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Krishnamurti vs Buddhism
hermitwin
Veteran
Learning meditation = conformity, cant lead you to truth?
0
Comments
It's waffle, frankly, and I really got a bit bored listening to him pause meaningfully once too often.
He died in the 1987 I think.
I could be wrong but of course I seldom am. Its a curse.
/Victor
At one point, he was more highly regarded than Dalai Lama.
Speech at UN.
Watch the clip thats not exactly it. My teacher says you hit a point in meditation where you get very interested in it and do it much more often. Then at another point you realize that no matter how much you meditate it is no use. Some other direction is needed. Like the zen story of the monk who asks 'what are you doing' to someone meditating. And the guy says 'I'm meditating to become a buddha' and then he starts polishing a tile. And the guy asks 'what are you doing' and he says I am polishing this tile to make it a buddha.
But that koan is not saying the mind is a mirror and a tile becomes a mirror. It has a different meaning. Related to 'gaining mind'. By grasping we don't end grasping. Meditating with the idea of an I becoming a buddha is flawed from the beginning. Not that it is doomed to failure. I think meditation is a great place to explore and the stillness krishnamurti mentions is always there. We find it in moments of delight. Even saddam hussein found this stillness at times.
And it was difficult to penetrate what Krishnamurti meant. I mean I can easily assume that he was into a conceptual framework of division between order and disorder, but if you listen to him he is just using words. He is not a buddhist teacher and so the way he expresses himself is not traditional.
I wish there had been more dialogue, so that his meanings could be teased out.
The root of medicine and meditate is the same. And they go back to the word measure. Not comparing something to an arbitrary scale. But you measure the engine parts so they work. You see the connections. You can fix a clock even if you don't know what in beans you are doing because you open to it. Sometimes even you quote 'know' what you are doing, but that is working memory combined with meditation (as the now is always different).
and you are sold that I am 'sold' :P
What would enlightenment be? A part of my teacher's teaching is not to find why to meditate, but rather to find what we wish for. And then to ask ourselves why we wish that.
Very sharp, Jeff. Your sharp mind is a good tool for keeping my mind supple. Let's see if I can also use it to dig us out of the ditch we are in. Meanwhile, I am heading out to the driving range to keep my body supple. Don't go away.
My teacher's meditation instruction is to do nothing on the inbreath which symbolizes that perhaps the gradual nature or the nature that it is a non-doing without an expectation and on the outbreath you notice the breath with 25% and open to the suchness or spaciousness. At first I thought I had to figure out what space was and that can be deadening or interesting either way it is part of the meditation.
Some teachers such as Jon Kabatt Zinn have you do noticing the breath in and out for a long time to build stability. Or noticing the breath and the body as a whole. Or noticing sound. Then if you wish do brief 3 minute meditations where you allow. Just ALLOW.
Whats interesting to me is why Zinn says to only do that when you are quite stable and why my teacher gave her method from day one. It is an interesting question. My teacher is on retreat so I am trying to only ask her clear questions or when I am very 'stuck' I suppose whether I 'am' or whether I think that.
Then my practice is 5 minutes walking meditation with perhaps the sensation of my feet or else the sounds that I return to (and notice what drew me away). Next some kind of exercise these vary: push ups, stretches I learned in soccer, riding horse stance to build thighs/cardio, I hope to learn some yoga. Then I listen to a dharma teaching 5-10 minutes where I have attention span. Then I do some household chore as appears needing done.
So that is my practice although I also have thoughts and enquiries and perhaps the forum is part of my practice.
Sorry, man. I have trouble experiencing your experiences.
Alternatively if you have the idea 'meditation is a panacea' then it is displeasing and you lose faith and think oh I am not good at this.
If you are unsure if it will help or hurt but you are willing to try it for awhile then you have less expectations. Which makes it less likely you will have a bad experience. Because when you have displeasure its just displeasure and its not constructed as a big deal.
Its like you have a big crush and its always a disaster. But if you are just intrigued and investigating then you don't sway either way so much. You are always testing.
And you say?
I have gotten a pretty good high, but with meditation you never know what you are going to get.
I meditate because of something deep that I don't understand or verbalize. And also because I am looking for things to cope with 'stress' and perhaps that is what in buddhism is known as dukkha or at least my best understanding.
People sometimes pursue meditation like having a different kind of sex. But in the buddhist path that leads to liberation meditation is part of being aware of what you are doing. Every high has a low. That wheel keeps spinning until you get a sense of humor about it doesn't it? Well even a laugh has a low. But thats what you are aware of.
Its almost a paradox. We are going to be aware some of the time anyhow. But the meditation paradigm allows us to discover and appreciate what we already are. An awareness. We are an awareness whether we get sex or not.
Now, we are getting somewhere. Meditation is for stress relief and Buddhist call that sitting with suchness? Life is indeed stressful. Let's take financial stress. The rational approach in dealing with it is either by increasing my net worth/ earning power or reducing my expenses. If there is no way to make ends meet, I take up meditation and sit with suchness to cope with the stress? Is that how it works?
Look underneath the wish/thinking. Why do you wish that? Is it an infinite regression of conditions or could you say there is something beyond words? What else do we have?
"The rational approach in dealing with it is either by increasing my net worth/ earning power or reducing my expenses."
Possessions do not extinguish ALL kinds of stress. But I agree simplification and hard work produce results, maybe that is a different lens for you? A mental lens instead of kodak.
We've already discussed the mental formations or motivation and that is one of the 5 skandas or 'bags' that are impermanent and changing.
Meditation is a process of purification of ore into a buddha. It takes awhile
Form -----> Morality
Feeling (good bad neutral) ------> Concentration
Perception --------> Wisdom
Motivation -------> Deliverance
Consciousness ------> perception (notes unclear), knowledge, and deliverance
The Immortal Friend
I sat dreaming in a room of great silence.
The early morning was still and breathless,
The great blue mountains stood against the dark
skies, cold and clear,
Round the dark log house
The black and yellow birds were welcoming the sun.
I sat on the floor, with legs crossed, meditating,
Forgetting the sunlit mountains,
The birds,
The immense silence,
And the golden sun.
I lost the feel of my body,
My limbs were motionless,
Relaxed and at peace.
A great joy of unfathomable depth filled my heart.
Eager and keen was my mind, concentrated.
Lost to the transient world,
I was full of strength.
As the Eastern breeze
That suddenly springs into being
And calms the weary world,
There in front of me
Seated cross-legged,
As the world knows Him
In His yellow robes, simple and magnificent,
Was the Teacher of Teachers.
Looking at me,
Motionless the Mighty Being sat.
I looked and bowed my head.
My body bent forward of itself.
That one look
Showed the progress of the world,
Showed the immense distance between the world
And the greatest of it's Teachers.
How little it understood,
And how much He gave.
How joyously He soared,
Escaping from birth and death,
From it's tyranny and entangling wheel.
Enlightenment attained,
He gave to the world, as the flower gives
It's scent,
The Truth.
As I looked
At the sacred feet that once trod the happy
Dust of India,
My heart poured forth its devotion,
Limitless and unfathomable,
Without restraint and without effort.
http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk001a.htm