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I agree with Federica, that a lot of the debate about whether or not there is sin is in the semantics. Having said that, however, after years if travel in Thailand, I can tell you that you would have a hard time counting all the Buddhist temples there that have murals depicting the ravages of hell for those who commit "sins". And those many, many murals were painted under the direction of the Sangha.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Buddhism in the Orient has many different aspects... I am advised by those who have been there (and I would emphasise, I haven't so it's hearsay) that there is much local custom, superstition and some forms of magical mysticism occasionally woven into Buddhism so that the whole package is somewhat actually less than...."whole".....
There's actually an incredible mish-mash of different stuff all thrown in, and this also insinuates itself into the very fabric of Buddhist lore, practice and teaching. Temples and monks aren't immune....
i think to conservative traditional buddhists, sin would be breaking the precepts, etc etc, to a christian breaking the ten commandments, there's a lot more similarity here than differences, i think the reason so many people want to believe there is no sin in buddhism, is because they left christianity because they couldn't follow the rules so they become buddhists, but still don't follow the rules, and try to make the rules for other buddhist to follow their own lazy doctrines,
being a good buddhist is just as hard as being a good christian, fortunately the rules of buddhism are not being made by new buddhist forum members, now if you want to be a bad buddhist, that's anybody's right, but don't try to make any rules for anybody else.
< blockquote rel="zenff In Christianity (the way I was brought up anyways) breaking a moral rule, even just once, makes our soul stained and intolerable in the eyes of God. Unless our sins are washed away and so on…
So I think in Buddhist religious notions there is: - a more realistic expectation about human behavior - better proportionality regarding the consequences of our actions - reward for the good things we do - room for improvement Which makes even strict Buddhists appear lighthearted next to most Christians.
My experience of following a Christian religion was very different to this .... I did come across individuals who would project such ideas about God and the nature of sin at me ... my response was then as it would be to a Christian now who held such beliefs ... why did Jesus need to die, die for our sins if we are to continue to feel such shame at our human weaknesses and frailty - if God created us, surely he knew what he was doing, in giving us free will he surely desired for us to work it out for ourselves.
Dear compassionate_warrior, Sinning is a foreign word to me.
Dear Cloud, Unskillful karma is the word then.
Dear federica, I like that. Everything is up to you. The mind is the forerunner.
Dear vinlyn, Do you think Buddhism in Thailand has adopted local i.e. Thai elements like what Federica says? By the way, there is a very nice Thai horror movie about a wife who came back from the dead called ‘Nang Nak’. And I heard it is based on a true story and in Bangkok, there is even a temple dedicated to her.
Dear former monk John, I thought precepts and commandments are different. One is in the form of command and in a case like that, it should not be broken at all unless you want to commit a sin.
Dear andyrobyn Breaking a precept will not stain one’s soul, I suppose. So, there should be no sinning here. In any case, if we have stained our soul, who else could clean it up better than we do. And we should learn to be responsible!
Interesting to look at the origin of words. Particularly when they come to us through one or more translations. The word "sin", for instance, came to us today as a translation of the Greek word "harmatia". This, in turn, meant a flaw or weakness in a person's character or "missing the mark". I wonder (but sadly do not know) which word in the teachings (Pali or Sanskrit) is translated as "sin". Does anyone know? Could be it would shape the discussion differently if we found out in the words of the buddhas this all meant something like "try harder next time" instead of "damned to hell realm for innumerable kalpas". ...but yes, I have conventionally done so; and repented; and vowed to do better; and "stumbled" (thank you, Federica). Thanks also to all of you for your practice,
Dear vinlyn, Do you think Buddhism in Thailand has adopted local i.e. Thai elements like what Federica says? By the way, there is a very nice Thai horror movie about a wife who came back from the dead called ‘Nang Nak’. And I heard it is based on a true story and in Bangkok, there is even a temple dedicated to her.
Federica, in part said, "There's actually an incredible mish-mash of different stuff all thrown in, and this also insinuates itself into the very fabric of Buddhist lore, practice and teaching. Temples and monks aren't immune...."
It's very interesting to go to the Wikipedia page for "Schools Of Buddhism". The many splintered Buddhist interpretations there all have varying degrees of similarities and differences amongst themselves. I spent a couple of years in the Buddhist forum on thaivsia, and there Theravada Buddhism reigns...literally. Often people were not allowed to post very much about comparative religion, particularly comparisons with "Western" religions, but often even within the various schools of Buddhism. For example, Mahayana Buddhism was pretty much dismissed as being invalid. I am trying to be a very open-minded Buddhist. I came to Buddhism through Thai Buddhsim, but any Buddhist of any school would be a person I would listen to (at least for a while) as long as he or she was sharing with me something that could be considered Buddhist wisdom.
In my view, the only pure Buddhism was that which came from Buddha's own mouth, and we really don't exactly what that was. After all, the Dhamma was not written down until long after Buddha had passed from this earth.
So the first question could be, is Theravada Buddhism the most correct school of Buddhism. I don't know. It just happens to be the form with which I first became familiar.
Then, there are the regional differences between countries and even regions as to how Theravada Buddhism is practiced. Even within the various regions of Thailand you will find significant differences in temple architecture (and remember, temple architecture is based on specific religious beliefs), temple murals (for example, murals of Buddhist hell are much more common in some regions than others), Buddhist folklore, etc.
And yes, there is no question that in Thailand that animism is mixed in with Buddhism to the extent the Thais cannot separate the two. In fact, you will see devout Thai Buddhists commonly "paying respect" to Hindu deities, and often intensely praying to those statues. We often speak of the importance of compassion in Buddhist thought. I didn't see that as a very important aspect of Thai Theravada Buddhism, however. Yet to me, it's an essential element of any lifestyle choice, including my religion. And in fact, speaking of religion, we Buddhists cannot even agree as to whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy or both (and a lot of that discussion may be semantics).
So for me, I won't say that a particular school or movement within Buddhism is right or wrong. I won't say that -- for example -- the Mahayana Buddhists are headed in the wrong direction, because when I have read books by the Dalai Lama, I have found a great deal of wisdom there.
As to Nang Nak that you mentioned, yes that is a very famous/popular story. There have been multiple movies made of that ghost story. The temple dedicated to her was just a few kilometers from where I lived in Bangkok, and in recent years there has been quite a controversy over which section of Bangkok it is located in...the locals are quite intense about the whole issue. I look at that legend and say poppycock, and yet I also know that I am on dangerous ground when I began to dismiss other peoples' religious beliefs.
Dear Paccekasatta , In an earlier post, I remember 'sin' is referred to as poison in Tibetan. If we happen to have poison in us, I suppose then we don't sin; it's the poison which is sinning. Now, I am starting to wonder if there is a Pali or Sanskrit word for sinning. Thanks!
Dear vinlyn,
Thanks for the long explanation and the info about Nang Nak. We over here have Buddhists from the Theravada and Mahayana sect. Buddhists here are mostly Chinese and the way I see it,those who are proficient in English will go to Theravada temples and those proficient in Chinese will go to Mahayana temples.The core of the teaching is normally the same: There is always the five precepts and the four noble truths. Chanting in Theravada temples is in romanized Pali and most of the time, I am puzzled by what the words mean. In Mahayana temples, you'd have to know Chinese to chant and failing that, there is a romanized text and as usual, I am puzzled by all the words. But some people really enjoy chanting.
Comments
I am advised by those who have been there (and I would emphasise, I haven't so it's hearsay) that there is much local custom, superstition and some forms of magical mysticism occasionally woven into Buddhism so that the whole package is somewhat actually less than...."whole".....
There's actually an incredible mish-mash of different stuff all thrown in, and this also insinuates itself into the very fabric of Buddhist lore, practice and teaching. Temples and monks aren't immune....
being a good buddhist is just as hard as being a good christian, fortunately the rules of buddhism are not being made by new buddhist forum members, now if you want to be a bad buddhist, that's anybody's right, but don't try to make any rules for anybody else.
<
blockquote rel="zenff
In Christianity (the way I was brought up anyways) breaking a moral rule, even just once, makes our soul stained and intolerable in the eyes of God. Unless our sins are washed away and so on…
So I think in Buddhist religious notions there is:
- a more realistic expectation about human behavior
- better proportionality regarding the consequences of our actions
- reward for the good things we do
- room for improvement
Which makes even strict Buddhists appear lighthearted next to most Christians.
My experience of following a Christian religion was very different to this .... I did come across individuals who would project such ideas about God and the nature of sin at me ... my response was then as it would be to a Christian now who held such beliefs ... why did Jesus need to die, die for our sins if we are to continue to feel such shame at our human weaknesses and frailty - if God created us, surely he knew what he was doing, in giving us free will he surely desired for us to work it out for ourselves.
Sinning is a foreign word to me.
Dear Cloud,
Unskillful karma is the word then.
Dear federica,
I like that. Everything is up to you. The mind is the forerunner.
Dear vinlyn,
Do you think Buddhism in Thailand has adopted local i.e. Thai elements like what Federica says? By the way, there is a very nice Thai horror movie about a wife who came back from the dead called ‘Nang Nak’. And I heard it is based on a true story and in Bangkok, there is even a temple dedicated to her.
Dear former monk John,
I thought precepts and commandments are different. One is in the form of command and in a case like that, it should not be broken at all unless you want to commit a sin.
Dear andyrobyn
Breaking a precept will not stain one’s soul, I suppose. So, there should be no sinning here. In any case, if we have stained our soul, who else could clean it up better than we do. And we should learn to be responsible!
I wonder (but sadly do not know) which word in the teachings (Pali or Sanskrit) is translated as "sin". Does anyone know?
Could be it would shape the discussion differently if we found out in the words of the buddhas this all meant something like "try harder next time" instead of "damned to hell realm for innumerable kalpas".
...but yes, I have conventionally done so; and repented; and vowed to do better; and "stumbled" (thank you, Federica).
Thanks also to all of you for your practice,
It's very interesting to go to the Wikipedia page for "Schools Of Buddhism". The many splintered Buddhist interpretations there all have varying degrees of similarities and differences amongst themselves. I spent a couple of years in the Buddhist forum on thaivsia, and there Theravada Buddhism reigns...literally. Often people were not allowed to post very much about comparative religion, particularly comparisons with "Western" religions, but often even within the various schools of Buddhism. For example, Mahayana Buddhism was pretty much dismissed as being invalid. I am trying to be a very open-minded Buddhist. I came to Buddhism through Thai Buddhsim, but any Buddhist of any school would be a person I would listen to (at least for a while) as long as he or she was sharing with me something that could be considered Buddhist wisdom.
In my view, the only pure Buddhism was that which came from Buddha's own mouth, and we really don't exactly what that was. After all, the Dhamma was not written down until long after Buddha had passed from this earth.
So the first question could be, is Theravada Buddhism the most correct school of Buddhism. I don't know. It just happens to be the form with which I first became familiar.
Then, there are the regional differences between countries and even regions as to how Theravada Buddhism is practiced. Even within the various regions of Thailand you will find significant differences in temple architecture (and remember, temple architecture is based on specific religious beliefs), temple murals (for example, murals of Buddhist hell are much more common in some regions than others), Buddhist folklore, etc.
And yes, there is no question that in Thailand that animism is mixed in with Buddhism to the extent the Thais cannot separate the two. In fact, you will see devout Thai Buddhists commonly "paying respect" to Hindu deities, and often intensely praying to those statues. We often speak of the importance of compassion in Buddhist thought. I didn't see that as a very important aspect of Thai Theravada Buddhism, however. Yet to me, it's an essential element of any lifestyle choice, including my religion. And in fact, speaking of religion, we Buddhists cannot even agree as to whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy or both (and a lot of that discussion may be semantics).
So for me, I won't say that a particular school or movement within Buddhism is right or wrong. I won't say that -- for example -- the Mahayana Buddhists are headed in the wrong direction, because when I have read books by the Dalai Lama, I have found a great deal of wisdom there.
As to Nang Nak that you mentioned, yes that is a very famous/popular story. There have been multiple movies made of that ghost story. The temple dedicated to her was just a few kilometers from where I lived in Bangkok, and in recent years there has been quite a controversy over which section of Bangkok it is located in...the locals are quite intense about the whole issue. I look at that legend and say poppycock, and yet I also know that I am on dangerous ground when I began to dismiss other peoples' religious beliefs.
In an earlier post, I remember 'sin' is referred to as poison in Tibetan. If we happen to have poison in us, I suppose then we don't sin; it's the poison which is sinning.
Now, I am starting to wonder if there is a Pali or Sanskrit word for sinning. Thanks!
Dear vinlyn,
Thanks for the long explanation and the info about Nang Nak. We over here have Buddhists from the Theravada and Mahayana sect. Buddhists here are mostly Chinese and the way I see it,those who are proficient in English will go to Theravada temples and those proficient in Chinese will go to Mahayana temples.The core of the teaching is normally the same: There is always the five precepts and the four noble truths. Chanting in Theravada temples is in romanized Pali and most of the time, I am puzzled by what the words mean. In Mahayana temples, you'd have to know Chinese to chant and failing that, there is a romanized text and as usual, I am puzzled by all the words. But some people really enjoy chanting.