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Why was Buddha reluctant to ordain women?
hermitwin
Veteran
I believe Buddha was very reluctant to ordain women. Why? Please comment. Thanks.
0
Comments
Probably because of the safety and cultural issues associated with it.
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhikkhuni_ordination
I find this the most likely. After all, in northern India, it later became a custom that widows were expected to hurl themselves upon their husband's pyre ("because a woman is nothing without a man"). Women were basically regarded as worthless if they weren't home-makers. The Buddha would have received a great deal of social censure for allowing women to choose a lifestyle outside of being baby-making machines. If he had made the male and female sanghas -equal-, I imagine the Buddhadhamma would no longer have been able to spread due to the social rejection that would result.
...that may actually be worse.
For one thing, not only were women treated like property by their families and/or husbands during this time, but other renunciates (especially brahmins) would most likely have had a hard time living with women in a monastic setting as women renunciates were such a rare thing. The fact that Buddha gave the going forth to women at all is actually quite amazing.
Think about his position. On the one hand, he realized that women have the same potential to achieve awakening as men; but on the other, he realized that the continued existence of the Sangha depended upon internal and external harmony. Not only did everyone in the monastic community need to get along, but it depended on the lay-community for material support. Allowing women to go forth meant that they were no longer under the authority of their families and/or husbands, which probably angered many people because it upset the status quo.
Moreover, during this time in India, it was generally believed that women didn't have the same spiritual capacities as men, which most renunciates were. The Buddha, on the other hand, knew that women had the same spiritual capabilities, but he was probably aware that accepting them into his monastic community would cause a fair amount of friction within the lay-community, as well as within the monastic community itself, which consisted of men who, in all likelihood, may not have been happy about having to live in a monastic setting with members of the opposite sex.
My own opinion is that the Buddha was exceptionally progressive for his time (approximately 400 BCE). For example, it's clear to me that women had just as important of a place in the Buddha's monastic Sangha as men, which is evident by the Therigatha of the Khuddaka Nikaya and the Bhikkhuni-samyutta of the Samyutta Nikaya.
In addition, I'm equally convinced that female lay-followers weren't devalued by the Buddha either, and this is evident by the many accounts of such women and their high status throughout the Suttas (e.g., Visakha, Migara's Mother, who was one of the three chief supporters of the Buddha).
great lawyer.
I also read that Buddha said by allowing women ordination, the dhamma would not last long. Same arguments?
Even if these eight rules were formulated by the Buddha, it wasn't necessarily due to a negative view of women. For example, the rules could easily have been to protect the bhikkhunis from danger, help maintain healthy and harmonious relations between the two groups, or procedures for ensuring the proper education and support of bhikkhunis, as both Ven. Prof. Dhammavihari and Sujato Bhikkhu have suggested.
In other words, if the Buddha did formulate these rules, he was most likely in a tight spot and arguably did his best to accommodate all sides involved so as to preserve harmony within the community as a whole, and by consequence, preserving the Dhamma from internal conflict.
Plus, the Buddha may very well have repealed these rules just before his death when he said "the Sangha may, when I am gone, abolish the lesser and minor rules" (DN 16). But since the usually thorough Ananda didn't bother to ask which rules the 'lesser and minor rules' were, the Sangha decided not to abolish any of the rules after his death.
It is politically incorrect, but men and women are different, not only during Buddha's time but in 2011. Boys are more likely to be autistic. Men are more aggressive, maybe because of testosterone. Women are more likely to express their emotions.
While we can speculate on the reasons for these differences, we cant deny them.
Of course there are men who are more agressive than men. Likewise men who are more emotional than women. But these are the minority.
Buddha said that women are just as capable to reach nirvana as men. Yet he was reluctant to ordain women. But he relented.
Instead of questioning the validity of the sutta. I would suggest that Buddha saw the difference between men and women. And decided that it would be better not to ordain them. I find it hard to accept that Buddha would bow to social pressure in his consideration. He had the wisdom to see beyond that. I dont claim to know the reason, but it must be a good one for him to say no 3 times.
And you would have guessed by now, I am a man who suppress my emotions an d hide my tears.
Like Jesus spending 40 days and 40 nights in the desert. that period of time just denotes - a long time....
I imagine a less clear mind might not feel reluctance at all, and simply follow the social conventions of the time. Socially, I would consider any reluctance people observed to be something born of the natural tension that arises when we swim upstream. Like taking a deep breath before confronting a large, chaotic social mechanism...
With warmth,
Matt
Example, women could be raped, so they must be protected by the monks. It follows monasticism becomes like the household life.
Or women get inspired by the Buddha & leave their husbands to become nuns. The husbands get angry and take revenge on the monks.
An example is the Apostle Thomas, who travelled to India to evangelise after the departure of Jesus. Thomas picked up female groupies as his disciples and eventually their ex-husbands murdered Thomas.
Regards
Not through any negative influence of the women, but because of the inherent weakness of men's flesh and desires......
This is another reason for reluctance to ordain women. Often female disciples attach themselves to male gurus, like a wife attaches herself to a husband.
if catholic priests today have a bad rep, it's no great leap to think of what menfolk in those days might have been capable of, ordination, or no ordination... Exactly so.......
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,2666,0,0,1,0
Mostly, these "monks" are men ordained to undergo rehab for drug problems, etc.
But recently, one very famous Ajahn was disrobed for having his female devotees procure him young virgin girls. He believed he would gain spiritual power from them.
But I have never heard of monks raping nuns (although there have been plenty of monks & nuns like Stephen Batchelor & his wife who disrobe in order to get it on).
In Sri Lanka, where monks are held in very high esteem, rape by monks was never prosecuted until one incident in the 1990's, which was precedent-setting. Being above the law leads to lawlessness. but that seems to be changing.
In Taiwan, traditionally monks and nuns were housed in the same building, and so nuns were raped routinely. But also, in the 1990's, one nun couldn't take it any longer and took her monk-rapist to court, causing a firestorm of controversy. Also in Taiwan, a group of 24 novices took their abbot to court for sexual molestation. Times, mercifully, are changing for the better, slowly but surely.
One of our members who belongs to a fairly new and progressive sect of Ch'an from Taiwan reports that monks and nuns are housed in separate buildings, and the teacher ranks have been professionalized; all attend Buddhist universities where they study ethics and psychology in addition to a curriculum in Buddhism. This sounds like a good model.
And by the way, this is a new thread, just today or yesterday. Why was it sunk?