians.

Joshua

On television today they called a Libyan who said that things are quite well, and no gun-shot fire can be heard. In reality, if you read Facebook there's anti-aircraft gun-fire everywhere, the prisons have been emptied to cause chaos on the civilians, and militiamen from Chad have been hired to cause havoc in the streets.

Libya is burning, and it just keeps getting worse.

Word now from Libyan expats, confirmed by al-Jazeera, is that Libyan Air Force jets are bombing groups of protesters. This after Libyan military forces unleash literally every other weapon they have, including assault rifles, mortars, artillery, and in a particularly sick if ineffective attempt to strike back, anti-tank and anti-air missiles. The entire country, including Tripoli, is in chaos. The entire Libyan UN delegation (among pretty much every Libyan diplomat outside the country) has essentially defected and is calling on the UN to make Libya a no-fly zone to "stop the genocide". Gaddafi has pretty definitely left the capitol, and may have left the country (Venezuela is denying that they offered asylum).

In response, al-Jazeera is being knocked off the air by Libyan intelligence. Ironically, they pinpointed the source of the interference down to the building.

It's becoming pretty clear that if Gaddafi's government is going to survive the week, it will do so only through the expedient of assembling piles of skulls in every town square. Sadly, this is clearly not beyond their will. It may be beyond their ability at this point, though.

Libyan society is very tribal. Ghadaffi plays the tribes off one another as a means to maintain power, and he maintains those tribal separations in the military.

You could very well see a civil war as the military fractures amongst tribal lines. Those tribes that feel that they could lose everything could very well fight. Others might side with protestors, especially if they hale from the same tribes.

And the other element in this are mercenaries. Since the military is splintered, Ghadaffi also heavily relies on mercenaries. Those guys might not have compunctions about gunning down Libyans, or they may feel that if they don't have a way out, they're going to line up against the wall anyway. And I imagine we're talking about African mercenaries and not Western mercs; guys that participated in shit like the Congo and have no qualms about gunning down women and children.

A lot of the really hard-core nasty stuff is being done by "foreign mercenaries", reportedly Africans who don't speak Arabic. And yeah, if they came from the Congo or Sierra Leone (both places Gaddafi has fucked with to their great detriment) these are the kinds of people who lop limbs off civilians for fun.

Originally Posted by Mahmoud Elgassier
21-Feb-2011: 16:30 GMT

As of this time, gunships are being used against protestors in Tripoli. over a million have come out today and they're being mowed down by over powered military, foreign child soldiers with no regard to human life, and gunships against people LITERALLY carrying nothing more than sticks and rocks.

This is not a diciplinary mission. this is not a crowd control measure. this is not an attempt to restore order. this is REVENGE by col. Ghaddafi against us who will no longer stand against his regime.

I implore you who read this, this is my only means of communicating to the outside world. mass social networks have been brought down. video uplink has been blocked. foreign news channels (e.g. jazeera) have been jammed by sattelite jammers from within libya (this is no damn joke, you can google all this!).

all we have is whatever limited network access to send out whats happening to the masses. this is a cry not for help, but to show the world that we are fighting against a corrupt regime and we are dying and we will not be silenced by them!!!!

all we ask is to spread the word. all I NEED are phone numbers [He got them.] for news agency hotlines (BBC, CNN, Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabeya, anything) where we can go live and show to all the truth of the events here.

I dont know what genius is in charge of comms here in Libya, but I THANK GOD ALMIGHTY that he's not the brightest bulb of the bunch.

somehow some communication is still circulating, AND thank god we have Al-Jazeera which is reporting on Libya almost on a 24-hour basis.

Right now, the civilians are in terror. Two military transports from a city called Sabha are reported to have loaded up with these African militias, expected to be heading here to Tripoli. Already some reports that these scum are terrorizing neighborhoods and everyone is setting camp.

other families, as well as mine, have gathered however many family members together and are all vigilant of any foot activity around our area. Its getting dark now, and we fear our time is close. we're only armed with whatever we can get our hands on, up against god-knows-what.

Originally Posted by Mahmoud Elgassier
21-Feb-2011: 19:45 GMT

Dear Friends,

The gunfire has not stopped for over 5 hours now. its very aggrivating to have a moment of complete silence, then have that shattered by constant barrage of bullets in the distance.

As it stands, my family and I are in our yards, just waiting for Ghadaffi's assassins to come after us. there will be no sleep tonight.

Some good news though:
1 - the whole east side of the country is in the control of the people. several military bases have come into the people's control and several generals are joining the fight with us.
2 - some military planes have decided to go AWOL and surrender everything in Malta (about 20 minute flight north of tripoli
3 - the generals in the east, as local sources have been able to tell, have assembled their platoons and are heading west
4 - almost all Libyan ambassadors have resigned in protest to the current onslaught
5 - The people in the affected areas are still resisting and fighting back. God help them all and every shot i hear tears my heart (here's another bullet aimed at my fellow man)

the bad news:
1 - the aid from the east will take a long time to reach tripoli (land distance approximately 1000 klicks)
2 - there are rumors that Ghadaffi has fled to Venezuela. yet his killers are still slaughtering us here.
3 - More and more people are dying every minute. This is proof that this attack is that of...God i dont even know if ethnic clensing is even the right term, but use that for the lack of a better one.

people are still fighting. people are still protecting. help, God Willing, is on the way. thank you all for the support, its warming to read them during this bitter cold.

...

Joshua

...

Originally Posted by Mahmoud Elgassier
21-Feb-2011: 23:30 GMT

Well folks, everything's been real quiet now for a while. Thank God its also raining. The cold/wet combo might have helped cool down some heads.

its getting pretty late in Libya (its about 1:30 AM here), so God-willing most if not all have went back to their homes.

we're still staying up, watching the news like crazy, and keeping in touch with family as much as possible.

Here's something very interesting: the international news agencies (i hate to be a plug whore but Al-Jazeera really came through with this) try and be unbiased and talk to both sides. especially for news of this magnitude.

what's funny is that every Libyan official that talks, COMPLETELY MAKES A FOOL OUT OF HIMSELF. "Dead people? what dead people? we're all one happy family eating bon bons". State TV is just as bad, people are being murdered outside and they're airing local concerts, people singing songs about how much they love Gadaffi, and showing 24-hour footage of people supporting him.

if you know your history, and you know your propaganda, then all i have to say is Soviet Russia. its so painful, you can't help but laugh

[source]

In my opinion they aren't covering this properly in the "press". Of course, perhaps our Libyans friends are playing a prank here? I know I feel like shit sitting here not having to worry while this man sits waiting for some African mercenaries who can't even understand his Arabic pleas to chop his children into bits with a machete.

DaltheJigsaw

Why the hell isn't the American press covering these amazing feats? It is inspirational, some of these places like Iran are terrible places to live under their sharian governments and fatwas. For the Iranian people to rise up is beyond belief and deserves an international applause.

Is the US afraid to give people inspiration? What happened to the free press? The world is changing, the world is in turmoil, and on American television all that matters is that some guy beat his wife in a trailer or whether the "economic crisis" is diminishing or not.

..

Israel and Iran are probably going to war. If Israel does then by extension the US is in official war. WWIII?

..

Iran bombs protesters.

..

The US has been trying to destroy Al Jazeera for a long time. We've bombed them at least twice that I know of after they politely gave us their coordinates when we asked. Wtf?

I agree, but it's about control/power/fear they do not want American people knowing what other countries are doing, then perhaps we will do the same thing?
Who knows...

DaltheJigsaw

Hmm, I see two possibilities for WWIII. The first one is Israel going after Iran or Syria (or they might change direction and go for another country in the region). The second option would be America provoking Russia by proxy (through Georgia et al).

As for Egypt, I think it's a bit too early to cheer. We should wait and see what comes of it. Might just be another Orange Revolution.

I think the media isn't covering it is because mainstream news is more about 'entertainment' than news. Over here in Australia we have a channel called SBS which actually covers world news. They often get things wrong, but at least they make an effort to cover these events.

I don't think Americans who would want revolution actually know what they want the outcome of that revolution to be. You have the Ron Paul crowd and the socialist crowd and both are extreme ends which aren't practical. The conditions in America are as good as they can be given the circumstances. I don't see anything good coming out of any sort of uprising (not to mention that the numbers just aren't there).

And I am done pretending to know what I am talking about...

Lol!
Well you at least got American news is entertainment and it truly is.

SherabDorje

There's plenty of coverage by the American media. NBC Nightly News, MSNBC.com, The Huffington Post- there is no lack of coverage. Most of what I watch seems very supportive of this movement, to the point that it's almost understandable why the authorities in the region partially accuse "foreign journalists" of fomenting the activities in question.

I have basic digital TV, not even cable, and I get all the news I need from the American media. That, together with a basic internet signal, provides me with plenty of good and sympathetic coverage of this situation.

Joshua

Are you telling me the news covers what I quoted? Granted Fox is the most corrupt but I know for a fact Fox in particular lied and said everything was peaches and cream, that the people were PRAISING Ghandaffi, now a lot of the jingoistic crowd believes this like my roommate's grandparents.

It infuriates me. It's common knowledge that the American press is not free, you must go online for your news.

SherabDorje

I have no f***ing idea about FOX. I just ignore them completely. The other media I mention do not appear to have covered it in the detail that you found on that other bulletin board, but I myself have found more than adequate coverage from the US media, especially the damnliberal stations I watch and sites I read.
Watch NBC Nightly News and/or MSNBC tonight. You'll see what I mean.

I must have missed that common knowledge of which you speak. NBC was pretty nasty to Egypt, i.e. supportive of the demonstrators, almost to the point that they would fall into Mubarak's accusations that foreign media was fomenting the uprising.

I'm a news junkie and I'm perfectly happy with what I see. You just need to know where to look.

zombiegirl

ShiftPlusone... you were right about that video, pretty awesome logic.

SherabDorje... fox news is a joke. confirmation bias at its best.

Joshua

MSNBC:







The second video does the best job, it almost captures the truth implicitly in the middle for around thirty seconds. As if to say that although the casualties are between 3-400 that everyone around has bullet wounds. Gaddafi's son said the country would flow with rivers of blood, and now denies allegations of even several hundred deaths. Bullshit.

I was wrong. I do wish though that the news would be a much better job at capturing the violence without being afraid to draw obvious conclusions.

SherabDorje

NBC's Richard Engel actually made it into eastern Libya today. He showed how the army had gone over to the side of the protestors in that area, giving them assault rifles, heavy machine guns, and maybe even rocket propelled grenades. He spoke with a source with the protestors and reported that they claim that they now hold about 30% of the country. I think the reason they don't directly show the violence is for audience purposes (they need to sanitize their newscasts a little bit for general consumption), and no news organization has been able to actually cover the situation directly, but I do believe that NBC showed a body of a shot man lying in the street.

Civil war in an oil-producing country. Gasoline prices rising to $4-maybe even $5 by summer? I think we may be looking at mass petroleum-conservation measures a lot sooner than a lot of people have thought.

dorje

I thought Rachel Maddow is doing an excellent job covering this issue.

SherabDorje

Bumping...

Joshua

I stopped paying attention to politics at the moment, it sucks without a PC.

Any good stories?

Cloud

Libya's going nuts, but in a good way. People aren't gonna take it anymore. A wildfire's been lit (metaphorically speaking)!

sndymorn

Gaddafi has bullets and methods to deliver same. Opposition has delivery systems but no bullets (rockets etc.).
Intervention is needed from U.N. now. Air support should be provided to opposition so that the Mad General cannot move around. Perhaps ship in some bullets for opposition so they can defend themselves. Let the General have Tripoli for now and he will eventually fall.
Here in USA, all outlets for news are available including Fox and Al-Jazeera (BOTH of which are doing a good job of reporting this situation). We can be informed if we choose.